1483 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Ya, I'm thinking that might be it....maybe they underestiimated how much some people would grow attached to the shep character. I don't mind (usually) when the protagonist dies in games, but this one seemed to affect me on a much deeper level. Probably because it was one played over the course of years real time (2009 to now). And will the series really be the same without shep? Kinda like bourne without jason bourne....not sure if it will be the same, or if people will just get to see characters they have grown to care about die in ME4. I wonder if in ME4 they forgo all of the endings and just do a prologue...Anderson running around in the first contact war? Don't know. ME3 just left me feeling really negative at the end because of how things ended for shep...in all of the endings..

That's what they said, actually: that they underestimated how much players would take ownership of the character. I find that somewhat hard to believe, but still it is their first game trilogy, and people get more attached to a character if they play them in three games over five years than if they only play them in one game over two months or so.

 

As for the ending, I maintain that you could see Shepard's death as part of the best ending coming from a long way back. What we couldn't expect was that it would be forced into the story in all of the endings (Control technically doesn't have it, but it feels the same to many, especially since the story itself claims that their fate equals death). What we also couldn't expect was how artificially that sacrifice would be implemented, that it would feel like "there is sacrifice because there must be sacrifice" rather than a natural progression of the story like Mordin's or Victus' sacrifice. For me, the emotional impact of Shepard's fate did not lie in their death as such, but in the way they were casually thrown away by the story for religious allegory and to make a point about sacrifice.  

[Ieldra]

So why is allegory 'domination,' and if it is, why is such 'domination' a bad thing?

 

Furthermore, that just doesn't seem to make any sense. It seems to place a demand that the author be clueless about their own work and only use allegories accidentally. Allegory is okay, but only if the writer didn't intend to put it in? That just sounds like a demand for double-think.

No, that's not what this is about. Of course the author can (and should?) be aware of possible allegorical interpretations of their story. What they shouldn't do is hint at the allegorical level in their story in order to force its recognition by the reader. They should just tell the story. Even worse, ME3's lead writers said there were elements in the ending which aren't meant to be taken literally. That is exactly the problem here: allegory replaces the plausible reality of the second world. To tell a story which can't be taken at face value and stay believable is problematic to say the least. The allegorical level should always be an added dimension.  

[Bob from Accounting]

So...the problem is stories being too heavy handed and/or 'forcing' the allegory at the expense of other elements of the story?

[voteDC]

In regards to story.

Mass Effect 1 worked best for me because pretty much everything felt connected to the main story. It felt like one cohesive universe to me.

Mass Effect 2 contains my favourite story moment of the franchise, Tali's loyalty mission. Yet as a whole the game falls flat. Everything feels disjointed and unrelated.

Mass Effect 3 brought the cohesion back but seemed to push story to behind the combat. Action seemed to become more important than why you were doing it.

[marcelo caldas]

OP, in ME3 case would be better never than later.

[crimzontearz]

Art is pain, doom gloom, ambiguity and speculation....and if Mac allowed us to see a rescued Shepard even LESS people would have chosen his artistic pet endings.

if it makes you feel better, OP, a project lead (before the comicon troll moment) confirmed he/she lives

[Obadiah]

...

What we couldn't expect was that it would be forced into the story in all of the endings (Control technically doesn't have it, but it feels the same to many, especially since the story itself claims that their fate equals death). What we also couldn't expect was how artificially that sacrifice would be implemented, that it would feel like "there is sacrifice because there must be sacrifice" rather than a natural progression of the story like Mordin's or Victus' sacrifice. For me, the emotional impact of Shepard's fate did not lie in their death as such, but in the way they were casually thrown away by the story for religious allegory and to make a point about sacrifice.  

 

I guess that is something that I would have to experience personally to understand.

 

For myself, the sacrifice at the ending didn't seem forced or artificial. I certainly didn't get the message "there must be a sacrifice" from it. It seemed like the story took an unexpected turn, and, like Victus, Mordin, and Legion before, in order to achieve the goal Shepard would be be killed. The explanation for the cycles and the Crucible was unexpected and sci-fi-ey, but it was natural enough.

[DeinonSlayer]

Of those three, Obadiah, only Mordin's made sense. Any biotic could have easily caught Victus, and Legion goes out like Poochie the Dog for no apparent reason.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Of those three, Obadiah, only Mordin's made sense. Any biotic could have easily caught Victus, and Legion goes out like Poochie the Dog for no apparent reason.

 

Hell Victus could have easily secured himself via some kind of safety harness to the main part of the bomb. I don't know why he didn't do it to begin with.

