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[Master Warder Z_]

Perhaps the elves are waging their own war for independence in the Dales while Celene and Gaspard are occupied over the throne? With the Mage-Templar War, the mages and templars are also unavailable to lend aid to stop an elven rebellion, especially one that may involve the Dalish.

 

Their actions of blocking the Road to the Capital and forcing the Empress to flee belay that notion to me.

 

If that was their intent that would be the worst possible move if they didn't want their two little Orlaisians there to put aside their differences and you know, get rid of the common enemy there. If they were in service to Gaspard, that move makes far more sense then it would otherwise.

 

It's like White and Black Thedas putting aside their gripes to face the Qunari or Darkspawn.

 

Unifying Threats are a common theme in humans in DA.

[LobselVith8]

You left out the bit about them invading their Human Neighbors and picking a fight. It wasn't just their rejection of the Chantry, that wasn't even a major part of the series of events if we look at all the lore presented.

It wasn't just that they annoyed a few missionaries, You know murdering an entire settlement, marching on the capital, that little declaration of war was what triggered the series of events that led to the destruction of the Dales even more so then the Chantry put out. Considering Orlais made no move to actually do much when the Chantry started griping.

I left out the part about the Dalish (and the elven Warden) saying that their sovereign kingdom was invaded because they refused to convert. I don't see what the Chantry version has to do with what the Dalish think about the Andrastian faith, either.

Regardless of your personal preference for the Chantry version, it doesn't change that the Dalish have their own historical account, which may shape their opinions about elves who follow a religion they would blame for the invasion and conquest of their independent kingdom.

[Master Warder Z_]

I left out the part about the Dalish (and the elven Warden) saying that their sovereign kingdom was invaded because they refused to convert. I don't see what the Chantry version has to do with what the Dalish think about the Andrastian faith, either.

Regardless of your personal preference for the Chantry version, it doesn't change that the Dalish have their own historical account, which may shape their opinions about elves who follow a religion they would blame for the invasion and conquest of their independent kingdom.

 

That elven PC perspective was basically confirmed wrong by WOT but you still consider it?

 

And their history is wrong.

 

Again WOT and the majority of the lore support that notion.

[TK514]

To paraphrase Merrill (in her dialogue with Sebastian), I don't think the Dalish will force humans to want to be elves.

They want to teach elves who have a desire to learn. The Dalish teach the willing, they don't force their religion on anyone, and I don't see a homeland changing that; the Elvhen don't even stop members of the clan if they want to leave.
Perhaps they might keep out Andrastian elves from a Dalish homeland, out of concern over the elves of the Chantry trying to force everyone to convert (given their historical account about the fall of the Dales, and what ensued when the elves refused to submit to the human religion).

I honestly don't see the Dalish wanting to convert humans. At all. Their religion is for elves, not humans. Even Merrill scoffs at Sebastian's suggestion that their two religions are identical because of how different they are.

So you would say that the elves are intolerant of those they don't agree with, to compliment their well documented racism.

[LobselVith8]

Their actions of blocking the Road to the Capital and forcing the Empress to flee belay that notion to me.

Given that the Masked Empire hasn't come our yet, I don't see how you can discard the possibility that the elven struggle might have them as more than pawns and footsoldiers to a human faction.

If that was their intent that would be the worst possible move if they didn't want their two little Orlaisians there to put aside their differences and you know, get rid of the common enemy there. If they were in service to Gaspard, that move makes far more sense then it would otherwise.

It's like White and Black Thedas putting aside their gripes to face the Qunari or Darkspawn.

Unifying Threats are a common theme in humans in DA.

You mean, the way Loghain and Tegan put aside their differences to stop the Blight and fight the darkspawn? Oh, wait...

[Master Warder Z_]

Given that the Masked Empire hasn't come our yet, I don't see how you can discard the possibility that the elven struggle might have them as more than pawns and footsoldiers to a human faction.


