1079 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

While I personally don't often role an elf, I do feel bad for those who might have been looking forward to a City Elf run.

[LobselVith8]

Who said anything about surrendering their identity or capitulating to the Chantry. You're the only one who ever brings that up, and act as if it were the only option when dealing with humanity.

 

Unless the leader of the kingdom is progressive, like Queen Anora or King Alistair, then I'm not seeing the point in acting as though it's a simple matter of reaching out to humanity, or how some continue to keep blaming the Dalish because their religion is outlawed in Andrastian lands by the Chantry and free mages are expressively prohibited by the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars. Being Dalish makes them outlaws in Andrastian lands, with the sole exception of the semi-permanent Dalish settlement that's supposed to be outside Llomerryn in the kingdom of Rivain, which was mentioned by Gaider (although the banter between Merrill and Isabela may suggest this has been changed).

[TK514]

If I recall correctly the dealings we had with the Dalish as humans in Both DA games, were not nearly as unpleasant as some people make them out to be...

To be fair, in DA:O, we're were members of a group even the Dalish consider storybook heroes, and in 2 were were, to start, the direct representatives of a being the Dalish use to scare their children into behaving. Later, we were at least partly excused by association and Marethari's desperation to get her beloved daughter surrogate back.

So not exactly traditional interactions, in either case. Although you are correct that My party seemed more curious than antagonistic towards the Dalish. I suspect most people never even think about them, much less encounter one.

[TK514]

Unless the leader of the kingdom is progressive, like Queen Anora or King Alistair, then I'm not seeing the point in acting as though it's a simple matter of reaching out to humanity, or how some continue to keep blaming the Dalish because their religion is outlawed in Andrastian lands by the Chantry and free mages are expressively prohibited by the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars. Being Dalish makes them outlaws in Andrastian lands, with the sole exception of the semi-permanent Dalish settlement that's supposed to be outside Llomerryn in the kingdom of Rivain, which was mentioned by Gaider (although the banter between Merrill and Isabela may suggest this has been changed).

I also never said it would be simple. Nor did I say it would be easy. Or that it would happen overnight. Or that it would come without compromise from both sides.

But that's the real key. The Dalish have to be willing to Compromise. They have to be willing to settle for less than they want in order to get more than they have. They have to be willing to accept that humanity is not going anywhere, and internalize that if they intend to stay on the continent of Thedas, they will have to find a way to at least work with the human nations.

All of which is diplomacy and none of which requires the surrendering of their culture or capitulation to the Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

I also never said it would be simple. Nor did I say it would be easy. Or that it would happen overnight. Or that it would come without compromise from both sides.

But that's the real key. The Dalish have to be willing to Compromise. They have to be willing to settle for less than they want in order to get more than they have. They have to be willing to accept that humanity is not going anywhere, and internalize that if they intend to stay on the continent of Thedas, they will have to find a way to at least work with the human nations.

All of which is diplomacy and none of which requires the surrendering of their culture or capitulation to the Chantry.

 

I don't see how the Dalish are supposed to compromise with people who have made them into outlaws for their religion alone and condemn them as heretics, and who vilify magic and mages to the point where lynch mobs attempt to murder innocent mages for things they aren't responsible for. The Dalish aren't going to surrender their mages, they aren't going to acquiesce to the demands to convert to the human religion, and they aren't going to give up their culture or their heritage.

 

Humans have no reason to compromise with the Dalish, or any elven group for that matter. Honestly, I don't think you're being realistic here. Even the Alienage elves who aided Loghain and the Ferelden rebellion during the Orlesian occupation weren't able to get a better deal for their efforts in liberating Ferelden, and I doubt that things would be any different for the Dalish.

 

For the time being, the People are doing what they need to do in order to survive and prevent the loss of their culture. I'm hoping Inquisition proves an opportunity to change that, so the Elvhen can get more than a nomadic life of survival.

