1483 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

Including murdering and expeimenting on humans. Neat. Wanting to advance humanity is a political goal; just because one of the front pieces happens to have her arse shoved in the camera, had big knockers and is supposed to be attractive doesn't change the fact that they are a terroist organisation according to the rest of the galaxy, including humanity.
If you support that, then fine, that's your choice - doesn't change what they are.

Reminds me of Enrica from Splinter Cell: Double Agent. She ducked involuntary manslaughter by going under with JBA and building a nuke for them. "Dat ass" was supposed to be a "not-really-evil" figure (and a romantic interest to Sam Fisher, who had recently lost a daughter her same age, which is really creepy). I wasn't exactly sympathetic. I doubt the writers would have treated a male who did exactly what she did with as much sympathy. Broadcast the disarm code for the bomb she built and framed her for it, boss executed her, maintained trust with both NSA and JBA and kept the cruise ship (and the city it was docked next to) from being nuked.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Including murdering and expeimenting on humans. Neat. Wanting to advance humanity is a political goal; just because one of the front pieces happens to have her arse shoved in the camera, had big knockers and is supposed to be attractive doesn't change the fact that they are a terroist organisation according to the rest of the galaxy, including humanity.

If you support that, then fine, that's your choice - doesn't change what they are.

 

Yes, it does change what they are, until you can make an argument to the contrary. As far as the rest of the galaxy is concerned, I think they're wrong. Seeing as the rest of the galaxy in this case comes from the minds of writers who I don't feel are particularly knowledgeable in these cases, I think I'm just going to disagree with them. If 'murdering and experimenting on humans' serves a purpose greater than the consequence of leaving them alive, then I'm fine with it. 

 

Galactic powers written by the collective governments of the galaxy. The council are ambassadors from the Republics, Union, Hierarchy, and Alliance.

How so? Cerberus is a rascist organization that is well organized and commits militant acts.

Working for Cerberus, especially as the goddamn second in command, is treason. Shepard gets off because she's a Spectre. If an American worked for al-Qaeda, I'd say he commited treason. Unless you can prove she deniunced her Alliance citizenship, she's a traitor.

From the games at least, it just seems like he wanted a dynasty and expected perfection.

 

The Galactic powers were written by a small team of writers who I could forgive for being ignorant to the actual definition of a term, or its subjective interpretation and meaning. And yes, I do know more about terrorism than the writers do. I've spent my entire adult life thus far in an occupation specifically dedicated to it. 

 

They aren't a racist organization for starters. I've never seen any bouts of outright racism from any kind of collected group of personnel. Are there racists in Cerberus? Undoubtedly. They also exist in the alliance, the Turian Hierarchy, the Salarian Union, and the Asari Collective. Are you going to denounce them for being racist because members of them are too? They don't have a racist ideology. They don't have an ideal of hating aliens at all. They're a pro-human group, but pro-human does not =/= anti-alien. I think we've had this discussion before.

 

How's it treason? You're not defining how it's treason. Because she's human, she must automatically support the alliance? Because I was born in the United States, I must automatically support it? I never chose to be born in America. I did make a choice to be an American. I chose that the day I Enlisted in the United States Army. What is the true value of citizenship? Why must one who doesn't support it without choice be forced to call it treason? That's a double standard on your part about Shepard by the way. How would she denounce her alliance citizenship? As far as I know, if you're human, you're technically under the alliance and the Council. 

[KaiserShep]

I can understand the idea of a pro- human organization. For the most part, the Alliance is too, unless they're like star fleet and have alien officers/recruits. I doubt the salarians would permit humans in the STG.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

The Galactic powers were written by a small team of writers who I could forgive for being ignorant to the actual definition of a term, or its subjective interpretation and meaning. And yes, I do know more about terrorism than the writers do. I've spent my entire adult life thus far in an occupation specifically dedicated to it.

They aren't a racist organization for starters. I've never seen any bouts of outright racism from any kind of collected group of personnel. Are there racists in Cerberus? Undoubtedly. They also exist in the alliance, the Turian Hierarchy, the Salarian Union, and the Asari Collective. Are you going to denounce them for being racist because members of them are too? They don't have a racist ideology. They don't have an ideal of hating aliens at all. They're a pro-human group, but pro-human does not =/= anti-alien. I think we've had this discussion before.