You mean, the way Loghain and Tegan put aside their differences to stop the Blight and fight the darkspawn? Oh, wait...

 

And it's quite simple i have this notion that occasionally elves will sense are born, and pleasing the people who can improve their lives is a decision that requires said sense.

 

No i mean the way the black and white divine put aside their differences for three separate exalted marches and a blight.

 

Or did you forget about that?

 

There are people who dislike each other a whole lot more then Loghain and Tegan...Tegan wasn't overly important in the political picture anyway, his voice only mattered due to whom his brother was.

[LobselVith8]

That elven PC perspective was basically confirmed wrong by WOT but you still consider it?

And their history is wrong.

Again WOT and the majority of the lore support that notion.

Here's an idea: instead of claiming that WoT says that the elven perspective is wrong, provide some proof from WoT.

Previously, I've provided the historical entry of the fall of the Dales in my own elven thread (from page 28), and nowhere did the entry read that the Dalish account is wrong. It's an entry of brevity.

As I said before, we don't know the truth. Regardless, that means nothing for how the Dalish might view it.

[Sir JK]

Ariane's dialogue suggests the Circles also played a role on the fall of the Dales, and the theft of some elven artifacts and lore.

 

Indeed. From what I understand, Drakon allied with the mages before he allied with the Templars as well. I'm getting a nagging suspicion that his interest in the creation of the Circles was so that Orlais could use mages for war. Something that stands true even as late as 8:98 as we see a mage leading Chevalier legions in Ferelden in Stolen Throne.

 

The circles absolutely played part in the destruction of the Dales. Not surprising really, most were probably both Orlesian and Andrastian at the time.

 

I have seen absolutely nothing that suggests the elves are allied with either Gaspard or Celene. Only that they're rebelling at the same time an Orlesian civil war is going on. 

 

Indeed. In fact, there's not even any confirmation there's an elven rebellion at all.

 

I'm well aware of Drakon's desire to convert everyone to his Cult of the Maker turned nationalized religion; it colored the actions he took. I'll credit the dwarves with valor and effectiveness in fighting the darkspawn, since they have handled the struggle virtually on their own, while both humans and elves (as a whole) ignored their war against the true fulcrum of evil.

As for the Dalish, they don't seem to push their faith on outsiders. The elves who adopt the faith of the Creators do so willingly, and the Dalish even allow those who want to go their own way to leave.


You and I clearly don't see eye to eye about Burkel. To me, Burkel's actions resemble Drakon's: helping others with the intent on converting them. We also see what ensues once the Chantry of Andraste is no longer the minority, and the monstrosities that unfold when they have power, and that horrifies me.

In the long run, I think things could be even worse, especially if conversion leads to the humans of the Chantry ruling over the dwarves. Also, Burkel's disdain for non-Andrastians was sufficient enough reason for my Warden to call him out on looking down on non-Andrastians, which ended the conversation. Personally, I found his attitude towards those who didn't follow his faith to be repugnant.

Last but not least, I have a "weird issue" with forcing your religion on people, especially those who have no interest in forsaking their own religion for yours.

 

This boggles me Lobsel. The Dalish are allowed to teach elves coming to them their religion but Burkel is not allowed to preach in Orzammar? I don't think he's a perfect being... but this strikes me as you're being awfully selective in what messages may be spread. He's not forcibly spreading it or standing out in the open, he's actually very considerate towards dwarven sensibilities... he even seeks approval though proper channels. He's not exactly defiling Paragon statues or invading people's homes...

 

He's just telling people what he believes... and as it turns out... some people in Orzammar likes the message. At which point the authorities kill them. It's not Burkel forcing religion on anyone... it's the Shaperate that is.

 

They want to teach elves who have a desire to learn. The Dalish teach the willing, they don't force their religion on anyone, and I don't see a homeland changing that; the Elvhen don't even stop members of the clan if they want to leave.

