1483 réponses à ce sujet

[Tython]

And that's where it ends.

50% of a DEM is not a DEM.
 

 

That's my opinion that you haven't sourced your claims? Erm, no, that's a fact.

You're asking me for my sources, but what claims did I make? Find a claim of mine and I'll source it.

And no that's not how it works. You don't provide a source for a negative, burden of proof. The Catalyst has eons of experience, you can dismiss it if you want, and as such he could dismiss yours. They'd both cancel each other out. That'd leave you in a situation where you have someone saying the Geth/Quarian peace disproves the peace wont last (it doesn't), and someone saying it doesn't, but who also happens to be correct in everything else they say. In other words, the Geth/Quarian situation proves nothing.

 

If you want to discuss things like adults, source your claims. If you don't want someone to challenge you to present a source for you claim, don't make that claim. It's absolutely ridiculous that you think someone challenging you to source your claims is posting "nonsense".

 

Maybe if you had a point, I'd consider continuing this discussion but it's not really worth my time anymore since you think you have all the answers.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Point is the Catalyst's claim is the peace wont last, and the Geth/Quarian situation doesn't disprove that.

 

Yes. But the Geth/Quarian conflict is our window of the entire conflict and it's outcome is very relevant. The notion that it, along with the other important AI relationship, can end up with Organic/Synthetic cooperation makes the Catalyst claims of inevitability ring hallow, it doesn't have any bite; the fact that we can't even bring it up (even if to only have it rebutted) makes it even disconnected, like no one in the ending has been paying attention to the story.

 

I agree. I would've liked for the Catalyst to have an answer to this question because it seems like an obvious point for the Shepard to bring up. Something like, "I've seen such a peace before, it never lasts for very long" and then examples of such from different cycles would've sufficed for me. The fact that it was never brought up makes me think the writers never considered it which is worrisome.

 

Which is why the ending feels like a rushed mess. There's so many major implications that it seems like the writers never considered them and rushed out the end after a single draft. Some were fixed by the EC (teleporting squadmates and the galactic darkage) the other still remain even after all the DLC are accounted for (like how dumb are Sovereign and the Catalyst?).

[Iakus]

As a matter of RP, we'd be a lot better off if Shepard was able to bring this up, only to have his position summarily dismissed. I don't know if this would actually have made people any happier with the ending, though. I imagine people would just shout a lot more about railroading or some such.

 

Yeah, set up an entire arc that demonstrates that organics and synthetics can get along, only to have the writers Catalyst dismiss it as irrelevant.

 

That would have been much better than the railroading we got 

[Iakus]

I'd disagree about the Geth/Quarian situation, but unfortunately, it's just a trap, because we never get a chance to see organics and synthetics get along on their own for a prolonged period of time anyway, and every other instance, any chances of conflict being settled without extinction are reduced to zero when the synthetics are hijacked by the reapers, like the Zha'til were.

 

The Reapers turn the organic-synthetic hybrid into a self-fulfilling prophecy.  They're the cop who breaks your taillight then tickets you for having a broken taillight.

 

Their argument is invalid

[Mcfly616]

"the peace won't last"

[SporkFu]

One thing that bugs me about that conversation is that the catalyst can't know that for sure. It's guessing based on what has happened before, except Shepard has changed everything just by using the crucible.

[Mcfly616]

At what point does guessing become knowing? If it has happened countless times before....

[SporkFu]

Except that no one has used the crucible before.

[Mcfly616]

Except that no one has used the crucible before.

the Catalyst admits that the Crucible has changed things....

It literally acknowledges that fact.

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about: if it happens over and over, and one civilization after another falls victim of it, then you know 'this is what happens when organics create AI's'. It's not a guess. It's a fact of the MEU. So, by choosing Destroy all you're doing is taking the Reapers out of the equation. Like it or not, the Catalyst and Reapers were created for a reason. That reason being the existence of a very real problem.

That problem will grow and civilizations will fall one after the other, just as they did before the Catalyst was created.

[Sir DeLoria]

Point is the Catalyst's claim is the peace wont last, and the Geth/Quarian situation doesn't disprove that.

Which is why I create peace by destroying the Geth once and for all. Problem solved.

The following red wave is just the last nail in the coffin.

[ImaginaryMatter]

the Catalyst admits that the Crucible has changed things....

It literally acknowledges that fact.

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about: if it happens over and over, and one civilization after another falls victim of it, then you know 'this is what happens when organics create AI's'. It's not a guess. It's a fact of the MEU. So, by choosing Destroy all you're doing is taking the Reapers out of the equation. Like it or not, the Catalyst and Reapers were created for a reason. That reason being the existence of a very real problem.

