1079 réponses à ce sujet

[TK514]

They should build a new religion around my Paragon Commoner.

Nug for Paragon. He could squeal a lot, refuse to accept nugs that were different, and try to wage a losing war to reclaim the land lost during the Battle of Squealing Plains.

Hmm.

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't think it said it was "illegal" per say, just that Orzammar "severely restricted" the rights of Andrastians. Brother Burkle was killed when leading a peaceful protest. Supposedly by accident, but the Chantry presumably didn't buy it.

 

It was illegal before the Warden convinced the Shaper to allow it, and those restrictive measures were only put in place once the Religion actually attracted a large following.

 

And the codex mentioned as much, I really wouldn't blame any Divine for not buying that.

[LobselVith8]

Indeed. From what I understand, Drakon allied with the mages before he allied with the Templars as well. I'm getting a nagging suspicion that his interest in the creation of the Circles was so that Orlais could use mages for war. Something that stands true even as late as 8:98 as we see a mage leading Chevalier legions in Ferelden in Stolen Throne.

The circles absolutely played part in the destruction of the Dales. Not surprising really, most were probably both Orlesian and Andrastian at the time.

That's a good point.

This boggles me Lobsel. The Dalish are allowed to teach elves coming to them their religion but Burkel is not allowed to preach in Orzammar? I don't think he's a perfect being... but this strikes me as you're being awfully selective in what messages may be spread. He's not forcibly spreading it or standing out in the open, he's actually very considerate towards dwarven sensibilities... he even seeks approval though proper channels. He's not exactly defiling Paragon statues or invading people's homes...

Technically, Burkel stopped talking to my Surana Warden because of his views about the Andrastian faith, but frankly, helping the Chantry get a foothold in Orzammar is horrifying for someone who was forced into servitude to the Chantry.

Also, he was atheist, not a follower of the Creators.

He's just telling people what he believes... and as it turns out... some people in Orzammar likes the message. At which point the authorities kill them. It's not Burkel forcing religion on anyone... it's the Shaperate that is.

I was addressing the Chantry of Andraste, an organization that most certainly forces their religion on people. Giving them any degree of political or military power in Orzammar seems like a frightening bad idea.

You do realise that if they set up conversion as a requirement for introduction then they are forcing their religion on people. In order to be as tolerant as you want them to be they must be willing to tolerate Andrastians... into their own clans even. Or else they absolutely force their religion on people... through isolation (which by the way is exactly how christians did it in the beginning... by shutting out everything non-christian).

I don't see joining the Dalish voluntarily as forcing religion on people; it's a choice to join a society that pursues keeping true to a culture and faith that's under attack from a dominant religious organization and it's respective followers.

Moreover the Dalish culture is set up as human culture and religion being the great enemy. That might not cause much problems right now... but put them in a position of power and sooner or later it will. Ideas don't stop at borders.

I think that's more an issue of humans trying to assault and kill them over magic and religion, as opposed to their faith or culture. We have enough examples to know that the Dalish don't automatically hate humans.

[LobselVith8]

I'm not sure what's actually illegal or not in Orzammar. If someone doesn't like someone, they could put an axe into your chest in public. It seems to be run by mafia bosses, for the most part. Be it the nobles or the dusters.

I wonder if Kal-Sharok will be vastly different in comparison, given some of the differences noted in WoT...

[Sir JK]

Technically, Burkel stopped talking to my Surana Warden because of his views about the Andrastian faith, but frankly, helping the Chantry get a foothold in Orzammar is horrifying for someone who was forced into servitude to the Chantry.

 

]I was addressing the Chantry of Andraste, an organization that most certainly forces their religion on people. Giving them any degree of political or military power in Orzammar seems like a frightening bad idea.

 

]I think that's more an issue of humans trying to assault and kill them over magic and religion, as opposed to their faith or culture. We have enough examples to know that the Dalish don't automatically hate humans.

 

Regarding Burkel: Mind that Burkel is acting on his own. He's not trying to bring in Templars or infiltrate power structure. He's trying to start a prayer meeting. Nothing more. He's a grassroots member of the Chantry, not an agent of the Divine. I don't think the chantry should have power or military in Orzammar, but Burkel ios not advocating that. I understand your warden not wanting to help him, but he's hardly a horrible, intolerant person trying to force his religion on anyone.