How's it treason? You're not defining how it's treason. Because she's human, she must automatically support the alliance? Because I was born in the United States, I must automatically support it? I never chose to be born in America. I did make a choice to be an American. I chose that the day I Enlisted in the United States Army. What is the true value of citizenship? Why must one who doesn't support it without choice be forced to call it treason? That's a double standard on your part about Shepard by the way. How would she denounce her alliance citizenship? As far as I know, if you're human, you're technically under the alliance and the Council.

I don't want to pull a psuedo-godwin here, but Cerberus is for human dominance. Is being for white dominance rascist?

It doesn't matter if you didnt chose to be an American. You were legally onebthe moment you were born on American soil. Every nation has this system, unless one or two parents is a citizen of another nation. Then it depends. Miranda was 'born' on Earth. Under Alliance jurisdiction. She's a citizen. Legally, she commited treason.

[Barquiel]

I can understand the idea of a pro- human organization. For the most part, the Alliance is too, unless they're like star fleet and have alien officers/recruits. I doubt the salarians would permit humans in the STG.

 

I understand this too...but cerberus isn't like the STG. The Salarian STG or asari commandos answer to their respective governments and the council. Cerberus answers to a single unelected individual with creepy eyes who is accountable to no one and thinks that anti-alien leanings are proof of character. As for Miranda, I think the council and the Alliance would have no problem pardoning her after the war (as we see in her epilogue slide).

[SporkFu]

I don't want to pull a psuedo-godwin here, but Cerberus is for human dominance. Is being for white dominance rascist?

It doesn't matter if you didnt chose to be an American. You were legally onebthe moment you were born on American soil. Every nation has this system, unless one or two parents is a citizen of another nation. Then it depends. Miranda was 'born' on Earth. Under Alliance jurisdiction. She's a citizen. Legally, she commited treason.

Was Miranda born on earth? Not arguing, just curious. I did not know that. I mean, I know she was grown in a lab, but I didn't know that lab was on earth.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I don't want to pull a psuedo-godwin here, but Cerberus is for human dominance. Is being for white dominance rascist?

It doesn't matter if you didnt chose to be an American. You were legally one the moment you were born on American soil. Every nation has this system, unless one or two parents is a citizen of another nation. Then it depends. Miranda was 'born' on Earth. Under Alliance jurisdiction. She's a citizen. Legally, she commited treason.

 

Is Cerberus really for human dominance? I know several indoctrinated statements by TIM said that he wanted to secure humanity a safe position in the galaxy despite whatever happens in the cosmos. Did he really want humanity to be in the lead? And if so, is there a problem there? 

 

Ok. Why is Miranda obligated to follow a jurisdiction she might not agree with or believe in? Every nation might have this system. And I'm saying that it's a flaw of the system. Are you going to allow a legal bureaucracy to bring forward your opinions of what is right and wrong?

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Is Cerberus really for human dominance? I know several indoctrinated statements by TIM said that he wanted to secure humanity a safe position in the galaxy despite whatever happens in the cosmos. Did he really want humanity to be in the lead? And if so, is there a problem there? 

 

Ok. Why is Miranda obligated to follow a jurisdiction she might not agree with or believe in? Every nation might have this system. And I'm saying that it's a flaw of the system. Are you going to allow a legal bureaucracy to bring forward your opinions of what is right and wrong?

Cerberus is for human dominance. Hell, Shepard is autodialogued into saying "Human dominance.... or Cerberus dominance?" As if the previous is any better. Anyway, Timmy and his dog believes in human dominance. And once again, I refer to my psuedo-godwinning. 

Ninety-nine percent of the time, governmental bureaucracy has no business whatsoever stepping into anyone's life or deciding what is right or wrong. The 1% of the time when it is okay is when dealing with paramilitary organizations performing live experimentation and attacking and killing innocent people. 

[KaiserShep]

I understand this too...but cerberus isn't like the STG. The Salarian STG or asari commandos answer to their respective governments and the council. Cerberus answers to a single unelected individual with creepy eyes who is accountable to no one and thinks that anti-alien leanings are proof of character. As for Miranda, I think the council and the Alliance would have no problem pardoning her after the war (as we see in her epilogue slide).

I don't approve of their methods and their lack of any oversight beyond Creepster McGlowpeepers, but a human equivalent of the STG is something I'd approve of.

[Sir DeLoria]

I'm only at odds with Cerberus for what they did in Ascension, otherwise I don't mind them and genuinely like TIM. Never really cared for Miranda that much, but I usually have her survive.