That problem will grow and civilizations will fall one after the other, just as they did before the Catalyst was created.

 

Well a hypothetical problem. Synthetics have never actually wiped out all Organic life and as far as what we see in game Organics are just as potent in this regard as any Synthetic.

 

Which is why I think the end would have been better served by a general life will wipe itself out and Reapers will prevent that from happening. The series didn't do much in the way of establishing Synthetics as a significant enough other (quite the opposite actually) although it did show the races can be pretty mean to each other.

[Iakus]

"the peace won't last"

 

"It will rain"

 

Eventually.

[Mcfly616]

Well a hypothetical problem. Synthetics have never actually wiped out all Organic life and as far as what we see in game Organics are just as potent in this regard as any Synthetic.
 
Which is why I think the end would have been better served by a general life will wipe itself out and Reapers will prevent that from happening. The series didn't do much in the way of establishing Synthetics as a significant enough other (quite the opposite actually) although it did show the races can be pretty mean to each other.

would you suggest we just let it happen? let synthetics wipe life out til there's none left. That seems to be the only way you'd accept it.

And the Reapers harvest before the AI's overrun can even take shape. That's the entire point. It stops it before it happens. Hence why we don't see it in the 3 short years we experienced in the MEU.

[Kel Riever]

Are we still trying to do the job BioWare didn't do, which is make a coherent ending that offered choices that matter?

 

Next Mass Effect game comes as a blank disk simply displaying the logo.  You get to speculate on everything.

 

That's why it feels like a veritable kick in the groin.  What it really was, was an insult to intelligence.

 

There's no problem with liking Mass Effect 3, just like a person can enjoy anything if it suits their tastes, even if it is bad.  But liking the game and the game being good are not the same thing.

[Steelcan]

I can't hear the Catalyst over this

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Yi6slB2-0kM

[ImaginaryMatter]

would you suggest we just let it happen? let synthetics wipe life out til there's none left. That seems to be the only way you'd accept it.

And the Reapers harvest before the AI's overrun can even take shape. That's the entire point. It stops it before it happens. Hence why we don't see it in the 3 short years we experienced in the MEU.

 

I simply stated it was a hypothetical problem -- I have Shepard kill the Rachni queen because she is a hypothetical problem. However, the AI conflict as presented by the AI is one I'm generally inclined not to find problematic in ME3 as the game beats me over the head (to the point where it becomes annoying) with how nice Synthetics are. The Catalyst can spend five minutes telling me how this is a problem but it's not going to outdo the damage the Rannoch arc did. Additionally, Synthetics were never established to be a more potent threat than any Organics race.

 

This is more of a thematic issue. If the writers really wanted the end to sync up with the rest of the game they should have shown all the potential dangers AI possess and present how this was actually a real problem in the universe with different viewpoints on how to solve the solution; like show the otherness of AI, how much more quickly they advance, how large and irreconcilable the gap is between synthetic and organic. ME3 practically did the opposite, it went pretty far out of it's way to establish that Synthetics were mostly victims with entirely human and sympathetic traits -- Its even one of the key points of the Geth arch is that they continually spare the Quarians. So in this game with a bunch of robots who love us, we get an ending that deals with a problem never established well in the story. The ending should have dealt with an issue that had significant precedence in the story, ironically the ME3 ending would have worked much better if it took place after ME1 which did a much better job of establishing this.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I can't hear the Catalyst over this

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Yi6slB2-0kM

 

This one's mine.

 

Considering most of the Synthetic characters in the game have this kind of friendly disposition it makes the Catalyst's assertions ring hallow.

[DeinonSlayer]

I simply stated it was a hypothetical problem -- I have Shepard kill the Rachni queen because she is a hypothetical problem. However, the AI conflict as presented by the AI is one I'm generally inclined not to find problematic in ME3 as the game beats me over the head (to the point where it becomes annoying) with how nice Synthetics are. The Catalyst can spend five minutes telling me how this is a problem but it's not going to outdo the damage the Rannoch arc did. Additionally, Synthetics were never established to be a more potent threat than any Organics race.

This is more of a thematic issue. If the writers really wanted the end to sync up with the rest of the game they should have shown all the potential dangers AI possess and present how this was actually a real problem in the universe with different viewpoints on how to solve the solution; like show the otherness of AI, how much more quickly they advance, how large and irreconcilable the gap is between synthetic and organic. ME3 practically did the opposite, it went pretty far out of it's way to establish that Synthetics were mostly victims with entirely human and sympathetic traits -- Its even one of the key points of the Geth arch is that they continually spare the Quarians. So in this game with a bunch of robots who love us, we get an ending that deals with a problem never established well in the story. The ending should have dealt with an issue that had significant precedence in the story, ironically the ME3 ending would have worked much better if it took place after ME1 which did a much better job of establishing this.

