The argument was that since it was already done in origins I suspect it would feel less original... it would be the second exception. I wouldn't have a massive issue with it, I just think Dalish is a significantly better fit.
Eh, second exception is still not telling. Protagonists aren't typically bound by the rules in general because by their nature of being protagonists, they tend to rise above.
Believe I mentioned this before, but once again: if you're an elf, you're Dalish.
Since Dalish Elves are the guaranteed type of elf being played, I wonder how City Elves will treat them.
Boooooooo. Now I'm stuck playing a racist bigot if I go elf.
Would it be more palatable if you could portray the Dalish Elf in a way that was less racist and more willing to be collaborative?
Would it be more palatable if you could portray the Dalish Elf in a way that was less racist and more willing to be collaborative?
Well yeah, but then it would go against everything it means to be a dalish. Being dalish is about rejecting all things non-elven and especially anything with human involvement in it, and having a predisposition to it as inferior. It's about hating humans either for taking away a supposed immortality, enslaving them, not falling over easily after the second blight for them to take over, or for still being mad at them after they already beat them so thoroughly. Isolating and rejecting all elves who live with humans unless they come crawling back to them and begging to be let back into the clan, and being very, very, very, ethnocentric and racially minded when making judgements and decisions. Your pretty much living a survival game in a post apocalypse if you're a dalish in the human lands, and you can't afford to have understanding or empathy for these invaders that you have been taught will have no sympathy for you.
Not being concerned with the cultural purity of the elves and open to working with uncle tam elves of the alienages, or creators forbid humans, would be paramount to heresy if you're going to play any sort of dalish seriously. A dalish inquisitor would be likely to spit or attempt to shank the divine before ever agreeing to work in any sort of tandem with her and her false religion. The clan come first, and foremost, and everything else is just a minor distraction or inconvenience.
Boooooooo. Now I'm stuck playing a racist bigot if I go elf.
Well, that would be new... being racist was always an option as a Dalish elf (in DA:O), but not the only option.
Would it be more palatable if you could portray the Dalish Elf in a way that was less racist and more willing to be collaborative?
Well yeah, but then it would go against everything it means to be a dalish. Being dalish is about rejecting all things non-elven and especially anything with human involvement in it, and having a predisposition to it as inferior. It's about hating humans either for taking away a supposed immortality, enslaving them, not falling over easily after the second blight for them to take over, or for still being mad at them after they already beat them so thoroughly. Isolating and rejecting all elves who live with humans unless they come crawling back to them and begging to be let back into the clan, and being very, very, very, ethnocentric and racially minded when making judgements and decisions. Your pretty much living a survival game in a post apocalypse if you're a dalish in the human lands, and you can't afford to have understanding or empathy for these invaders that you have been taught will have no sympathy for you.
Not being concerned with the cultural purity of the elves and open to working with uncle tam elves of the alienages, or creators forbid humans, would be paramount to heresy if you're going to play any sort of dalish seriously. A dalish inquisitor would be likely to spit or attempt to shank the divine before ever agreeing to work in any sort of tandem with her and her false religion. The clan come first, and foremost, and everything else is just a minor distraction or inconvenience.
Ehm, where are you getting this? We've seen examples of all different kinds of Dalish. In DA2, for example, some of the Dalish were hostile towards Hawke and co. while others were much more welcoming. One of them I recall even says, "If the Keeper wants you here, then be welcome," in a very kind voice. Merrill and Marethari are both polite towards Hawke. So is Master Ilen.
Sure the core concepts of being Dalish are about isolationism and a desire to reclaim a culture of old, but the game has never forced us to play racist Dalish, nor has every Dalish been racist.
The Dalish clans are also all different from one another; they aren't all identical to one another. It's like condemning all Andrastian humans as racists because of how elves are treated by many humans.
Like what the dalish did in the dalish origin?
Well yeah, but then it would go against everything it means to be a dalish. Being dalish is about rejecting all things non-elven and especially anything with human involvement in it, and having a predisposition to it as inferior. It's about hating humans either for taking away a supposed immortality, enslaving them, not falling over easily after the second blight for them to take over, or for still being mad at them after they already beat them so thoroughly. Isolating and rejecting all elves who live with humans unless they come crawling back to them and begging to be let back into the clan, and being very, very, very, ethnocentric and racially minded when making judgements and decisions. Your pretty much living a survival game in a post apocalypse if you're a dalish in the human lands, and you can't afford to have understanding or empathy for these invaders that you have been taught will have no sympathy for you.