[Tython]

I liked how DA:O had actions that triggered squadmates to leave or even attack and force you to kill them. I guess the Normandy is a hive of yes-men. At least Legion and Mordin stand up for themselves.

Wrex goes after you in ME1 and in ME3 if you don't cure the genophage and trick the Krogan. But I agree, I'd like to have more conflict and make you work to keep your comrades a little more.

[KaiserShep]

Wrex goes after you in ME1 and in ME3 if you don't cure the genophage and trick the Krogan. But I agree, I'd like to have more conflict and make you work to keep your comrades a little more.

I agree. Having more reactivity on the part of the companions adds more weight to the choices you make. It's what got me addicted to Dragon Age.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Cerberus is for human dominance. Hell, Shepard is autodialogued into saying "Human dominance.... or Cerberus dominance?" As if the previous is any better. Anyway, Timmy and his dog believes in human dominance. And once again, I refer to my psuedo-godwinning. 

Ninety-nine percent of the time, governmental bureaucracy has no business whatsoever stepping into anyone's life or deciding what is right or wrong. The 1% of the time when it is okay is when dealing with paramilitary organizations performing live experimentation and attacking and killing innocent people. 

 

I think it's more of a question on Shepard's part there. I don't believe for one second that Cerberus is a human supremacist group. There's contradictory material that would make me question what is displayed. Hell, TIM is the one telling Saren to get his people (the Turians) ready for the big scary something that was going to be coming soon. That, and he sleeps with Asari Matriarchs. I think he's more keen to operate outside their bureaucracy, norms, and philosophy to accomplish his goals.

 

I have no problem with the live experimentation and attacking and killing of innocent people if it serves a useful purpose. Even when it doesn't, I have no moral qualm about it, just an economic one. And as far as I see, it had a utility in its purpose, and it had results. Methods don't matter when you get results.

[Kel Riever]

Yes, as well as making her look like a sexbot (can't kill EDI she has pnuematic Zeppelins!).

 

Ancient and once upon a time outrage over sexy robots is ancient and once upon a time outrage:

 

 

It may sound like I'm kidding when I say start making man hunk robots but I'm not.  There's really no problem with sexy robots in silly sci-fi, but at least be fair.

 

The issue is less sexbot and more, "Why does EDI want to wander around?"  Which is actually answered as well as anyone should expect.  The execution of that, however, is all sorts of flawed (like Julia pointing out that Shepard calls Joker for an evac, potentially when EDI is standing right next to him/her! )

[Mcfly616]

Yeah, in the next game I definitely don't need a bunch of squadmates following me into hell even though they don't agree with a damn word my character says. I would like ramifications with my crew due to certain decisions I make.

[Tython]

Yeah, in the next game I definitely don't need a bunch of squadmates following me into hell even though they don't agree with a damn word my character says. I would like ramifications with my crew due to certain decisions I make.

And as was mentioned, Dragon Age: Origins did it and it worked out well apparently from all the feedback I've heard. I haven't gotten very far in the game but was thinking about playing through it before DA:I comes out. Maybe what kept Shepard's crew around was how the legend grew after taking out Sovereign and being resurrected at the beginning of ME2. Soldiers tend to follow people they deem are blessed by God or their deity. I remember someone saying Shepard was meant to defeat the Reapers and perhaps it stuck.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I feel like in the story Cerberus is let down by being anchored to... well Cerberus. Too often in the story they cross the line into reckless abandon, granted a lot of this is seen through the ME1 lens where that was how they were written to be portrayed, but they still continue to do those actions throughout ME2 and accelerate into ME3. ME2 seems to be the exception for the most part except they still seem to hold onto that distinction that every operation tends to end with either human civilian casualties or the death and destruction of Cerberus personnel and property... plus the inability to refrain from plastering their logo onto everything.

[KaiserShep]

It's sort of surprising that Cerberus didn't have a testing facility that made lemon grenades or have a copy of EDI serving as the AI that runs test subjects through a gauntlet of horribly deadly puzzles.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

It's sort of surprising that Cerberus didn't have a testing facility that made lemon grenades or have a copy of EDI serving as the AI that runs test subjects through a gauntlet of horribly deadly puzzles.

Let's see, Cerberus has a project that results with almost everyone killed by nuerotoxin. 

Sounds fitting. I'd put money that it actually did happen. 

[Tython]

Let's see, Cerberus has a project that results with almost everyone killed by nuerotoxin. 

