1079 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Ghost_Dance
I was thinking the Dalish might prefer something akin to the Lakota interpretation, but other ones would work too.

Considering that the dalish wants to reclaim the Dales, I'd agree, though i don't understand your point. From what I read the Ghost Dance theorized of cooperation between indians and whites, and the end of the wars between them. I was stating that elves and humans need to learn to cooperate. Why do you think it'd be a shame?

[Xilizhra]

Considering that the dalish wants to reclaim the Dales, I'd agree, though i don't understand your point. From what I read the Ghost Dance theorized of cooperation between indians and whites, and the end of the wars between them. I was stating that elves and humans need to learn to cooperate. Why do you think it'd be a shame?

Well, I'd been a tad misinformed prior; I thought that the interpretation of it where white people were completely removed from the American continent was more dominant.

[The Elder King]

Well, I'd been a tad misinformed prior; I thought that the interpretation of it where white people were completely removed from the American continent was more dominant.

Understood. Though what exactly did you compare the Lakota version in Thedas, that the human at expelled from Thedas, of from the Dales?

[Xilizhra]

Understood. Though what exactly did you compare the Lakota version in Thedas, that the human at expelled from Thedas, of from the Dales?

To be frank, I just want some circumstance to allow their societies to interact as equals.

[The Elder King]

To be frank, I just want some circumstance to allow their societies to interact as equals.

I understand your point, but I honestly don't want thousands of humans to die just to even the situation. And i don't think Bioware will ever make the elves reach a position where they can face all the human countries. Furthermore, even if possible it'd take decades to achieve it (you should consider that the elves have to build up a country from little).
I think cooperation is possible, if both sides are willing to follow this path.

[EmperorSahlertz]

 

Yes, they seem to be supporting Gaspard in the Orlesian Civil War. And with the last name being strongly Dalish, I doubt they'll have it as "You were a City Elf who ran away".

Uhm... Gaspard is rebelling BECAUSE Celene has been too lenient to the Elves.... Why on earth would the Elves support Gaspard?

[BlueMagitek]

Uhm... Gaspard is rebelling BECAUSE Celene has been too lenient to the Elves.... Why on earth would the Elves support Gaspard?

If women can prove themselves to be Chevaliers, why not elves?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Gaspard is an opponent of Elves getting more rights. Why would Elves support him?

[BlueMagitek]

Gaspard is an opponent of Elves getting more rights. Why would Elves support him?

I don't know enough the situation to give you an answer.

 

Edit:  I swear, my 'k' only works half the time

[LobselVith8]

Enlighten me if I'm wrong, Orlais lost the initial war against Dales and was able to strike back with exalted marches. Though I think most Mages and Templars joining that march came from Orlais itself however they had more help from other nations when the attack Dales. But my point is Dales was as strong as one human nation right? With chantry gone and Thedas not united Elves could fight one nation and may even win.

Ariane's dialogue suggests the Circles also played a role on the fall of the Dales, and the theft of some elven artifacts and lore.

[TK514]

Gaspard is an opponent of Elves getting more rights. Why would Elves support him?

I've been wondering this myself.

The jacket blurb for the next book tells us Gaspard disagrees with Celene's leniency towards elves and Mages, then implies that the elves are going to betray Celene.

Which is why I've asked in the past why Celene and Gaspard wouldn't just put their debate on hold to crush a common enemy.

Really doesn't make a lot of sense for the elves to stab an ally like Celene in the back, unless they're just going to be turned into the cliche revolutionaries who are incapable of patience or loyalty.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Because elves are poor, stupid, and desperate, and gaspard is probably a very good liar in convincing them he'll get them more gold and power if they side with him. Then he'll kick the platform out from under them and let them dangle in the wind when they've done their job.

[EmperorSahlertz]

There is nothing that suggests that the Elves are fighting for Gaspard. People ahve just jumped to the conclusion that since the Elves are rebelling at the same time, that the two are allies.

[dragonflight288]

There is nothing that suggests that the Elves are fighting for Gaspard. People ahve just jumped to the conclusion that since the Elves are rebelling at the same time, that the two are allies.

 

I have seen absolutely nothing that suggests the elves are allied with either Gaspard or Celene. Only that they're rebelling at the same time an Orlesian civil war is going on. 

[Master Warder Z_]

It is a long shot, regrettably. But bringing back the elves as a power significant enough to rival the humans will be a lot trickier otherwise.

 

As in an impossibility

 

And i strongly doubt that magically happening for "reasons"..

[LobselVith8]

The point seems to have gone over your head. The story goes, the Grey Wardens were so impressed by Orlais' shenanigans (meaning crazy valor and effectiveness in the second blight), that they decided to convert to/assist the Chantry in spreading the Chant.