 

Regarding Dalish:

I'm not trying to say that the Dalish are evil, rest assured. Moreover, their approach is very understandable.

 

But there's a lot of exclusivity to their culture. Velanna and Merrill were both cast out because they didn't conform. As was Zevran's mother and I doubt Arianni was a single mother in an alienage by choice. The horrific way they can treat a city elf warden speaks for itself (andrastian nobles are treated better).

 

But as you say... they also give proof of being the complete opposite. So I don't think they're evil or villainous.

 

But I do think they, often enough, force their religion and culture on others. Not always. But not never either. They're not perfect, nor are they monsters. Flawed like the rest of us.

And of course, not monolithical. There'll always be outliers going towards both extremes. There'll be Dalish who would tolerate andrastians in their clans, much like there'll be Dalish that go out of their ways to destroy everything non-dalish. Neither will be representative of their people.

[Master Warder Z_]

That's true: they both refusal to bend knee to the Chantry.

 

For the moment.

 

The Dwarves are understandable, valuable trade partners and the majority source of Lyrium.

 

The Dalish? They don't have economics to hide behind when the Chantry comes knocking for its due.

[The Qun & the Damned]

Well now that the whole "all PC elves are Dalish in Inquisition" thing is out of the way, what clan do they hail from? Ralaferin, Alerion, an unnamed or unheard of clan from elsewhere, or will they be of the Sabrae clan, same as our Dalish wardens, you know, the ones who stayed in Ferelden to settle their new territory (spoiler, the rest of the Sabrae clan can die in 2 if things go to hell). Also, did they ever give out the names for Zathrian, Ilshae, and Yevven's clan?

[LobselVith8]

Well now that the whole "all PC elves are Dalish in Inquisition" thing is out of the way, what clan do they hail from? Ralaferin, Alerion, an unnamed or unheard of clan from elsewhere, or will they be of the Sabrae clan, same as our Dalish wardens, you know, the ones who stayed in Ferelden to settle their new territory (spoiler, the rest of the Sabrae clan can die in 2 if things go to hell).

I suspect it will be a new clan, but nothing official has been stated yet. I wonder where the clan might be from.

Also, did they ever give out the names for Zathrian, Ilshae, and Yevven's clan?

I don't believe their clans are named.

[Andraste_Reborn]

I don't believe their clans are named.

 

They are - the clan Mahariel, Tamlen, Marethari, Merrill and all the rest belong to is the Sabrae according to the codex, and the clan Merrill was born into are the Alerion. I don't think we ever get the name of Zathrian's clan.

 

Given that they're said to roam the hills of Nevarra, I'm wondering if the Dalish Inquisitor will be a member of the Alerion. We could meet Merrill's parents!

[BigEvil]

I suspect it will be a new clan, but nothing official has been stated yet. I wonder where the clan might be from.

 

I'm hoping the clan will be one that's spent a fair bit of time wandering around Orlais. Given the whole Orlais/Dales history, I think it would be interesting to see if the hatred between the Dalish clan and the humans is stronger than previous clans (which I'd say have been more portrayed as mistrustful mostly).

 

It's a shame there won't be a city elf Inquisitor but it can't be helped. I was planning on having a playthrough as a Dalish mage and one as a city elf warrior or rogue, now I think I'll modify that plan to a mage who is out to do anything to help the Dalish cause and a warrior/rogue who is more disillusioned with that mindset (if it's possible to RP that, maybe just not taking options that help the Dalish much) to make them a bit different.

[Xilizhra]

What exactly does Burkel say about non-Andrastians, and did it apply to all of them, or just dwarves who are still into the caste system?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I hope we get a new clan. It would be nice to get a bit of a fresh start to get away from the awkward retcon from Dragon Age 2. I'd have a much easier time connecting with a Welsh (or Irish or Scottish or whatever) clan of characters if I didn't keep imagining them clashing with my original memories of them in the first game.

[Kimarous]

Why do people keep bringing up Burkel? What does he have to do with the Dalish?

[Dean_the_Young]

Something about the sinister infiltration of the Chantry to inflict and enforce Andrastian beliefs on peoples against their will, and how expecting the Dalish to tolerate their own Burkel's is tantamount to the Chantry suppressing other religions by evil force.

[Xilizhra]

Something about the sinister infiltration of the Chantry to inflict and enforce Andrastian beliefs on peoples against their will, and how expecting the Dalish to tolerate their own Burkel's is tantamount to the Chantry suppressing other religions by evil force.