I've said it before, and it remains relevant:

If they really wanted people to take the threat of an inevitable synthetic/organic conflict seriously, they should have emphasized the 99% death rate the Quarians suffered in the Morning War instead of effectively sweeping it under the rug so we'd be more prone to sympathize with the Geth. The way it's presented, people think the problem is resolved already, then we're not allowed to challenge the Catalyst's claim that it will 1) always happen, and 2) end in the extinction of organic life.

The only way they could make them look as saintly as they did was by pretending the last three hundred years never happened.

[Steelcan]

The only way the Rannoch arc really helps out the Catalyst is if the geth destroy the quarians

 

 

and even then that's only after Shepard and the Reapers have extensively interefered

[ImaginaryMatter]

The only way the Rannoch arc really helps out the Catalyst is if the geth destroy the quarians

 

 

and even then that's only after Shepard and the Reapers have extensively interefered

 

Even then the Geth have no problem working and helping the other Organic races to rebuild their futures.

 

Choosing the Geth gives you tons of bits like this:

 

Email to Sergeant Cavanagh to Sergeant Ichii:

 

"Next time, you want to warn me that the geth are our friends and that maybe we're not supposed to shoot the big robots? I almost pissed myself when these primes started dropping out of the sky and mopping up the Reapers. We fired a few rounds at them until we realized they weren't firing back. Then this one comes over, said they're "allied assistance" and asks for our status. I'm not complaining they saved my crew, but I'm never living down having to apologize to a geth for shooting one of its damn lights off."

[Kel Riever]

Geth vs. Quarians, while entertaining, still holds no water vs. a badly executed ending and faux logic.  Basically, if you can have peace between the Geth and the Quarians, as an option, it absolutely makes the argument that synthetics can't get along with organics patently stupid.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Another reason that if you have to pick, pick the Quarians:

There are 17 million Quarians. 17 million individual minds capable of thinking for themselves. 

There is one Geth. Just one. Kill the Geth and there and you are only effectively snuffing out one mind.

The Geth are still just computer programs. Each individual run time is not exactly Einstein. It takes around 1200 runtimes to create a Geth comparable to your average person. And this computer still can't out-calibrate Garrus. How many Geth really exist?

Besides, Shepard is an idiot to allow reaper code to re-uploaded to the Geth. Seriously, why did we have to let that happen? 

[DeinonSlayer]

Another reason that if you have to pick, pick the Quarians:

There are 17 million Quarians. 17 million individual minds capable of thinking for themselves. 

There is one Geth. Just one. Kill the Geth and there and you are only effectively snuffing out one mind.

The Geth are still just computer programs. Each individual run time is not exactly Einstein. It takes around 1200 runtimes to create a Geth comparable to your average person. And this computer still can't out-calibrate Garrus. How many Geth really exist?

Besides, Shepard is an idiot to allow reaper code to re-uploaded to the Geth. Seriously, why did we have to let that happen? 

 

I think I know where this thread will end up.

 

[TheTurtle]

I think I know where this thread will end up.

 

Can't we all just get along, just this once please

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Another reason that if you have to pick, pick the Quarians:

There are 17 million Quarians. 17 million individual minds capable of thinking for themselves. 

There is one Geth. Just one. Kill the Geth and there and you are only effectively snuffing out one mind.

The Geth are still just computer programs. Each individual run time is not exactly Einstein. It takes around 1200 runtimes to create a Geth comparable to your average person. And this computer still can't out-calibrate Garrus. How many Geth really exist?

Besides, Shepard is an idiot to allow reaper code to re-uploaded to the Geth. Seriously, why did we have to let that happen? 

 

 

We didn't have to allow that to happen. In the war room I told Legion it was a bad idea. I knew that during the Morning War the Quarians didn't wear suits, and as such I role played my Shepard not buying the BS that she was just seeing them in suits because it was familiar. If those were real data streams they shouldn't have been in suits. Tough luck, Legion. Too bad Bioware didn't spring for an actual Quarian model without a suit. So I interpreted it as Geth propaganda, and didn't think it would be a good idea to challenge Legion about it while trapped inside the matrix. Just do the job and watch the dog and pony show. Then Legion wants to upload the reaper code? Yeah, right. No dice, Legion. All the Geth have done is shoot at me. Suddenly they're going to stop? Who says they're not going to get hacked by the Reapers? I shot Legion three times. I'd told Tali I'd help her in ME2 and then again in ME3. I keep my promises. 

 

And there went the Geth. No one is going to miss them. The only one upset by it is EDI.