1483 réponses à ce sujet

[Tython]

Nice try but that still doesn't back up your claim. There were many posts just asking for a refuse ending that leads to failure, and Bioware included it.

They included what fans asked for (which was an extension of the game over screen that was already there if you took too long to choose) but this time with the ability to choose it through dialogue. Meanwhile you say that including what fans asked for is "insulting" and a "middle finger to the fans"? That's nuts. And look at those claims you made, "Hudson and Walters didn't want to hear it"? Source? "Refute the Catalyst's claims"? Refute that the peace wont last you mean? How?

Show this. Your opinion that it's an "insult" and a "middle finger to the fans" and it actually being those things are very different. If you want to say things like that, show it, claiming that others thought that way doesn't help your point in any way whatsoever, that's just countered by saying others didn't. But an actual middle finger to the fans would be easy to show.
 

 

Nice try but no one else had said that to me. If you say I'm insulting people, source it.

 

 

Again, different from "you are probably in the minority of actually finding them any good". Bioware found the people who modded the gay relationship with Kaidan in ME1 to be a large enough sample for them to include (at their own cost) dialogue between MaleShep and Kaidan that can only be seen if you do that. They also included (at their own cost) dialogue and scene changes for Engineers, despite the fact only 2% of players were Engineers.

Does that mean the people who didn't do that, or weren't Engineers, were in the minority? No.

Source your claim.

 

Well that's your opinion. I think what I said backs up my claim quite nicely. I also think there were way more people who wanted a happier ending than a refuse ending.

 But do I need a source for everything I say on these forums? Where are your sources?

 

I told you how to refute what the Catalyst was saying. Geth/Quarian peace. Did you read my post? Who said it won't last? Where's the catalysts proof and source? Where's yours? See how that works? If you want to discuss things like adults, fine. If you continue to post nonsense, don't be surprised when you get called on it or flat out ignored. I wonder if your whole goal on these forums is to antagonize people. Guess we'll see with your next "response".

[von uber]

Source it? That seems like a pretty obvious solution.

 

It's not worth it. I could put a 100 sources up and you would find someway of finding fault and not chnaging your opinion, so.. I think I'll go play DA:0 instead.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It's not worth it. I could put a 100 sources up and you would find someway of finding fault and not chnaging your opinion, so.. I think I'll go play DA:0 instead.

 

 

How far are you along in that story? And did you let Sophia go free? I did.

[KaiserShep]

Perhaps, but everyone believed the Catalyst was an object. Only at the end is the Catalyst revealed to be an actual AI and new character. And it sure is unexpected; nothing about the Reapers attitudes or actions suggests anything about the Catalyst (in fact they rather contradict it in retrospect), except for that one theory from Vendetta which was vague enough to describe almost anything and a 15 dollar DLC.

 

My main point being I don't think rigid definition of what a DeM is or isn't (is it DeM's evil step-brother? Is it some hybrid of them?), isn't going to help here -- if there even is one; hell, even the DeMs of ancient Greece don't seem to hold up to some definitions. What we do know is that it is an out of left field ass pull, introduced at the end involving a new character and... twiiiiists. The Catalyst is however constantly referred to as a DeM by people with paychecks or a large traffic content for their articles about ME3.

 

In the end, the Catalyst really does serve as a Deus Ex Machina. Shepard's journey seemingly ends right in front of a console and passes out, only to be lifted up to the decision chamber to be negotiated with on how to end the cycles. Basically, the conclusion requires the intervention of this unexpected power. Without it, f*ck all if Shepard had any way of knowing what to do next. The catalyst encounter is very much like the Deus Ex Machina Neo encounters at the end of The Matrix Revolutions. The sentinels are about to wipe out Zion, and this unexpected power comes out of nowhere to permit Neo one last trip into the Matrix to destroy the Smith virus, under the condition that they'll simply part ways and leave the human enclave alone.

 

How far are you along in that story? And did you let Sophia go free? I did.

 

The armor alone was worth killing her for.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It's just that the fight is a real #$!!!! without her.

[SporkFu]

I would imagine that the abruptness of the original endings alone would have angered quite a lot of people. I suspect that even if the ending was fixed, and Shepard simply destroyed the reapers without destroying the geth and saved the galaxy, but we only saw the reapers fall over and die and suddenly credits, people would still be angry that it just ends with no outlook on the galaxy we're leaving behind.

DA:O spoiled me for that. I would have raged if I didn't see that little slide about Morrigan and her pregnant belly.

[KaiserShep]

DA:O's ending would have been aggravating if we simply saw the archdemon die and the darkspawn retreat then suddenly credits.

[themikefest]

How far are you along in that story? And did you let Sophia go free? I did.

I've never done that. I like getting the armor from her and giving it to Alistair

[ImaginaryMatter]

I've never done that. I like getting the armor from her and giving it to Alistair

 

I always preferred suiting him up in the 100% spell resist gear.