Perhaps they might keep out Andrastian elves from a Dalish homeland, out of concern over the elves of the Chantry trying to force everyone to convert (given their historical account about the fall of the Dales, and what ensued when the elves refused to submit to the human religion).

 

You do realise that if they set up conversion as a requirement for introduction then they are forcing their religion on people. In order to be as tolerant as you want them to be they must be willing to tolerate Andrastians... into their own clans even. Or else they absolutely force their religion on people... through isolation (which by the way is exactly how christians did it in the beginning... by shutting out everything non-christian).

 

Moreover the Dalish culture is set up as human culture and religion being the great enemy. That might not cause much problems right now... but put them in a position of power and sooner or later it will. Ideas don't stop at borders.

[LobselVith8]

I'm pretty sure Teagan would have been open to that. That's all on Loghain. You don't have to resolve anything with Teagan. You only have to convince Loghain that Wardens aren't an Orlesian invasion. Or you kill him.

There was a civil war precisely because Tegan didn't capitulate to Loghain. It's only when Alistair and The Warden arrive in the village of Redcliffe that he has more facts to back up his gut about the Teyrn.

Tegan is willing to prolong the civil war with Loghain for the possibility of a legendary urn that may revive his brother, Eamon, who he thinks stands a chance in stopping Loghain. The point remains, a civil war raged on as darkspawn ravaged Ferelden.

[Master Warder Z_]

Here's an idea: instead of claiming that WoT says that the elven perspective is wrong, provide some proof from WoT.

Previously, I've provided the historical entry of the fall of the Dales in my own elven thread (from page 28), and nowhere did the entry read that the Dalish account is wrong. It's an entry of brevity.

As I said before, we don't know the truth. Regardless, that means nothing for how the Dalish might view it.

 

You get plus five approval for the usage of the word Brevity but i'd argue considering your going off the perspective of the situation being unclear to the degree that the Dalish somehow have justification for what stands as now a basically unprovoked slaughtering of a local Human community, The onus of proving the situation as otherwise would fall to you.

 

And true enough, North Korea is proof enough of how warping propaganda can be to those who actually buy into it.

 

The Dalish might also believe in Unicorns, surely dear leader wasn't lying when he saw one.

[CrybabyXD]

as long as it well written dialouge i could care less. Tho i enjoyed City more than dalish in origins.

[Master Warder Z_]

There was a civil war precisely because Tegan didn't capitulate to Loghain. 

 

No actually Tegan didn't have much to do with the actual civil war besides voicing supisions.

 

It was members of the Bannorn seeking to take advantage of the chaos and power vacuum that began the civil war, along with those who didn't believe Loghain's story of Ostagar and the loss of the King and army there.

 

But Tegan wasn't very instrumental in the conflict, he left from the capital right before it began after all.

[LobselVith8]

And it's quite simple i have this notion that occasionally elves will sense are born, and pleasing the people who can improve their lives is a decision that requires said sense.

No i mean the way the black and white divine put aside their differences for three separate exalted marches and a blight.

Or did you forget about that?

There are people who dislike each other a whole lot more then Loghain and Tegan...Tegan wasn't overly important in the political picture anyway, his voice only mattered due to whom his brother was.

Celene and Gaspard are fighting for the throne. A civil war over political power and the loss of a barely populated territory to the south isn't the same as a continental threat like the Qunari.

[Master Warder Z_]

Celene and Gaspard are fighting for the throne. A civil war over political power and the loss of a barely populated territory to the south isn't the same as a continental threat like the Qunari.

 

You think a rogue Nation popping up in their own backyard would be something either ruler would tolerate?

 

I have a feeling they would join hands just ever so long enough to be rid of it and then go back to killing each other.

[LobselVith8]

No actually Tegan didn't have much to do with the actual civil war besides voicing supisions.

It was members of the Bannorn seeking to take advantage of the chaos and power vacuum that began the civil war, along with those who didn't believe Loghain's story of Ostagar and the loss of the King and army there.

But Tegan wasn't very instrumental in the conflict, he left from the capital right before it began after all.