[mopotter]

No they didn't underestimate that at all. It was that they wanted to throw a twist at the end of the story. I also think that they didn't know another way to end it. An unprepared galaxy fighting against a massive invincible enemy. A six foot tall human vs impossible odds. 

 

Solution? Write your own ending and publish it on FanFiction.net. Make it a good one and one that will be real to you, and forget the pile of crap ending. 5 years. I played the first two games 13 times with all the DLC. I played ME3 three times. The first time with my original Shepard. I'd planned to go through in order, but after that ending I didn't see a point. The second play was for the EC which did nothing for me - I still had the same empty feeling, and the third for Citadel and Omega. I watched Leviathan and it simply justified the existence of the Starbrat.

 

 

No they didn't underestimate that at all. It was that they wanted to throw a twist at the end of the story. I also think that they didn't know another way to end it. An unprepared galaxy fighting against a massive invincible enemy. A six foot tall human vs impossible odds. 

 

Solution? Write your own ending and publish it on FanFiction.net. Make it a good one and one that will be real to you, and forget the pile of crap ending. 5 years. I played the first two games 13 times with all the DLC. I played ME3 three times. The first time with my original Shepard. I'd planned to go through in order, but after that ending I didn't see a point. The second play was for the EC which did nothing for me - I still had the same empty feeling, and the third for Citadel and Omega. I watched Leviathan and it simply justified the existence of the Starbrat.

 

 I also had many Shepards on the 360, but played ME3 3 1/2 times, just enough times to make sure I hadn't missed something and I hadn't.   I still resent the idea that I had to come up with my own ending after seeing the burnt body.

 

If you play on the pc, the MEHEM helps.  At least it did for me when I got the series on sale for the pc.  

edit- i have no idea why it's got the two quotes instead of just one.  

[AlanC9]

Hell Victus could have easily secured himself via some kind of safety harness to the main part of the bomb. I don't know why he didn't do it to begin with.

He wasn't carrying one and didn't have time to get one?

[Iakus]

Art is pain, doom gloom, ambiguity and speculation....and if Mac allowed us to see a rescued Shepard even LESS people would have chosen his artistic pet endings.

if it makes you feel better, OP, a project lead (before the comicon troll moment) confirmed he/she lives

 

 

Yup.  True Art is Angsty  

[Barquiel]

So your one of the me1 was the best game in the trilogy kinda of people? All I gotta say is if I had played me1 first I would never have even played the rest of the trilogy. After all the praise it's story got on bsn I thought it would be amazing... Let's just say i was severly unimpressed.

 

ME1 isn't the best sci fi story ever told, of course. There are some things that didn't make much sense, imo. But I think it's almost a masterpiece compared to ME2/ME3.

 

There's also a sense of exploration in Mass Effect 1 that isn't quite there in ME2 and ME3. As for the characters...they were ok, but the squadmate dialogue definitely improved as the series progressed. I really liked the dynamic Normandy in ME3, with the crew moving around and having conversations with each other.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Of those three, Obadiah, only Mordin's made sense. Any biotic could have easily caught Victus, and Legion goes out like Poochie the Dog for no apparent reason.

 

Oh come on, it's symbolism again.... Victus represents the criminal for the Turians who unleashed the genophage. Legion represents the criminal for the Geth who committed genocide against the Quarians. And that leaves Shepard who has to die for the sins of the galaxy and becomes deified as "The Shepard." Don't you get it?

[shepskisaac]

Seriously guys, the scene and its intention is perfectly clear. I get if you wanted to see "rescued/recovering Shep" follow up but that's more of a detail territory, expressing the fact of survival is more important and you got it.

[mybudgee]

Uhh, it can happen. I'm playing DA2 for the first time right now.

Oh... I'm so sorry. My sympathies 

[The Sarendoctrinator]

Ya, I'm thinking that might be it....maybe they underestiimated how much some people would grow attached to the shep character. I don't mind (usually) when the protagonist dies in games, but this one seemed to affect me on a much deeper level. Probably because it was one played over the course of years real time (2009 to now). And will the series really be the same without shep? Kinda like bourne without jason bourne....not sure if it will be the same, or if people will just get to see characters they have grown to care about die in ME4. I wonder if in ME4 they forgo all of the endings and just do a prologue...Anderson running around in the first contact war? Don't know. ME3 just left me feeling really negative at the end because of how things ended for shep...in all of the endings..