The Chantry is expansionist in a way that neither the Dalish or dwarven religions are; that's a simple fact. The Chantry has a right to send them, but other nations also have a right to kick them out, which should be the end of it... but it basically never is.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Chantry is expansionist in a way that neither the Dalish or dwarven religions are; that's a simple fact. The Chantry has a right to send them, but other nations also have a right to kick them out, which should be the end of it... but it basically never is.

 

If by 'expansionist' you mean 'it's conflicts are frequently secular and reactive in nature,' sure. Doesn't really change the nature of the (lack of) religious tolerance expressed by the Dalish or Dwarves, which is what tends to make arguments of religious freedom for them fall a bit short.
 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

They are - the clan Mahariel, Tamlen, Marethari, Merrill and all the rest belong to is the Sabrae according to the codex, and the clan Merrill was born into are the Alerion. I don't think we ever get the name of Zathrian's clan.

 

Given that they're said to roam the hills of Nevarra, I'm wondering if the Dalish Inquisitor will be a member of the Alerion. We could meet Merrill's parents!

That would be interesting. Perhaps that is where Merrill runs off to if she survives the events of the game and not in a romance with Hawke. 

[Xilizhra]

If by 'expansionist' you mean 'it's conflicts are frequently secular and reactive in nature,' sure. Doesn't really change the nature of the (lack of) religious tolerance expressed by the Dalish or Dwarves, which is what tends to make arguments of religious freedom for them fall a bit short.
 

I'll give you dwarves, as their entire culture is a broken mess. Dalish, to my knowledge, however, have never started religious conflicts or specifically persecuted anyone of differing religions, for the reason of religion.

[LobselVith8]

That would be interesting. Perhaps that is where Merrill runs off to if she survives the events of the game and not in a romance with Hawke.

That would be interesting. The dangerous Dalish of Antiva City might also make for a unique experience; you'd have to be tough to survive in a society with the Antivan Crows and other cutthroats.

Maybe she does, or she might go with her friend Isabela. I wonder if Merrill would be a renown figure among the Dalish if she opposes Meredith's rule, given the hostilities between the Dalish and the templars over the centuries; similar to the apostate Champion being a hero to the mages of the Circles of Magi.

[Xilizhra]

The dangerous Dalish of Antiva City

Wait, what? Do you just mean dangerous elves?

[LobselVith8]

Wait, what? Do you just mean dangerous elves?

No, Dalish. Zevran mentions them. According to what he's heard about them, the Dalish there are apparently more violent than their Ferelden counterparts, which isn't surprising given how they reside in Antiva. A land of assassins and political coups isn't an environment to cultivate pacifism.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'll give you dwarves, as their entire culture is a broken mess. Dalish, to my knowledge, however, have never started religious conflicts or specifically persecuted anyone of differing religions, for the reason of religion.

 

Was the fall of the Dales a religious war? The Dalish certainly were persecuting Andrastians and their efforts beforehand- neither side disagrees on that.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That would be interesting. The dangerous Dalish of Antiva City might also make for a unique experience; you'd have to be tough to survive in a society with the Antivan Crows and other cutthroats.

Maybe she does, or she might go with her friend Isabela. I wonder if Merrill would be a renown figure among the Dalish if she opposes Meredith's rule, given the hostilities between the Dalish and the templars over the centuries; similar to the apostate Champion being a hero to the mages of the Circles of Magi.

That would be interesting too, but as far as I can recall Antiva is not on the Inquisition map so they are less likely to happen.

 

Doesn't Varric say they all went their sepatrate ways? Plus even though it is Bioware's canon so ours may differ, Merrill wasn't with Isabela in the comics. As for the renown, that is a good point.

[Xilizhra]

No, Dalish. Zevran mentions them. According to what he's heard about them, the Dalish there are apparently more violent than their Ferelden counterparts, which isn't surprising given how they reside in Antiva. A land of assassins and political coups isn't an environment to cultivate pacifism.

It was the "Antiva City" part that confused me.

 

 

Was the fall of the Dales a religious war? The Dalish certainly were persecuting Andrastians and their efforts beforehand- neither side disagrees on that.

Were they persecuting their own people who converted, assuming any did? I don't agree that there's sufficient evidence to say that the destruction of Andrastianism as a belief system was a motivator for the war.