Not being concerned with the cultural purity of the elves and open to working with uncle tam elves of the alienages, or creators forbid humans, would be paramount to heresy if you're going to play any sort of dalish seriously. A dalish inquisitor would be likely to spit or attempt to shank the divine before ever agreeing to work in any sort of tandem with her and her false religion. The clan come first, and foremost, and everything else is just a minor distraction or inconvenience.
I just don't think the game will let us actually disagree with the dalish philosophy and go counter to the heavily ethnocentric viewpoint. Or if we do, I fear it'll be in just minor posts that don't amount to anything and can't alter how we're perceived as by even our companions.
It's like, the city elves perspective and all possibilities involved with it, like being a devoted andrastian, or being a pragmatic con-artist, or even having a more revolutionist mindset, are all gone now, and all that's left is, well, the "Stay pure, Stay Green" elvish point of view. And that one of the only reasons I can think for that being, is that they really want to pound it in our heads that there are only 1 type of elf and one way to be an elf that matters in this game, and it's these ones.
Like what the dalish did in the dalish origin?
I'll just need to wait and see it, before I can bring myself to actually believing it.
I admit, my reaction is mostly coming from personal disappointment. I had planned on making a elf who was both andrastian and a progressive who didn't believe in holding onto past grudges and lost history in favor of improving the present and future. And that, in itself, is so far out of the range of being a dalsih that I can't see it being possible anymore, so basically I'm taking this as losing a potential investment. Dare I say it is anti-dalish, for being against clinging to the past, for being in favor of forgiving humans, and being pro-integrating into their society to try and better the lives of elves as a whole and raise everyone up to equal status.
Give it a month or so and I'll probably be over it, but right now it's fresh and throbbing. All I can say is I hope what you're saying is true allan, and I wish the dev team best of luck in incorporating as many views as feasibly possible into the different racial options without overworking or overloading it.
If being Dalish means you're "forced to play a racist", then by the same logic, since every human nation is a pervasively racist society then you are also forced to be racist if you play a human. Ergo you are forced to be racist no matter who you pick to play as in the game.
Dwarves are so insanely traditionalist they fear anyone who goes outside is tainted by the losing their stone sense, therefore they must also be racist.
I'll just need to wait and see it, before I can bring myself to actually believing it.
I admit, my reaction is mostly coming from personal disappointment. I had planned on making a elf who was both andrastian and a progressive who didn't believe in holding onto past grudges and lost history in favor of improving the present and future. And that, in itself, is so far out of the range of being a dalsih that I can't see it being possible anymore, so basically I'm taking this as losing a potential investment. Dare I say it is anti-dalish, for being against clinging to the past, for being in favor of forgiving humans, and being pro-integrating into their society to try and better the lives of elves as a whole and raise everyone up to equal status.
Give it a month or so and I'll probably be over it, but right now it's fresh and throbbing. All I can say is I hope what you're saying is true allan, and I wish the dev team best of luck in incorporating as many views as feasibly possible into the different racial options without overworking or overloading it.
I'm of a similar mindset. I was all excited to play as a City Elf as my first playthough, setting up how I think I would play the character...and then this news landed in our lap.
Well playing a elitist and racist dwarf is just a given, I mean for god sakes they have a religious decree that you're worst then casteless if you live on the surface. That is some deep seated geographically based racism if I ever heard it.
Humans though come in enough variety that there can be some wiggle room, same as qunari tbh because they'll all be tal-vashoth and you can get away with a lot doing that, since they basically beliveing in nothing except not living by the qun.
If we were going to be pigeonholed in our choice of human, as in we're restricted to being an orlesian noble for instance, I would probably have complaints because there are so many other stories to tell as a human then just that. Like there are so many stories to tell of elves besides dalish, and so many stories to tell about dwarves outside of casteless.
I'm of a similar mindset. I was all excited to play as a City Elf as my first playthough, setting up how I think I would play the character...and then this news landed in our lap.