 

That's what they said in one of the interviews, about underestimating the attachment to Shepard. I also started playing in 2009 (finished two playthroughs right before ME2 was released), and the thing that drew me to Mass Effect in the first place was the ability to create my own character. I wasn't really interested in the world or the story when I read about it years ago, but even though I ended up loving it, Shepard was and always will be the most important part of these games for me. 

 

I didn't mind the idea of playing another character when Shepard's trilogy was over. My problem is that they apparently felt the need to kill off Shepard to end his/her story. The forced sacrifice was unnecessary, and for a good number of Shepards, completely out of character. 

[angol fear]

Yup.  True Art is Angsty  

That's very boring to see people who don't know anything about art making fun of it, trying to define it or anything else. "Singing in the rain" is a piece of art, a real deep movie with several ways of reading it and a point of view on the cinema, on Hollywood. We actually don't care if it's happy or unhappy ending to decide if it's art or not. It's the internal consistency of the story, the ambition, the form used that decide itself if it's art. When the ending turn to be happy in a story that couldn't have a happy ending that's because of the commercial intention. What is criticized (when it's criticized) isn't the happy ending itself, it's that people want happy ending for happy ending, they actually don't care about the story and (the most important which is very different from the story) the writing.

Mass Effect couldn't have a happy ending, if it had it, it would be because of the commercial intention ("people want happy ending, we have put a lot of money on the game, we want a lot of money to come back, we'll satisfy them with a happy ending to have money!" I exaggerate a little bit but that's the idea) and it would destroy the writing itself. That's why fan fictions are so such a disappointment : every great idea the game have put in the end that make the writing consistent disappear and turn into a basic story that doesn't make sense.

And for TVtropes, wikipedia and other sites they are far from being a good source. TVtropes is full of bad ideas, bad definitions... it can be useful only when you're a beginner, not to criticize because it's like most things on internet : it's superficial and only give the impression of knowledge.

[archangel1996]

I think most people wanted a non-stupid ending. A happy ending, personally, i didn't want, infact i remember really wanting a sacrifice ending for my Shep during my first run.

An ending that needs 2 DLCs to be somewhat explained, and still do not not give any closure(that's the purpose of the 3rd DLC, Citadel), is not a good ending and it's not artistic at all, just cheap. As a matter of fact Last of Us' sayes hi :/

[angol fear]

I think most people wanted a non-stupid ending. An ending that needs 2 DLCs to be somewhat explained, and still do not not give any closure(that's the purpose of the 3rd DLC, Citadel), is not a good ending and it's not artistic at all, Last of Us' sayes hi :/

First, I didn't need the DLC to understand the ending (I don't like the extended cut, I like the writing of Leviathan but in the game it destroyed the structure of Mass Effect 3) and I didn't need other closure that what was given in the first place.

Second, who are you to qualify the ending "stupid" and to say that an ending is good or not and the worst if it's artistic or not? I understand why people didn't like but there are limits : even people working in art, like me, can't be that sure about the quality like you do.

Third, Last of us, yes one of the few games with Mass Effect and Dark Souls which has an interesting writing on this generation (xbox360 /ps3). But Mass Effect is Last of us? People want to play the same game again and again, they don't care about the game...

[Mcfly616]

I think most people wanted a non-stupid ending. A happy ending, personally, i didn't want, infact i remember really wanting a sacrifice ending for my Shep during my first run.
An ending that needs 2 DLCs to be somewhat explained, and still do not not give any closure(that's the purpose of the 3rd DLC, Citadel), is not a good ending and it's not artistic at all, just cheap. As a matter of fact Last of Us' sayes hi :/

Lol


please don't name drop TLoU. That **** isn't anything but an overhyped tps with a story that doesn't blaze any trails, just treads the path Bioware has been down before. It is literally praised for the same exact things ME3 is criticized for. It's baffling. Not to mention, if we're talking about things that are nonsensical, TLoU easily beats out Mass Effect in that regard. It's funny too, because it's not even a game in a series, it's just a single game and it's already about as overhyped as the MGS series.

[Iakus]

 

Mass Effect couldn't have a happy ending, if it had it, it would be because of the commercial intention ("people want happy ending, we have put a lot of money on the game, we want a lot of money to come back, we'll satisfy them with a happy ending to have money!" I exaggerate a little bit but that's the idea) and it would destroy the writing itself. That's why fan fictions are so such a disappointment : every great idea the game have put in the end that make the writing consistent disappear and turn into a basic story that doesn't make sense.

And for TVtropes, wikipedia and other sites they are far from being a good source. TVtropes is full of bad ideas, bad definitions... it can be useful only when you're a beginner, not to criticize because it's like most things on internet : it's superficial and only give the impression of knowledge.