[Lulupab]

I don't see how the Dalish are supposed to compromise with people who have made them into outlaws for their religion alone and condemn them as heretics, and who vilify magic and mages to the point where lynch mobs attempt to murder innocent mages for things they aren't responsible for. The Dalish aren't going to surrender their mages, they aren't going to acquiesce to the demands to convert to the human religion, and they aren't going to give up their culture or their heritage.

 

Humans have no reason to compromise with the Dalish, or any elven group for that matter. Honestly, I don't think you're being realistic here. Even the Alienage elves who aided Loghain and the Ferelden rebellion during the Orlesian occupation weren't able to get a better deal for their efforts in liberating Ferelden, and I doubt that things would be any different for the Dalish.

 

For the time being, the People are doing what they need to do in order to survive and prevent the loss of their culture. I'm hoping Inquisition proves an opportunity to change that, so the Elvhen can get more than a nomadic life of survival.

 

So much this. There really isn't a compromise.

 

I cannot wait to play a Dalish mage. I was utterly disappointed when I couldn't role a Daish mage in DAO.

 

I'm going to be a saint towards elves and mages while making Anders and Velanna appear like saints in eyes of Templars and the people who follow them.

 

May the creators have mercy on their souls, I certainly wont.

[TK514]

Interesting how the Chasind seem to be doing just fine. They aren't Andrastian, they don't surrender their Mages, and they aren't forced to give up their culture. And not an Exalted March in sight.

[Lulupab]

Interesting how the Chasind seem to be doing just fine. They aren't Andrastian, they don't surrender their Mages, and they aren't forced to give up their culture. And not an Exalted March in sight.

 

And why are you implying we know a lot about them? For one we only know they live in kocari wilds. There is no indication there are many of them elsewhere. Also they are not so different than the Dalish, because they are human they pass through lands easily and they keep their mages out of sight. otherwise same as the dalish.

 

And we do know the Templars go hunt chasind apostates.

[TK514]

And why are you implying we know a lot about them? For one we only know they live in kocari wilds. There is no indication there are many of them elsewhere. Also they are not so different than the Dalish, because they are human they pass through lands easily and they keep their mages out of sight. otherwise same as the dalish.

And we do know the Templars go hunt chasind apostates.

Your point?

Mine is if the Chasind can do it, why can't the Dalish?

If religion, culture and Mages are really the reasons the Dalish can't settle, why aren't they emulating the Chasind?

In fact, I'll take it one step further: The Chasind have what the Dalish want. They have their own religion, culture, methods for dealing with Mages, and, most importantly, territory where they are left almost completely alone. You'd think more Dalish would be looking at how the Chasind do it.

[LobselVith8]

Interesting how the Chasind seem to be doing just fine. They aren't Andrastian, they don't surrender their Mages, and they aren't forced to give up their culture. And not an Exalted March in sight.

 

The Chasind live away from Andrastian society, and despite that, templars enter the areas where they reside; it's not as though they ignore free mages in the Wilds, or anything like that. It's the reason Flemeth and Morrigan dealt with templars, which Morrigan described as a "game" when she was a child.

[BlueMagitek]

And the sister who gets the Chant wrong in Denerim, if the player is a dwarf and asks about dwarves pretty much calls the whole race heathens.

 

Dwarves consume lyrium and worship some lovecraftian abomination called The Stone; they're also the only species unable to naturally reach the Fade. 

 

Sounds like we're looking at some dark heresy.

[TK514]

The Chasind live away from Andrastian society, and despite that, templars enter the areas where they reside; it's not as though they ignore free mages in the Wilds, or anything like that. It's the reason Flemeth and Morrigan dealt with templars, which Morrigan described as a "game" when she was a child.

So what if the Templars enter. The Chasind certainly aren't giving up their Mages or 'bending a knee to the Chantry'. They either hide or kill the Templars. And live their lives exactly as they see fit. Or are you changing the conditions of the discussion from 'culture, magic, not being Chantry' to 'no one ever crosses the border unless we say it's ok', because that doesn't even happen between human nations.