I'm well aware of Drakon's desire to convert everyone to his Cult of the Maker turned nationalized religion; it colored the actions he took. I'll credit the dwarves with valor and effectiveness in fighting the darkspawn, since they have handled the struggle virtually on their own, while both humans and elves (as a whole) ignored their war against the true fulcrum of evil.

As for the Dalish, they don't seem to push their faith on outsiders. The elves who adopt the faith of the Creators do so willingly, and the Dalish even allow those who want to go their own way to leave.

Also, your dig at Burkel, I'm should be shocked that you find that one of the few people in dwarvern society that wants to help widows, orphans & the casteless to be awful, but I don't. Even with your weird issues with missionaries, it's a bit sick that you're against Burkel "imposing" his religion on the masses whose caste system has failed them.

You and I clearly don't see eye to eye about Burkel. To me, Burkel's actions resemble Drakon's: helping others with the intent on converting them. We also see what ensues once the Chantry of Andraste is no longer the minority, and the monstrosities that unfold when they have power, and that horrifies me.

In the long run, I think things could be even worse, especially if conversion leads to the humans of the Chantry ruling over the dwarves. Also, Burkel's disdain for non-Andrastians was sufficient enough reason for my Warden to call him out on looking down on non-Andrastians, which ended the conversation. Personally, I found his attitude towards those who didn't follow his faith to be repugnant.

Last but not least, I have a "weird issue" with forcing your religion on people, especially those who have no interest in forsaking their own religion for yours.

[Master Warder Z_]

When did Burkel express disdain? He seemed like a simpleton to me. You're making him out to be some radical. lol

 

I don't disagree with you in principle (about forcing religion), but the guy just wanted to open a chantry. Which turned out to be a garbage dump with two other dwarves. Then he got killed. Case closed.

 

If anything he is proof of the intolerance of outside idea's and ideologies in the rigid dwarven caste system.

 

He was actually quite pleasant even if you refused to help him.

[LobselVith8]

Actually, I could see this happening. Given enough of a elven presence, I do think they'll start exerting a pressure to convert humans to following the Creator's.

To paraphrase Merrill (in her dialogue with Sebastian), I don't think the Dalish will force humans to want to be elves.

They do expect elves to convert to the Creators after all. The step to start expecting humans to "realise the truth" isn't a long one. It's just that they've never been in a position to impose their faith on anyone else.

They want to teach elves who have a desire to learn. The Dalish teach the willing, they don't force their religion on anyone, and I don't see a homeland changing that; the Elvhen don't even stop members of the clan if they want to leave.

Perhaps they might keep out Andrastian elves from a Dalish homeland, out of concern over the elves of the Chantry trying to force everyone to convert (given their historical account about the fall of the Dales, and what ensued when the elves refused to submit to the human religion).

It'll be done through a saturation of information (ie: hearing of the elven worldview at every turn), social stimulus (taxes, protection, social inclusivity) and if really unlucky: by the sword.

The only way this will not happen, is to forcibly ensure there are no humans close enough to warrant influence over them.

I honestly don't see the Dalish wanting to convert humans. At all. Their religion is for elves, not humans. Even Merrill scoffs at Sebastian's suggestion that their two religions are identical because of how different they are.

[Master Warder Z_]

Perhaps they might keep out Andrastian elves from a Dalish homeland, out of concern over the elves of the Chantry trying to force everyone to convert (given their historical account about the fall of the Dales, and what ensued when the elves refused to submit to the human religion).

 

 

You left out the bit about them invading their Human Neighbors and picking a fight. It wasn't just their rejection of the Chantry, that wasn't even a major part of the series of events if we look at all the lore presented.

 

It wasn't just that they annoyed a few missionaries, You know murdering an entire settlement, marching on the capital, that little declaration of war was what triggered the series of events that led to the destruction of the Dales even more so then the Chantry put out. Considering Orlais made no move to actually do much when the Chantry started griping.

[LobselVith8]

Because elves are poor, stupid, and desperate, and gaspard is probably a very good liar in convincing them he'll get them more gold and power if they side with him. Then he'll kick the platform out from under them and let them dangle in the wind when they've done their job.

Perhaps the elves are waging their own war for independence in the Dales while Celene and Gaspard are occupied over the throne? With the Mage-Templar War, the mages and templars are also unavailable to lend aid to stop an elven rebellion, especially one that may involve the Dalish.

[Master Warder Z_]

He's got balls at least. I'll give him that. Orzammar's pretty brutal in general. You're supposed to get that idea the minute you see Bhelen and Harrowmont arguing.

 

I'm merely pointing out the Dalish and Dwarves have a few things in common when it comes to intolerance for idea's they didn't think of.

 

Plus they are both extremely sore losers Get over it already, Humans rule the world now.