1483 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

Like conventional victory has ever been in the scope of ME. Honestly, how anyone would think conventional victory is possible after the ME1 ending where Sovereign just goes 'lollll, lemme get inside the Citadel while you peasants tickle me' is beyond me.

 

And people have to realize here that Sovereing messed up by taking control of Saren. Surely, it might've had reasons to do so, but that's the reason it dies. Not because the combined might of the Citadel and Alliance fleet is too much. 

 

Well they could have easily handwaved by a number of things including: explaining that Sovereign was a bulkier than usual Reaper (given that it was left by itself) or no dreadnoughts were present. . Not to say that's what they should have done. My first playthrough of ME3 I thought that was what they were aiming for since they hardly spent any time dealing with the Crucible in the story or explaining what it did, which I thought was a set up for *twist* it turning out to be a Reaper trap and Victory Fleet then wins or loses. I mean after Earth and Mars, the story up to the last mission doesn't actually have Shepard losing to the Reapers on screen (they lose to Cerberus) which I thought was the tone set-up for the conventional victory. Either way, since ME2 didn't really move the main story along the game was going to end contrived one way or another and conventional victory isn't any worse than convenient super weapon that no one has ever used before.

 

Also, I believe it wasn't until ME3 that they officially established the Reaper feedback loop problem, before then it was written that the controlled Saren and Sovereign's death merely happened near to each other.

[KaiserShep]

Blow up the dark Citadel relay, and leave the ones that survive the blast to rot in the blackness of the void, I say. Rabble rabble rabble.

[von uber]

No. It's called the Crucible for a reason. Only if you (i.e. the galaxy) manage to dock it against all odds do you pass the test.


Like conventional victory has ever been in the scope of ME. Honestly, how anyone would think conventional victory is possible after the ME1 ending where Sovereign just goes 'lollll, lemme get inside the Citadel while you peasants tickle me' is beyond me.

And people have to realize here that Sovereing messed up by taking control of Saren. Surely, it might've had reasons to do so, but that's the reason it dies. Not because the combined might of the Citadel and Alliance fleet is too much.

Before retcon-o-rama, the alliance only lost 8 ships (cruisers?) in that battle.

[Farangbaa]

Before retcon-o-rama, the alliance only lost 8 ships (cruisers?) in that battle.

 

The point being.. what exactly?

 

If Sovereign's barriers wouldn't have overloaded, the entire 5th fleet and Citadel fleet would have been destroyed. Before the barrier overload, Sovereign did not have a scratch.

[voteDC]

I assume that its aim is to find harmony between the two domains of life. The Protheans winning the war against the synthetics of their cycle does not necessarily solve the problem, since that only means other synthetics can come along later and prove to be a bigger problem than anything they've faced before. That said, the reapers are quite the instigators. Who knows how things would have turned out with the geth if Sovereign didn't decide to troll the galaxy with the heretics.

The Reapers saw the Protheans winning and could have left them for another few years to see if they could come up with a solution. They'd waited 50,000 years after all. Would another 1,000 really make a difference?

Rather could it have been that the Protheans were on the cusp on reaching the same technological level as them, after all we know just one department had cracked mass relay technology, and were afraid of losing their position as 'top of the food chain'.

[von uber]

The point being.. what exactly?

If Sovereign's barriers wouldn't have overloaded, the entire 5th fleet and Citadel fleet would have been destroyed. Before the barrier overload, Sovereign did not have a scratch.

Only takes 4 dreadnoughts to take one out though. Sovereign used the geth fleet to cover its attack then charged straight through. The alliance arrived after, it was the geth doing the damage.
That whole overload shield thing makes no sense. At all.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Only takes 4 dreadnoughts to take one out though. Sovereign used the geth fleet to cover its attack then charged straight through. The alliance arrived after, it was the geth doing the damage.
That whole overload shield thing makes no sense. At all.

.

Given that the Asari had 19 dreadnoughts, and the Destiny Ascension had more firepower than the rest of the Asari Fleet combined in its main gun -- that's in the game folks. Therefore, since it takes 4 dreadnoughts to take out a Reaper, shouldn't the Destiny Ascension been able to one shot kill Sovereign? Oh, but it never fired! Why? Because that would have denied you the opportunity of having Commander Shepard save the day!!! And have that amazing scene where a frigate's gun blows a hole through a Reaper Capital ship. That must have gotten Joker all cocky about trying to save the Normandy from that big bad Collector ship. Yeah, that's what got Shepard killed. This is what is known as video game logic.

[Mordokai]

.Given that the Asari had 19 dreadnoughts, and the Destiny Ascension had more firepower than the rest of the Asari Fleet combined in its main gun -- that's in the game folks. Therefore, since it takes 4 dreadnoughts to take out a Reaper, shouldn't the Destiny Ascension been able to one shot kill Sovereign? Oh, but it never fired! Why? Because that would have denied you the opportunity of having Commander Shepard save the day!!! And have that amazing scene where a frigate's gun blows a hole through a Reaper Capital ship. That must have gotten Joker all cocky about trying to save the Normandy from that big bad Collector ship. Yeah, that's what got Shepard killed. This is what is known as video game logic.