Sounds fitting. I'd put money that it actually did happen. 

Yeah I thought The Illusive Man said that Cerberus would go to any lengths to achieve their goals so nothing seems farfetched for them. I just felt, like a lot of people, that making Cerberus the villain in ME3 really diminished the Reaper threat. I felt the game would see whole fleets striking against Reapers trying to find their weak point (this only happened once and was forgotten come later battles). I thought we'd fight allies turned indoctrinated enemies. We did fight Husks and other turned enemies but I thought we'd see a lot more of them on worlds instead of always Cerberus. I just never suspected Cerberus was such a large organization considering the losses during the First Contact War and during ME2 at the hands of the Collectors.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Yeah I thought The Illusive Man said that Cerberus would go to any lengths to achieve their goals so nothing seems farfetched for them. I just felt, like a lot of people, that making Cerberus the villain in ME3 really diminished the Reaper threat. I felt the game would see whole fleets striking against Reapers trying to find their weak point (this only happened once and was forgotten come later battles). I thought we'd fight allies turned indoctrinated enemies. We did fight Husks and other turned enemies but I thought we'd see a lot more of them on worlds instead of always Cerberus. I just never suspected Cerberus was such a large organization considering the losses during the First Contact War and during ME2 at the hands of the Collectors.

 

TIM apparently built a Star Forge.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Yeah I thought The Illusive Man said that Cerberus would go to any lengths to achieve their goals so nothing seems farfetched for them. I just felt, like a lot of people, that making Cerberus the villain in ME3 really diminished the Reaper threat. I felt the game would see whole fleets striking against Reapers trying to find their weak point (this only happened once and was forgotten come later battles). I thought we'd fight allies turned indoctrinated enemies. We did fight Husks and other turned enemies but I thought we'd see a lot more of them on worlds instead of always Cerberus. I just never suspected Cerberus was such a large organization considering the losses during the First Contact War and during ME2 at the hands of the Collectors.

 

They had to. Cerberus had a personality: The Illusive Man. The Reapers didn't. They were overpowered and could not be defeated without space magic. But how Cerberus grew to rival the Turian military in size is fascinating. We needed a different kind of mook to kill other than zombies. And they needed something to get in Shepard's way of getting the stuff needed to complete the Crucible. Hence Cerberus. So while you were sitting in your cell for six months, or if you were relieved of duty for six months (didn't do Arrival) and were playing golf, Cerberus used you as the face that saved human colonies in a highly successful recruitment drive (Speculation). They bought or stole old ships and refitted them. TIM's training method was to simply implant the recruits with something that "improved them," and made them obedient, and ugly. 

 

So that's why Cerberus got all those troops. It's a video game. We need mooks to kill and lots of them. We can't just be killing the same kind of mooks all the time. The Reapers are pretty much a faceless enemy. But Cerberus is not. TIM isn't the antagonist, but he is a villain, and has to go through his long winded explanation justifying his actions at the end. This is so stupid.

[Tython]

Harbinger was the face of the Reapers to me and Shepard did kill a couple conventionally to include Sovereign, one by big giant worm and another by targeting it's main gun with a fleet of ships. But I understand your point. TIM is an enemy that's more personal because Shepard worked for the guy in ME2. I just felt it was silly that Alliance military and the rest of the alien species would let Cerberus grow so far out of control. It really shows how brilliant and deranged TIM really was. But I did feel like I was killing the same kind of Cereberus mooks all the time...

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Yeah I thought The Illusive Man said that Cerberus would go to any lengths to achieve their goals so nothing seems farfetched for them. I just felt, like a lot of people, that making Cerberus the villain in ME3 really diminished the Reaper threat. I felt the game would see whole fleets striking against Reapers trying to find their weak point (this only happened once and was forgotten come later battles). I thought we'd fight allies turned indoctrinated enemies. We did fight Husks and other turned enemies but I thought we'd see a lot more of them on worlds instead of always Cerberus. I just never suspected Cerberus was such a large organization considering the losses during the First Contact War and during ME2 at the hands of the Collectors.

I was talking more about their incompetence.

Which, of course, makes me a little bit skeptical of how they somehow raised a standing army, in secret, along with constructing a fleet in six months, 

They even had a dreadnought stationed at Omega. Which, of course, was destroyed by a couple of seconds of fire from Aria's cruiser. Makes sense that they'd forget to install kinetic barriers.