One side fights under Loghain's banner, the other under the Arl of Redcliffe. If that wasn't the case, The Warden would have had to reach out to a myriad of fractured groups to end the civil war.

The fact that Eamon says the civil war will end if he concedes to Loghain makes it crystal clear there are two warring factions at play.

[TK514]

There was a civil war precisely because Tegan didn't capitulate to Loghain. It's only when Alistair and The Warden arrive in the village of Redcliffe that he has more facts to back up his gut about the Teyrn.
Tegan is willing to prolong the civil war with Loghain for the possibility of a legendary urn that may revive his brother, Eamon, who he thinks stands a chance in stopping Loghain. The point remains, a civil war raged on as darkspawn ravaged Ferelden.

Except there wasn't a Civil War in Ferelden. Things might have been moving in that direction, but the situation was resolved before it happened.

No Ferelden armies met on the field of battle. When Eamon and his allied Arls and Banns showed up for the Landsmeet, they were not thrown in prison as traitors to the crown, and basically the entire Landsmeet could be convinced to follow a single course of action after some diplomacy. And the three main reasons for that were

Eamon had a strong claimant to the throne
Loghain did some fairly shady and unpopular things
And, oh, right, the Darkspawn.

No Civil War actually began. At worst there was a temporary internal power struggle that was brought to a definitive conclusion.

[LobselVith8]

Maybe if the Dalish actually explored some of their ruins like my Warden did, they'll find that humans and elves got along/coexisted once. And adjust their lore. What if a Keeper saw the same vision in the Arcane Warrior quest (where it showed ancient elves and humans fighting something off) or they had the same curiosity as Tamlen in those ruins? Instead the Hahren just sits around and tells old stories. And lets not even talk about Zathrian. Not helpful at all.

There's supposed to be a semi-permanent Dalish settlement outside the kingdom of Rivain, and Zevran mentions there are Dalish in Antiva City.

My point was about why some Dalish might be wary of Andrastian elves. However, the clans are all distinct and different from one another.

[Master Warder Z_]

One side fights under Loghain's banner, the other under the Arl of Redcliffe. If that wasn't the case, The Warden would have had to reach out to a myriad of fractured groups to end the civil war.

The fact that Eamon says the civil war will end if he concedes to Loghain makes it crystal clear there are two warring factions at play.

 

Da heck?

 

I didn't deny the existence of the Civil war.

 

I said Tegan had VERY LITTLE if ANYTHING to do with it, it starting and being a part of it.

 

Pay attention.

 

Dang...

[Master Warder Z_]

Nobody is fighting under Redcliffe's banner. Listen to the rumors at the bars/Bodahn. It's the bannorn and such.

 

Redcliffe never raised an army to combat Loghain in the capital.

[LobselVith8]

Except there wasn't a Civil War in Ferelden. Things might have been moving in that direction, but the situation was resolved before it happened.

No Ferelden armies met on the field of battle. When Eamon and his allied Arls and Banns showed up for the Landsmeet, they were not thrown in prison as traitors to the crown, and basically the entire Landsmeet could be convinced to follow a single course of action after some diplomacy. And the three main reasons for that were

Eamon had a strong claimant to the throne
Loghain did some fairly shady and unpopular things
And, oh, right, the Darkspawn.

No Civil War actually began. At worst there was a temporary internal power struggle that was brought to a definitive conclusion.

It's referred to as a civil war numerous times in the narrative, and it's addressed as the reason why no other nation is coming to the aid of Ferelden; there's even a quest titled "civil war", where you aid one of Eamon's allies against Loghain's forces.

[LobselVith8]

Nobody is fighting under Redcliffe's banner. Listen to the rumors at the bars/Bodahn. It's the bannorn and such.

Actually, I'm listening to the characters, not the rumors. Eamon says he will concede to Loghain in order to stop the civil war, unless Alistair will come forward with a stronger claim to the throne.