This is definitely part of the risk that I tried sharing with people in the "human only protagonist" thread, in that it's not simply allowing the player to be any race, but a lot of the unspoken associations and assumptions that come with it. And by including something like Qunari, we end up taking away the opportunity to do other things... but then a lot of people are excited by the Qunari too!
It's a tough spot and it's sucky but few actions will please everyone, even if on first read of news like that it makes people super excited because that excitement bleeds over into the imagination and the assumptions/hope that it fuels.
I understand that cuts and sacrifices need to be made in order to keep within budget, believe me. And I am grateful that you guys brought back races, and even added a new race option, don't get me wrong here. You guys not only addressed a long standing complaint but went above and beyond in addressing it by adding the qunari option, and that outweighs this personal disappointment by a longshot.
it's just that this news is still a little fresh. Let it sit a while and it'll settle down, and it looks like a lot of the people on this forum are pro-dalish only elves. So you guys probably made the best choice in that regard when it came to cutting a background option for the elves.
it's just that this news is still a little fresh.
Fair enough and that's understandable.
This is definitely part of the risk that I tried sharing with people in the "human only protagonist" thread, in that it's not simply allowing the player to be any race, but a lot of the unspoken associations and assumptions that come with it. And by including something like Qunari, we end up taking away the opportunity to do other things... but then a lot of people are excited by the Qunari too!
It's a tough spot and it's sucky but few actions will please everyone, even if on first read of news like that it makes people super excited because that excitement bleeds over into the imagination and the assumptions/hope that it fuels.
I understand, and given time I am sure I will get over it somewhat. These things always happen, but you never expect your side to get it kind of mentality I guess.
On the positive side it at least cleared up my first playthrough. I was bouncing between City Elf and Vashoth, so now that choice was made for me. 
You mean Tamlen, and possibly the Dalish protagonist, if you choose to shape your character that way? That's hardly sufficient reason to vilify all the Dalish.
I was very happy my Dalish Warrior could acknowledge her heritage without being bigoted for example.
Boooooooo. Now I'm stuck playing a racist bigot if I go elf.
By that reasoning, you'll also be stuck as an arrogant bigot if you go Qunari, a classist bigot if you go dwarf, and either a religious bigot or insane blood mage if you go human (depending on whether or not you can use magic). Aren't generalizations fun?
I just don't think the game will let us actually disagree with the dalish philosophy and go counter to the heavily ethnocentric viewpoint. Or if we do, I fear it'll be in just minor posts that don't amount to anything and can't alter how we're perceived as by even our companions.
It's like, the city elves perspective and all possibilities involved with it, like being a devoted andrastian, or being a pragmatic con-artist, or even having a more revolutionist mindset, are all gone now, and all that's left is, well, the "Stay pure, Stay Green" elvish point of view. And that one of the only reasons I can think for that being, is that they really want to pound it in our heads that there are only 1 type of elf and one way to be an elf that matters in this game, and it's these ones.
Because it's not like the Dalish Warden couldn't subvert cultural expectations, and Merrill was so very much the holier-than-thou bigot, wasn't she? There's clearly no other way to be Dalish other than rejecting anything that isn't them! I mean, just look at the disrespect they give to a Grey Warden!
By that reasoning, you'll also be stuck as an arrogant bigot if you go Qunari, a classist bigot if you go dwarf, and either a religious bigot or insane blood mage if you go human (depending on whether or not you can use magic). Aren't generalizations fun?
We don't know how Vashoth are about other races, so them being bigoted may be inaccurate. For all we know, Vashoth are the friendly to everyone group.
We don't know how Vashoth are about other races, so them being bigoted may be inaccurate. For all we know, Vashoth are the friendly to everyone group.
As I said: "Aren't generalizations fun?"
I don't think limited variety of backgrounds will spoil any playthrough for me. Unless my dalish inquisitor speaks elven and it's not in dialogue choices 
I'm more interested in the transition between the "origin" and inquisitior, how much of the background will be visible in him/her.
Break RP by too many plot/dialogue constraints (PC has background already written, player cannot change it nor insert himself/herself nor change his/her perspective over time about events in the past) or make character background insignificant (player can relate only to his/her choices within the story, which, for me, is kind of annoying when every other single NPC has a past). I hope it'll be balanced somehow.
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