Mass Effect couldn't have a happy ending?

 

       

 

Oh, my, there's my laugh for the day!  I guess I should thank you for that!

 

Though a word of advice:  avoid exaggerating here, or you'll get accused of all sorts of horrible things 

 

Mass Effect could have, should have, had a wide variety of endings, from happy to apacolyptically tragic.  The pieces were all there.  Heck the EMS system was practically designed for that.  AS well as teh concept of choice and consequences and importing saved games.  That taking different paths changes the story, making the outcome different.  Sometimes in good ways.  Sometimes in bad ways.  By forcing Shepard to be Walter White, to go down to a tragic conclusion regardless of what the player wanted or intended, defeats the entire purpose.  What could have been a wide open world full of possibilities gets reduced to a Red, Blue, and Green corridor.

[archangel1996]

First, I didn't need the DLC to understand the ending (I don't like the extended cut, I like the writing of Leviathan but in the game it destroyed the structure of Mass Effect 3) and I didn't need other closure that what was given in the first place.

Second, who are you to qualify the ending "stupid" and to say that an ending is good or not and the worst if it's artistic or not? I understand why people didn't like but there are limits : even people working in art, like me, can't be that sure about the quality like you do.

Third, Last of us, yes one of the few games with Mass Effect and Dark Souls which has an interesting writing on this generation (xbox360 /ps3). But Mass Effect is Last of us? People want to play the same game again and again, they don't care about the game...

First: in all honesty i don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing :/

Second: i would really like to start a discussion about why the ending is stupid(starting from Harbi going moron and Casper coming out of nowhere[i don't even think he was in the script of ME1 since he pretty much destroys the point of Sovereign's existence]) but i think the topic was addressed very much in the last 2 years, maybe, if you didn't already, you should read some of the old, well written posts that address the issue

Third: My point was that an ending does not need to be "happy" in order to be good. Last of Us' does not have a good ending but still managed to get people to talk about it, and not because they were pissed of about it, i may say. The difference between them, in my opinion, is that one is a realistic, complicate ending.... the other is ME3's one

 

Lol


please don't name drop TLoU. That **** isn't anything but an overhyped tps with a story that doesn't blaze any trails, just treads the path Bioware has been down before. Not to mention, if we're talking about things that are nonsensical, TLoU easily beats out Mass Effect in that regard. It's funny too, because it's not even a game in a series, it's just a single game and it's already about as overhyped as the MGS series.

 

LoL to you too

[Mcfly616]

Hmm I got a happy ending. Weird....




I guess the whole 'happy' thing is subjective....

[angol fear]

Hmm I got a happy ending. Weird....




I guess the whole 'happy' thing is subjective....

I had the same feeling the first time I've played it. Then I've seen that most people don't consider it a happy ending.

 

 

 

Third: My point was that an ending does not need to be "happy" in order to be good. Last of Us' does not have a good ending but still managed to get people to talk about it, and not because they were pissed of about it, i may say. The difference between them, in my opinion, is that one is a realistic, complicate ending.... the other is ME3's one 

That's what I've said earlier : "Singing in the rain" is one of the most impressive and one of the best film ever made. Happy ending or not I don't care if it's consistent (and Mass Effect is consistent in its writing). You can dislike the way it is but using another game that  has nothing to do with ME to say how it should have ended, that's disappointing. Mass Effect has always been unrealistic and had a lot of themes, interesting thoughts that only make sense with this ending. After that it's just matter of taste. (and the ending of Last of us is far from being complicated).

 

 

 

Mass Effect couldn't have a happy ending?

 

       

 

Oh, my, there's my laugh for the day!  I guess I should thank you for that!

 

Though a word of advice:  avoid exaggerating here, or you'll get accused of all sorts of horrible things 

 

Mass Effect could have, should have, had a wide variety of endings, from happy to apacolyptically tragic.  The pieces were all there.  Heck the EMS system was practically designed for that.  AS well as teh concept of choice and consequences and importing saved games.  That taking different paths changes the story, making the outcome different.  Sometimes in good ways.  Sometimes in bad ways.  By forcing Shepard to be Walter White, to go down to a tragic conclusion regardless of what the player wanted or intended, defeats the entire purpose.  What could have been a wide open world full of possibilities gets reduced to a Red, Blue, and Green corridor.

You have chosen between art and entertainment. You have chosen pure entertainment. Technically, every story can have happy ending when you ignore the writing.