Was the fall of the Dales a religious war? The Dalish certainly were persecuting Andrastians and their efforts beforehand- neither side disagrees on that.
Was the fall of the Dales a religious war? The Dalish certainly were persecuting Andrastians and their efforts beforehand- neither side disagrees on that.
It had an Exalted March, so I think that classifies it as a 'Holy War' at least to one side.
Were they persecuting their own people who converted, assuming any did? I don't agree that there's sufficient evidence to say that the destruction of Andrastianism as a belief system was a motivator for the war.
They likely 'persecuted' as much as we've seen the Andrastians persecute anyone: social stimitization. We do know, and the Dalish and Chantry are in agreement here, that they were actively attempting to prevent the spread of the religion. We know from the Chantry's perspective that this extreme isolationism was a tension.
The motivator for the war, as far as anyone can point to pinpoint one, was the Dalish sacking of a settlement. The Dalish can't even get that specific, but then they make very few verifiable claims about the conflict but don't deny it either.
That would be interesting too, but as far as I can recall Antiva is not on the Inquisition map so they are less likely to happen.
Doesn't Varric say they all went their sepatrate ways? Plus even though it is Bioware's canon so ours may differ, Merrill wasn't with Isabela in the comics. As for the renown, that is a good point.
If the clan is attending a meeting with other groups (if the survey is even remotely accurate about the prologue to Inquisition), they could be from anywhere.
Varric does say that. Anything is possible, though.
I forgot about the clans meeting.
And yeah, I won't denounce her going with Isabela, but I think more she went back to her people, especially if she sees how the world is shaping itself. She may feel a need to help her people in these times type thing.
They likely 'persecuted' as much as we've seen the Andrastians persecute anyone: social stimitization. We do know, and the Dalish and Chantry are in agreement here, that they were actively attempting to prevent the spread of the religion. We know from the Chantry's perspective that this extreme isolationism was a tension.
The motivator for the war, as far as anyone can point to pinpoint one, was the Dalish sacking of a settlement. The Dalish can't even get that specific, but then they make very few verifiable claims about the conflict but don't deny it either.
Well, wearing an Imperial Chantry amulet is apparently a capital offense, so I have a feeling that Andrastian religious persecution is just a bit more charged than anything the Dalish might do. They also massacred the viddathari population of Kont-Aar.
As for everything else, it's safe to say that we don't know enough in general.
It had an Exalted March, so I think that classifies it as a 'Holy War' at least to one side.
Why? Religion is more often a reflection of politics rather than a dictator of it: opiate of the masses and all that. Considering the war had been going on for the better part of a decade before the Exalted March was organized, and even then when the Dalish were marching on the Orlesian capital, the first Exalted March has a context closer to 'Gondor calls for aid' than 'let's launch a crusade against heathens!'
Religion, like ideologies or cultural narratives, frequently just serves as a cover for underlying strategic or hard-power considerations that would drive the conflict without the trappings of belief.
Well, wearing an Imperial Chantry amulet is apparently a capital offense, so I have a feeling that Andrastian religious persecution is just a bit more charged than anything the Dalish might do.
Now here's the better question for you: at what point is the Black/White Chantry split a religious conflict rather than a political conflict?
After all, it's probably not coincidence that the Chantry schism coincided with the breakdown of the Circle system in Tevinter and the gradual resumption of the mageocracy.
As for everything else, it's safe to say that we don't know enough in general.
Oh, in general we know more than enough: the modern Dalish Elves are a xenophobic lot, and have given precious little evidence for any desire or expression of religious tolerance.
Whether that applies backwards, however, is a different question.
Now here's the better question for you: at what point is the Black/White Chantry split a religious conflict rather than a political conflict?
After all, it's probably not coincidence that the Chantry schism coincided with the breakdown of the Circle system in Tevinter and the gradual resumption of the mageocracy.
Note the edit. It also wasn't a breakdown of the Circle system, just a loosening of its restrictions; the Circle hasn't fallen or anything. As for your question... the resumption of the magocracy is itself a heavily religious matter in Andrastian terms.
