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Finished ME 3 ( better late than never) Why do I feel like I was kicked in the quads?


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#1101
Bob from Accounting

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I got the number scaling from here: http://social.biowar...ndex/12076415/1

 

First of all, the power of the ship core is not proportional to the mass. The Codex explicitly says so. So that assumption being violated alone collapses things.

 

Secondly, reading through, it seems to me this guy is just making up numbers same as you. A frigate is 50 meters long. Says who? Says where?

 

Thirdly, this entire post is based on on kinetic energy and solely kinetic energy, where the entire point of the Thanix is doing great damage through heat in addition to kinetic energy. It's a different kind of weapon. That's not even considered in the post.

 

No. This holds no water.



#1102
AlanC9

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Do you know what hyperbole is?


Sure. I've read enough of iakus' posts. I don't think it's a very useful strategy when the actual argument isn't obvious.

So, what's your actual argument? That Bio should have made a conventional victory possible? That they actually did so only to retcon it it ME3? Or just that the Thanix codex entry is bad?

#1103
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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First of all, the power of the ship core is not proportional to the mass. The Codex explicitly says so. So that assumption being violated alone collapses things.

 

Secondly, reading through, it seems to me this guy is just making up numbers same as you. A frigate is 50 meters long. Says who? Says where?

From around the size of the SR1 I'd guess. 



#1104
Bob from Accounting

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If you want to whine 'space magic' and 'bad writing' try making an actual argument from scratch. This does not cut it.



#1105
AlanC9

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Their armor can't withstand a shot fired from the Normandy in ME.


That wasn't a Reaper, of course.

#1106
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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If you want to whine 'space magic' and 'bad writing' try making an actual argument from scratch. This does not cut it.

 

That's like trying to manufacture a car and needing to rediscover the combustion engine. Wasteful. 



#1107
Bob from Accounting

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Not if the previous 'engine' clearly does not work.



#1108
AlanC9

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Ah, I see. There's no argument there in the first place. That's why I couldn't follow it.

#1109
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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Not if the previous 'engine' clearly does not work.

Well if the person claiming it doesn't work just says "It doesn't work," then maybe he's the one who should be formulating his own actual argument. 



#1110
von uber

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I know not everyone has a technical mind such as myself

 

What constitutes a technical mind then, David Bob?



#1111
Bob from Accounting

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Well if the person claiming it doesn't work just says "It doesn't work," then maybe he's the one who should be formulating his own actual argument. 

 

Do you see the post at the top of the page?



#1112
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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Do you see the post at the top of the page?

It doesn't matter if it's based off of kinetic energy. The fact of the matter is that the Thanix upgrade made a frigate's main gun capable of knocking out a kilometer long ship in two shots. Another fact is that it can be scaled up. Thus, the firepower of the galaxy's fleets should increase exponentially. 

I still say conventional victory is possible. And what would be more heroic than Shepard watching as the galactic fleets she gathered through solving age old conflicts come together to defeat the reapers?


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#1113
Iakus

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It doesn't matter if it's based off of kinetic energy. The fact of the matter is that the Thanix upgrade made a frigate's main gun capable of knocking out a kilometer long ship in two shots. Another fact is that it can be scaled up. Thus, the firepower of the galaxy's fleets should increase exponentially. 

I still say conventional victory is possible. And what would be more heroic than Shepard watching as the galactic fleets she gathered through solving age old conflicts come together to defeat the reapers?

 

Even better, a thanix canon's power comes at least in part from the fact that it doesn't rely entirely on kinetic energy, but thermal energy as well.  Kinetic barriers are useless against that.

 

No matter how powerful the Reaper's shields are, something should get through.

 

edit: From the ME2 codex:

 

Contrary to popular belief, Sovereign's main gun was not a directed-energy weapon. Rather, its massive element zero core powered an electromagnetic field suspending a liquid iron-uranium-tungsten alloy that shaped into armor-piercing projectiles when fired. The jet of molten metal, accelerated to a fraction of the speed of light, destroys targets by impact force and irresistible heat.

Only 11 months after the battle, the turians produced the Thanix, their own miniaturized version of Sovereign's gun. The Thanix can fire reliably every five seconds, rivaling a cruiser's firepower but mountable on a fighter or frigate.



#1114
von uber

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I still say conventional victory is possible. And what would be more heroic than Shepard watching as the galactic fleets she gathered through solving age old conflicts come together to defeat the reapers?

 

I'm in two minds about this. One thing is that they made reapers impossibly powerful whilst at the same time making them destroyable by 4 dreadnaughts (pre-Thanix?). Second is that the Protheans failed by ruling with an iron fist, whereas you make a much more collaborative approach in ME, so you'd think it would have more a chance. But then again, it's said from the off you can't win conventionally by Hackett. Whether that is just to set the ground for :wizard:  is the question.



#1115
Iakus

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I'm in two minds about this. One thing is that they made reapers impossibly powerful whilst at the same time making them destroyable by 4 dreadnaughts (pre-Thanix?). Second is that the Protheans failed by ruling with an iron fist, whereas you make a much more collaborative approach in ME, so you'd think it would have more a chance. But then again, it's said from the off you can't win conventionally by Hackett. Whether that is just to set the ground for :wizard:  is the question.

 

Protheans lost because they blindly followed old methods and couldn't create new ideas or strategies of their own

 

What allowed this cycle to survive was throwing all their resources into an  ancient alien device they knew nothing about but blindly had faith that...

 

...Wait :huh:


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#1116
ImaginaryMatter

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You know, I really get annoyed at the 'Facepalm' .gifs people like to post in lieu of an argument, but the temptation is pretty strong at the moment upon reading this overwhelming amount of ignorance.

 

I know not everyone has a technical mind such as myself, but surely these concepts are not that difficult.