 

Oh you know, they were busy extracting the Council... you know, the three most important people in galactic policy.

 

Nevermind that it was just kinda stupid to put those three people in the biggest possible target(who obviously forgot how to fire, as you mentioned), where they could do just as well in a random dreadnought, or a frigate... or anything, really.

[KaiserShep]

Actually, evacuating the Council on the Destiny Ascension was probably still the best course of action. Any random frigate or dreadnought would be much more likely to be overwhelmed and destroyed by the geth ships, regardless of size. Being a smaller target wouldn't necessarily make them safer; it may just mean that there's less ship to withstand the barrage of missile fire.

[themikefest]

We know Sovereign's power is in its front. It was able to destroy those ships since it had all its power directed to its front shields. How tough would Sovereign of been if Hackett had all ships fire on Sovereign from behind? Bioware only did that to show how powerful a reaper is, but at the same time showed it had a weakness, its backside. Had Hackett fired on Sovereign's backside, the loss of ships would've been less and possibly of destroyed Sovereign without having Shepard fighting robosaren.

 

Throughout the whole trilogy we never see anyone firing at the back of a reaper only the front. In the Battle of Palaven, the turains were able to destroy several Capital reaper ships by firing on their backside.

 

As far as the Destiny Asenscion goes, why didn't it fire its weapons even if it was been overwelmed? Also why couldn't Hackett look over the battle and determine if the Ascension could be saved. He knew how big a force he had not Shepard.

[von uber]

Yeah never understood that choice. Why would shepard know what to do and not the commander of the fleet? Especially as it turns out you can save the Ascension and the council and still defeat sovereign without too much fuss.

[Farangbaa]

Yeah never understood that choice. Why would shepard know what to do and not the commander of the fleet? Especially as it turns out you can save the Ascension and the council and still defeat sovereign without too much fuss.

 

Cause it's a game. 

 

And you're Space Jesus

 

edit:

 

Speaking of Space Jesus: http://tcfan1.wordpr...e-jesus-theory/

 

Apparantly, when people REAAAAAAALLLY want to like something but find out they don't, they come up with elaborate theories... 

[von uber]

"Commander, we have Councillor Tevos on the comm.."
"Save me Jebus!"

[CronoDragoon]

In the interest of not multiplying entities unnecessarily, it'd be nice if the local blast comes from the Citadel Relay, assuming that's located right about where the Crucible docked to. That way we don't have the local blast emanating from a different mechanism than the one all the other blasts emanate from

 

Does the scale work for that?

 

In the video the local blast certainly seems to be coming from the same place that the relay blast comes from. In any case it likely needs to be hooked up to the Citadel, as we are told no one got the Crucible to work without the Catalyst, which is what necessitated all this to begin with.

 

No. It's called the Crucible for a reason. Only if you (i.e. the galaxy)  manage to dock it against all odds do you pass the test. 

 

 

Like conventional victory has ever been in the scope of ME. Honestly, how anyone would think conventional victory is possible after the ME1 ending where Sovereign just goes 'lollll, lemme get inside the Citadel while you peasants tickle me' is beyond me.

 

And people have to realize here that Sovereing messed up by taking control of Saren. Surely, it might've had reasons to do so, but that's the reason it dies. Not because the combined might of the Citadel and Alliance fleet is too much. 

 

To be clear the probability of conventional victory to me sits right around zero, much lower than the probability the Catalyst is telling the truth/lying but picking an option leads to a desirable result.

[Iakus]

I'm not quite clear on something. What are you saying Shepard should, realistically, do? Sit there and hope that the Crucible will fire, right? How long is it realistic to sit there and hope? Longer than the Crucible's got, sure. But are you talking minutes, hours, days?

 

For myself, I'd say Bioware never should have made such a terrible, half-baked ending to begin with.

[Iakus]

No. It's called the Crucible for a reason. Only if you (i.e. the galaxy)  manage to dock it against all odds do you pass the test. 

 

 

 

The Crucible got its name from the Systems Alliance.  Hackett called it "Project Crucible" long before they had a clue what it did.

 

Starjar didn't even know it existed.  Or even that knowledge of it existed in this cycle, before it was deployed.

[Iakus]

The point being.. what exactly?

 

If Sovereign's barriers wouldn't have overloaded, the entire 5th fleet and Citadel fleet would have been destroyed. Before the barrier overload, Sovereign did not have a scratch.

 

Twitter-canon states that 5th Fleet would have killed Sovereign on its own, eventually.  But they would have taken much heavier casualties

[themikefest]

Twitter-canon states that 5th Fleet would have killed Sovereign on its own, eventually.  But they would have taken much heavier casualties

If Hackett had any common sense(which he doesn't) he would've had the fleet fire on Sovereign from behind limiting the losses to a minimum

[Vigilant111]

The Crucible got its name from the Systems Alliance.  Hackett called it "Project Crucible" long before they had a clue what it did.

 

Starjar didn't even know it existed.  Or even that knowledge of it existed in this cycle, before it was deployed.