[von uber]

How far are you along in that story? And did you let Sophia go free? I did.

 

Nah, I had Leilana pouting behind me. So she died.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Nah, I had Leilana pouting behind me. So she died.

 

Don't worry there's plenty of other good armor sets in the game including:

 

Wade's Superior Heavy Dragonscale set w/ Evon the Great's Mail

 

Which is probably the best offensive warrior set. It has almost zero fatigue when the set is equipped, excellent stamina regeneration, and good armor values that will only be rivaled by the bulkiest of massive armor. If you love to use abilities this set it the way to go. Plus the set doesn't include a helmet so the Helm of Honnleath (best headpiece in the game) can be used.

[The Bad One]

Perhaps, but everyone believed the Catalyst was an object.

 

And that's where it ends.

50% of a DEM is not a DEM.
 

Well that's your opinion. I think what I said backs up my claim quite nicely. I also think there were way more people who wanted a happier ending than a refuse ending.

 But do I need a source for everything I say on these forums? Where are your sources?

 

I told you how to refute what the Catalyst was saying. Geth/Quarian peace. Did you read my post? Who said it won't last? Where's the catalysts proof and source? Where's yours? See how that works? If you want to discuss things like adults, fine. If you continue to post nonsense, don't be surprised when you get called on it or flat out ignored. I wonder if your whole goal on these forums is to antagonize people. Guess we'll see with your next "response".

 

That's my opinion that you haven't sourced your claims? Erm, no, that's a fact.

You're asking me for my sources, but what claims did I make? Find a claim of mine and I'll source it.

And no that's not how it works. You don't provide a source for a negative, burden of proof. The Catalyst has eons of experience, you can dismiss it if you want, and as such he could dismiss yours. They'd both cancel each other out. That'd leave you in a situation where you have someone saying the Geth/Quarian peace disproves the peace wont last (it doesn't), and someone saying it doesn't, but who also happens to be correct in everything else they say. In other words, the Geth/Quarian situation proves nothing.

 

If you want to discuss things like adults, source your claims. If you don't want someone to challenge you to present a source for you claim, don't make that claim. It's absolutely ridiculous that you think someone challenging you to source your claims is posting "nonsense".

[von uber]

 

Don't worry there's plenty of other good armor sets in the game including:

 

Wade's Superior Heavy Dragonscale set w/ Evon the Great's Mail

 

Which is probably the best offensive warrior set. It has almost zero fatigue when the set is equipped, excellent stamina regeneration, and good armor values that will only be rivaled by the bulkiest of massive armor. If you love to use abilities this set it the way to go. Plus the set doesn't include a helmet so the Helm of Honnleath (best headpiece in the game) can be used.

 

yeah i've gone for the Drake Skin at the mo, am concentrating on passive abilites with daggers to get the dps up.

[ImaginaryMatter]

And that's where it ends.

50% of a DEM is not a DEM.

 

You missed my point. The reference to the Catalyst in the game was the Citadel and just the Citadel, it's nature is completely different than that of a sentient AI who controls the Reapers as tools. Yes, superficially they are the same thing, but I'm asking you to consider looking past that. One is an object, one is a character. Thing is DEM is a trope, it's not an absolute, it only has value as a short hand used to describe similar events that happen in different stories; and there is certainly no set definition, this 50% thing rings hallow to me as your definition seems different than a great deal of people.

 

The point to identifying DeMs is that they are a contrivance introduced at the end of a story with no build up that resolves the story. Yes, we are told that this thing called the Catalyst is needed. But at the end we find at the actually Catalyst is not this thing the story has built up to, it is a completely different event who's existence is not only arbitrary but also seemingly contradictory to the story that has come before (i.e. the Reapers actions in ME1, ME2, and ME3).

 

If you really object to the use of DeM so much I guess we can start using 'asspull'.

[The Bad One]

You missed my point. The reference to the Catalyst in the game was the Citadel and just the Citadel, it's nature is completely different than that of a sentient AI who controls the Reapers as tools. Yes, superficially they are the same thing, but I'm asking you to consider looking past that. One is an object, one is a character. Thing is DEM is a trope, it's not an absolute, it only has value as a short hand used to describe similar events that happen in different stories; and there is certainly no set definition, this 50% thing rings hallow to me as your definition seems different than a great deal of people.

 

The point to identifying DeMs is that they are a contrivance introduced at the end of a story with no build up that resolves the story. Yes, we are told that this thing called the Catalyst is needed. But at the end we find at the actually Catalyst is not this thing the story has built up to, it is a completely different event who's existence is not only arbitrary but also seemingly contradictory to the story that has come before (i.e. the Reapers actions in ME1, ME2, and ME3).

 

If you really object to the use of DeM so much I guess we can start using 'asspull'.

 

Incorrect, the Catalyst was always the Catalyst, believing it to be something different doesn't make it a DEM.

A DEM comes out of nowhere with no prior warning, like Vigil, and solves an unsolvable situation, like when Vigil gave you the override controls. That's a DEM.