 

Well I suppose we can all just start act condescending and using words like 'ridiculous' and 'silly' instead of acting like adults.

 

But then again I guess none of us have the technical mind for that sort of thing.


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#1117
themikefest

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Protheans lost because they blindly followed old methods and couldn't create new ideas or strategies of their own

 

What allowed this cycle to survive was throwing all their resources into an  ancient alien device they knew nothing about but blindly had faith that...

 

...Wait :huh:

You can also add the Prothean scientists for altering the signal. Had that not happen, the reapers would've wiped this cycle out pretty easily



#1118
AlanC9

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I still say conventional victory is possible. And what would be more heroic than Shepard watching as the galactic fleets she gathered through solving age old conflicts come together to defeat the reapers?

 

 

What does it mean to say that "conventional victory is possible?" In the actual MEU, it is not possible; Refuse and the Reapers win every time. It's true that in some fanfic version of the MEU CV might be possible, but a fanfic can do anything. What's the claim here?



#1119
sH0tgUn jUliA

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I'm in two minds about this. One thing is that they made reapers impossibly powerful whilst at the same time making them destroyable by 4 dreadnaughts (pre-Thanix?). Second is that the Protheans failed by ruling with an iron fist, whereas you make a much more collaborative approach in ME, so you'd think it would have more a chance. But then again, it's said from the off you can't win conventionally by Hackett. Whether that is just to set the ground for :wizard:  is the question.

 

I also find it odd that the Allied Fleets don't seem to have any anti-fighter defenses. Wow. Also The Asari ships never fire. My guess is that Bioware never made a firing animation. Those resources went to Miranda's ass shots. 
 
And if the reaper kinetic barriers are so strong, wouldn't they have to lower them to fire their weapons? Otherwise their main cannon blast would be weakened getting past it. One would think unless Bob from Accounting has a silly explanation as to why the Reaper Kinetic Barriers are so awesome. I know. It wouldn't be heroic for the Reapers to have to be limited by that. 

 

From ME Wikia:

 

Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.
 
Unlike the mass effect relays that they created, Reapers do not have quantum shields. Locking itself down at a quantum level would leave a Reaper unaware of its surroundings until the shielding deactivated. Instead, Reapers rely on kinetic barriers.
 
In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts.
 
The barriers of a Reaper destroyer are less formidable than those of a capital ship. It is possible for a single cruiser or many fighters to disable or demolish a destroyer if they can get within range before they are themselves destroyed.
 
The Reapers' energy sources are not infinite. For example, to land on a planet, a Reaper must substantially reduce its mass. This transfer of power to its mass effect generators leaves the Reaper's kinetic barriers at only partial strength.
 
Sovereign was destroyed while assuming direct control over Saren. The feedback from Saren's death seemed to entirely overload Sovereign's shields. Current Reapers do not seem to suffer from this design flaw.
 
Reaper capital ships can turn faster than Citadel dreadnoughts, but to do so, they must lower their mass to a level unacceptable in combat situations. Consequently, it is possible for a dreadnought to emerge from FTL travel behind a capital ship, then bring its guns to bear faster than the Reaper can return fire. This is a poor tactic, however, against Reapers flying in proper formation.
 
 


#1120
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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What does it mean to say that "conventional victory is possible?" In the actual MEU, it is not possible; Refuse and the Reapers win every time. It's true that in some fanfic version of the MEU CV might be possible, but a fanfic can do anything. What's the claim here?

That given proper logistical and tactical expertise, the combined forces of the galaxy should have been able to win conventionally without using the crucible. 

 

Also, if the newer versions of the Reapers didn't have the Sovereign design flaw, shouldn't at least Harbinger have it?



#1121
AlanC9

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That given proper logistical and tactical expertise, the combined forces of the galaxy should have been able to win conventionally without using the crucible. 
 

This is just silly. Every fact in the MEU is created by the writers. Both the facts we know because we see them onscreen, and the facts we don't know because we can't, for instance, open up a copy of the 2185 edition of Jane's Fighting Spacecraft. Since the writers control both sets of facts, even if you could somehow prove that the known facts mean that we should win, that just means that the unknown facts broke against winning.

I suppose that we could talk about whether Bio misled you into thinking that a conventional victory was possible, but that's it. I think you were always kidding yourself about this, but I'm not sure that's worth discussing.
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#1122
Mcfly616

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Ahh....the good ol' conventional victory argument.


I hold IT in higher regard than that.

#1123
sH0tgUn jUliA

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According to the wikia which is based on the Codex, it was theoretically possible given good intelligence, tactics, and all of that. My post I copied directly from it. But the writers said otherwise later. We were misled. And because of the "in theory" part, the writers enforced a derp.



#1124
MassivelyEffective0730

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According to the wikia which is based on the Codex, it was theoretically possible given good intelligence, tactics, and all of that. My post I copied directly from it. But the writers said otherwise later. We were misled. And because of the "in theory" part, the writers enforced a derp.

 

Yeah, it was pretty misleading how they went with that. The game itself has some pretty contradictory statements. I'm inclined to believe it's not possible. The Reapers aren't a conventional enemy. How the hell do you plan on beating them conventionally?


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#1125
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Yeah, it was pretty misleading how they went with that. The game itself has some pretty contradictory statements. I'm inclined to believe it's not possible. The Reapers aren't a conventional enemy. How the hell do you plan on beating them conventionally?

 

Extreme tactics. JIHAD! You find them bunched up in a city you send in suicide bombers with anti-matter bombs (they should have something like that in 2186). They'd be very effective planet side. You could probably take out several reapers with a powerful one. Or you could go small and take out one and lose about 25,000 people. If they're harvesting a species they're not going to glass the planet. They may glass the city in retaliation, but then you keep doing it.