 

It is kinda odd they managed to keep the project in secret for this long (when we have all these indoctrinated agents floating around?), the Reaper Intelligence Department must be very incompetent

 

What is even more strange is the Crucible actually managed to dock, when you watch the cinematic scene "Protect it at all costs", the device is only protected by a small deployment of ships

[voteDC]

 

Throughout the whole trilogy we never see anyone firing at the back of a reaper only the front. In the Battle of Palaven, the turains were able to destroy several Capital reaper ships by firing on their backside.

 

Where is that mentioned?

If true, what could they have done with Thannix Cannons equipped to faster more agile ships like the Normandy?

 

It is kinda odd they managed to keep the project in secret for this long (when we have all these indoctrinated agents floating around?), the Reaper Intelligence Department must be very incompetent

That is one of the reasons that right up until the end I was convinced the Crucible  was a Reaper trap. How could they miss all those resources being directed to one location.

[themikefest]

 

 

Where is that mentioned?

If true, what could they have done with Thannix Cannons equipped to faster more agile ships like the Normandy?

 

When Taetrus fell, the turians knew little about the Reapers except that they wanted to enrage the turians. Staying calm, the turians massed in force around Palaven, their homeworld. Fleet Admiral Irix Coronati, in what became known as the "Fifteen-Minute Plan," stationed only two carriers, Undaunted and Resolute, near the system's relay. When the Reaper fleet emerged, the carriers launched swarms of unmanned fighters and spy drones. These were quickly destroyed, but the drones transmitted vital data on the Reapers' effective range, fleet composition, and exact location. The turians' other ships then deployed to defend the system in earnest.

 

Knowing that the Reapers' weapons had a longer effective range than any of his own, Coronati made a short, daring FTL jump--landing his dreadnoughts in the middle of the Reaper fleet. The dreadnoughts then turned to line up their main guns on the Reapers, which also needed to turn to fire on the turians. This ploy used the Reapers' size against them--because they could turn faster, the turian dreadnoughts locked targets first, and their concentrated firepower downed several Reaper capital ships.

 

http://masseffect.wi.../The_Reaper_War

[Iakus]

 

 

 

Where is that mentioned?

If true, what could they have done with Thannix Cannons equipped to faster more agile ships like the Normandy?

 

That is one of the reasons that right up until the end I was convinced the Crucible  was a Reaper trap. How could they miss all those resources being directed to one location.

 

 

 

From The Battle of Palaven:

 

When Taetrus fell, the turians knew little about the Reapers except that they wanted to enrage the turians. Staying calm, the turians massed in force around Palaven, their homeworld. Fleet Admiral Irix Coronati, in what became known as the "Fifteen-Minute Plan," stationed only two carriers, Undaunted and Resolute, near the system's relay. When the Reaper fleet emerged, the carriers launched swarms of unmanned fighters and spy drones. These were quickly destroyed, but the drones transmitted vital data on the Reapers' effective range, fleet composition, and exact location. The turians' other ships then deployed to defend the system in earnest.

Knowing that the Reapers' weapons had a longer effective range than any of his own, Coronati made a short, daring FTL jump--landing his dreadnoughts in the middle of the Reaper fleet. The dreadnoughts then turned to line up their main guns on the Reapers, which also needed to turn to fire on the turians. This ploy used the Reapers' size against them--because they could turn faster, the turian dreadnoughts locked targets first, and their concentrated firepower downed several Reaper capital ships.

The Reapers countered instantly. Their destroyers performed a jump of their own to the skies above Palaven, beginning orbital strikes on turian cities. The turians, forced to defend the planet, found themselves in a pitched battle far from the relay, from which emerged a seemingly endless line of Reaper ships. After massive casualties, Coronati ordered retreat.

The turians insist that Palaven is not lost--the battle has merely moved to the ground. Reaper troop transports have dumped hordes of husks to capture Palaven's inhabitants, but met with little success. Reaper capital ships are destroying city after city. But much of the turian fleet is still operable, and the citizenry is heavily armed. The turians refuse to be intimidated. 

 

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[Daemul]

Yeah never understood that choice. Why would shepard know what to do and not the commander of the fleet? Especially as it turns out you can save the Ascension and the council and still defeat sovereign without too much fuss.

There's a lot of choices in the trilogy that Shepard gets to make, that he really shouldn't be the one making. There are so many decisions I would gladly have passed on to people more higher up if the game had allowed me to.

[AlanC9]

If Hackett had any common sense(which he doesn't) he would've had the fleet fire on Sovereign from behind limiting the losses to a minimum

Trying to reconcile Bio's space cutscenes with the lore is not productive. They're always wrong to a greater or lesser degree.

(I'm just posting this for the benefit of the lurkers and newcomers. I know you guys actually know better.)

[AlanC9]

For myself, I'd say Bioware never should have made such a terrible, half-baked ending to begin with.

That is not an answer, of course. If vote DC wants to be the arbiter of what is or isn't a realistic course of action, he needs to specify what would be realistic in the situation we've got, rather than in some hypothetical alternate ending that he would have liked better.