And even when the Chasind kill off Templars, or let Morrigan/Flemeth do it...

Still no Exalted March.

[TK514]

The Chasind live away from Andrastian society

I'm quoting this again, because I'd like clarity on this, specifically.

The Chasind live away from Andrastian society.

So why don't the Dalish? What possible reason could they have for wanting a plot of land that is right next door to Andraste Central? Land 'stolen' from someone else to give to them so long ago that they have been wanderers for longer than they actually had a nation there?

I mean, seriously, if you wet yourself every time someone mentions Andraste or Templars and go fleeing off to the next patch of woods, why would you want to move back next door to the nation that has the most Andraste followers, and the most reason to hate you? A plot of land that history has shown was no impediment to them coming in and killing you until you cried uncle and ran off the last time, when you actually had an army and troops worth the name, and which they have had centuries to get used to as 'home field advantage'?

You'd think common sense would suggest the Chasind might be on to something.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm not saying it's impossible, but the two are (more often than not) in conflict with one another. As per your example, Ariane is in the company of the Warden-Commander, but she defeated at least one templar to protect Keeper Solan and her clan some time before the events of "Witch Hunt" to protect her clan.

 

Also, Ariane points out the initial hostility that she receives from the templar when arriving at Kinloch Hold because she's Dalish (which the Warden-Commander can even comment on).

 

Yeah but Hedley never objected to her presence nor did he act outraged that the Warden brought an elf to the Circle. Her reception from the templars was much less cold than the the way the Dalish tribe initially greeted human Wardens in Origins.

[LobselVith8]

So what if the Templars enter. The Chasind certainly aren't giving up their Mages or 'bending a knee to the Chantry'. They either hide or kill the Templars. And live their lives exactly as they see fit. Or are you changing the conditions of the discussion from 'culture, magic, not being Chantry' to 'no one ever crosses the border unless we say it's ok', because that doesn't even happen between human nations.

And even when the Chasind kill off Templars, or let Morrigan/Flemeth do it...

Still no Exalted March.

 

The Chasind live in the Korcari Wilds, a region that many Fereldens consider 'cursed', in part because of the legends of the Witches of the Wild, and Ferelden is a relatively "new" nation, with some still seeing the society as barbaric. It was only a few centuries ago that Calenhad and Aldenon the Wise established the nation from warring teyrnirs.

 

Considering the recent history between Orlais and Ferelden, where the Orlesian Empire (with Chantry support) occupied the nation for over a century, I doubt there would be an Exalted March against the Chasind anytime soon.

[Lorien19]

Interesting how the Chasind seem to be doing just fine. They aren't Andrastian, they don't surrender their Mages, and they aren't forced to give up their culture. And not an Exalted March in sight.

Mainly because the Chasind are a considerably smaller community than the Dalish,and happen to live in one of the most notorious locations in Ferelden(If not thedas),a place people are afraid to tread in and avoid like the plague, they're still occasionally persecuted by the templars though...Besides if every single dalish clan from every corner of Thedas settled in one place they could probably form a small nation,so it'd be probably be impossible for the human settlements to ignore them.

[Steelcan]

Mainly because the Chasind are a considerably smaller community than the Dalish,and happen to live in one of the most notorious locations in Ferelden(If not thedas),a place people are afraid to tread in and avoid like the plague, they're still occasionally persecuted by the templars though...Besides if every single dalish clan from every corner of Thedas settled in one place they could probably form a small nation,so it'd be probably be impossible for the human settlements to ignore them.

And be promptly wiped out again, settling in one place would just make the Andrastians job that much easier

[Jedi Master of Orion]

We know enough about the Chasind to know they have mostly peaceful relations with the Fereldens. They even seem to trade with them in Lothering on a semi regular basis.

[LobselVith8]

I'm quoting this again, because I'd like clarity on this, specifically.

The Chasind live away from Andrastian society.

So why don't the Dalish? What possible reason could they have for wanting a plot of land that is right next door to Andraste Central? Land 'stolen' from someone else to give to them so long ago that they have been wanderers for longer than they actually had a nation there?