The Catalyst is mentioned early and is the driving force behind 5 priority missions. It also does nothing to solve the situation, it just info dumps what the Crucible does. That means it failed on both aspects of a DEM. Even if you argue one, arguing that you 'didn't know what the Catalyst was' but that you knew the Catalyst was needed completely nullifies it as being a DEM.

 

50% of a DEM is not a DEM. To be a DEM it'd have to be unexpected (it wasnt) and solve the situation (it doesn't).

[ImaginaryMatter]

yeah i've gone for the Drake Skin at the mo, am concentrating on passive abilites with daggers to get the dps up.

 

That works too, even more stamina (less fatigue) bonuses so the drakeskin works better offensively. The main advantage I find to the drakescale is it's defensive qualities which I often find come up because I don't manage aggro real well.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Incorrect, the Catalyst was always the Catalyst, believing it to be something different doesn't make it a DEM.

A DEM comes out of nowhere with no prior warning, like Vigil, and solves an unsolvable situation, like when Vigil gave you the override controls. That's a DEM.

The Catalyst is mentioned early and is the driving force behind 5 priority missions. It also does nothing to solve the situation, it just info dumps what the Crucible does. That means it failed on both aspects of a DEM. Even if you argue one, arguing that you 'didn't know what the Catalyst was' but that you knew the Catalyst was needed completely nullifies it as being a DEM.

 

50% of a DEM is not a DEM. To be a DEM it'd have to be unexpected (it wasnt) and solve the situation (it doesn't).

 

Where are you getting this definition from?

 

Edit: Ahh, hell, this is becoming a pointless semantics argument... asspull it is!

[von uber]

That works too, even more stamina (less fatigue) bonuses so the drakeskin works better offensively. The main advantage I find to the drakescale is it's defensive qualities which I often find come up because I don't manage aggro real well.

 

Ah well I am pumping up DEX and CUN like crazy, so we'll see how it works

 

Anyway, this is  abit OT. Back to the pointless, never-ending argument

[KaiserShep]

And no that's not how it works. You don't provide a source for a negative, burden of proof. The Catalyst has eons of experience, you can dismiss it if you want, and as such he could dismiss yours. They'd both cancel each other out. That'd leave you in a situation where you have someone saying the Geth/Quarian peace disproves the peace wont last (it doesn't), and someone saying it doesn't, but who also happens to be correct in everything else they say. In other words, the Geth/Quarian situation proves nothing.

 

I'd disagree about the Geth/Quarian situation, but unfortunately, it's just a trap, because we never get a chance to see organics and synthetics get along on their own for a prolonged period of time anyway, and every other instance, any chances of conflict being settled without extinction are reduced to zero when the synthetics are hijacked by the reapers, like the Zha'til were.

[The Bad One]

Where are you getting this definition from?

 

Edit: Ahh, hell, this is becoming a pointless semantics argument... asspull it is!

TvTropes and Wikipedia.

Not really semantics, it either is or it isn't. And it isn't.

[AlanC9]

Asspull is actually pretty good. It gets most of the concept across, without too much extraneous baggage.

[The Bad One]

I'd disagree about the Geth/Quarian situation, but unfortunately, it's just a trap, because we never get a chance to see organics and synthetics get along on their own for a prolonged period of time anyway, and every other instance, any chances of conflict being settled without extinction are reduced to zero when the synthetics are hijacked by the reapers, like the Zha'til were.

Point is the Catalyst's claim is the peace wont last, and the Geth/Quarian situation doesn't disprove that.

[KaiserShep]

The conflict will probably come back a couple thousand years from that point, and then those synthetics might end up just becoming aluminum siding in space, or living like space hermits beyond a nebula. I can't say I'd be too worried.

 

Or the LOKI mechs might just rise up and ruin organic life economically.

[AlanC9]

I'd disagree about the Geth/Quarian situation, but unfortunately, it's just a trap, because we never get a chance to see organics and synthetics get along on their own for a prolonged period of time anyway, and every other instance, any chances of conflict being settled without extinction are reduced to zero when the synthetics are hijacked by the reapers, like the Zha'til were.

 

 

As a matter of RP, we'd be a lot better off if Shepard was able to bring this up, only to have his position summarily dismissed. I don't know if this would actually have made people any happier with the ending, though. I imagine people would just shout a lot more about railroading or some such.

[Tython]

As a matter of RP, we'd be a lot better off if Shepard was able to bring this up, only to have his position summarily dismissed. I don't know if this would actually have made people any happier with the ending, though. I imagine people would just shout a lot more about railroading or some such.

 

I agree. I would've liked for the Catalyst to have an answer to this question because it seems like an obvious point for the Shepard to bring up. Something like, "I've seen such a peace before, it never lasts for very long" and then examples of such from different cycles would've sufficed for me. The fact that it was never brought up makes me think the writers never considered it which is worrisome.