I mean, seriously, if you wet yourself every time someone mentions Andraste or Templars and go fleeing off to the next patch of woods, why would you want to move back next door to the nation that has the most Andraste followers, and the most reason to hate you? A plot of land that history has shown was no impediment to them coming in and killing you until you cried uncle and ran off the last time, when you actually had an army and troops worth the name, and which they have had centuries to get used to as 'home field advantage'?

You'd think common sense would suggest the Chasind might be on to something.

 

The elven rebellion was mentioned in Asunder, and it's possibly part of the plot of the Masked Empire, which is heavily suggested to involve Alienage and Dalish elves in it's plot. Given the large elven population in Orlais, perhaps they are looking to emancipate the Dales from Orlesian control since humans are fleeing en mass from the occupied territory. We don't have all the facts at this point in time.

 

Also, I doubt the Dalish "wet" themselves over the Chantry or the templars. Ariane defeated the templar who threatened her people, the Dalish from the Sabrae clan made it clear they wouldn't back down from the templars who tortured a child from the clan. The Sabrae clan also refused to convert to the human religion despite the threats of violence against them, and Merrill is willing to fight the templars on her own to protect an entire population of mages from being executed during Meredith's Right of Annulment, even if it means her death.

[Steelcan]

The Chascind are too distant and small to bother with, there also haven't been any large scale chascind attacks on Andrastian nations that I am aware of

[LobselVith8]

Yeah but Hedley never objected to her presence nor did he act outraged that the Warden brought an elf to the Circle. Her reception from the templars was much less cold than the the way the Dalish tribe initially greeted human Wardens in Origins.

 

Hedley didn't have much of a choice since the Warden-Commander was present, which also colored the entire conversation.

[Mistic]

Yeah but Hedley never objected to her presence nor did he act outraged that the Warden brought an elf to the Circle. Her reception from the templars was much less cold than the the way the Dalish tribe initially greeted human Wardens in Origins.

 

I don't think it's a fair comparison. Ariane doesn't go alone. By the time of Witch Hunt, the Warden can be the Hero of Ferelden and/or the Arl of Amaranthine. In his eyes, that's more than enough. I mean, if you're a Dalish Warden, you even have the option to remind him that Ariane is not the only Dalish in the tower. That little scene actually explained a lot: many people in Ferelden will never realize that the Warden is not just an elf, but a Dalish elf.

 

And you just bring one elf. In DA:O you bring a full armed party to a stressed clan recently attacked by werewolves. A better example would be to compare Ariane's reception with the Warden to the party's reception in the Dalish camp with a Dalish Warden. Logically, the elves were much more understanding and friendly than with a different Warden.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Chascind are too distant and small to bother with, there also haven't been any large scale chascind attacks on Andrastian nations that I am aware of

 

Not since the Second Blight anyway. The Avvars invaded Ferelden as recently as the Steel Age though and they haven't suffered an Exalted March either.

[Steelcan]

Not since the Second Blight anyway. The Avvars invaded Ferelden as recently as the Steel Age though and they haven't suffered an Exalted March either.

 

Also remote iirc, and no real threat to Andrastian nations

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Avvar invasion burned the bannorn to the ground and caused a massive famine in Ferelden during the middle of the Qunari Wars. I don't think the Dalish elves have ever managed to cause that level of destruction.

 

Also, I doubt the Dalish "wet" themselves over the Chantry or the templars. Ariane defeated the templar who threatened her people, the Dalish from the Sabrae clan made it clear they wouldn't back down from the templars who tortured a child from the clan. The Sabrae clan also refused to convert to the human religion despite the threats of violence against them, and Merrill is willing to fight the templars on her own to protect an entire population of mages from being executed during Meredith's Right of Annulment, even if it means her death.

 

I think his point is that since the Dalish make a point of avoiding the templars as it is, why would they trying to pick land in the center of Chantry territory.