Note the edit. It also wasn't a breakdown of the Circle system, just a loosening of its restrictions; the Circle hasn't fallen or anything. As for your question... the resumption of the magocracy is itself a heavily religious matter in Andrastian terms.
Note the edit. It also wasn't a breakdown of the Circle system, just a loosening of its restrictions; the Circle hasn't fallen or anything.
It has, however, failed in its priorities of curbing the abuses of mages and preventing a mageocracy from dominating and preying on mundanes.
You're normally not this silly, Xil, to confuse the continued existence of an institution with the preservation of its role in society.
As for your question... the resumption of the magocracy is itself a heavily religious matter in Andrastian terms.
It is also a pragmatically political one. The rollback of the White Chantry and Circles was also the reassertion of Tevinter power (in rivalry with Orlais) and resuming practices the Andrastian culture opposes on levels past simply religious: mageocracy, slavery, blood magic.
You're normally not this silly, Xil, to confuse the continued existence of an institution with the preservation of its role in society.
I agree it's a semantic issue, but something of an important one. The Circle in Tevinter predates the Chantry; it had additional restrictions clamped on it by the Chantry, but it threw those off. That doesn't mean that the Circle fell.
It is also a pragmatically political one. The rollback of the White Chantry and Circles was also the reassertion of Tevinter power (in rivalry with Orlais) and resuming practices the Andrastian culture opposes on levels past simply religious: mageocracy, slavery, blood magic.
When religions are politically powerful enough to do their own persecutions, then all of their actions will by nature be political as well. And the magocracy and blood magic issues are rooted firmly in religious doctrine (mage freedom and demonology are different issues, but Tevinter doesn't really have the former and doesn't use the latter to excess enough to seriously damage it, to our knowledge).
It was the "Antiva City" part that confused me.
Were they persecuting their own people who converted, assuming any did? I don't agree that there's sufficient evidence to say that the destruction of Andrastianism as a belief system was a motivator for the war.
Well they don't consider City Elves "real" elves at least.
I agree it's a semantic issue, but something of an important one. The Circle in Tevinter predates the Chantry; it had additional restrictions clamped on it by the Chantry, but it threw those off. That doesn't mean that the Circle fell.
But we weren't talking about the Circle: we were talking about the Circle system. If you want to play semantics, at least have the courtesy to nitpick what is actually said, rather than what you headcanon is being said.
When religions are politically powerful enough to do their own persecutions, then all of their actions will by nature be political as well. And the magocracy and blood magic issues are rooted firmly in religious doctrine (mage freedom and demonology are different issues, but Tevinter doesn't really have the former and doesn't use the latter to excess enough to seriously damage it, to our knowledge).
The mageocracy and blood magic issues are rooted firmly in a history of extreme cruelty and abuses. The religion grew in reflection of that, not created that: you're effectively claiming the religion is the origin of the culture, rather than address the chronological order.
Well they don't consider City Elves "real" elves at least.
But we weren't talking about the Circle: we were talking about the Circle system. If you want to play semantics, at least have the courtesy to nitpick what is actually said, rather than what you headcanon is being said.
The mageocracy and blood magic issues are rooted firmly in a history of extreme cruelty and abuses. The religion grew in reflection of that, not created that: you're effectively claiming the religion is the origin of the culture, rather than address the chronological order.
Given that magocracy of a sort is quite common among several cultures that would logically have no love for Tevinter, such as the Dalish, the Chasind, the Avvars (judging by those tidbits and ghosts we encounter in Mark of the Assassin) and Rivain (tellingly, Rivain, where the Chant never really spread very far, has plenty of places where mages are still community leaders), I dispute this claim.
There are plenty of Dalish who don't have that mindset.
And there are plenty of Andrastians who don't hate Elves or Mages.
And there are plenty of Andrastians who don't hate Elves or Mages.
How many Dalish have we had the oppertunity to converse with about how they view humans? Not a lot to my knowledge. Generally though the Dalish seem to share a dislike for all humans.
The Circle system is more than the rule about mages not holding political power.
Sure- it's also about keeping mages isolated from mundane society and curbing the abuses of magic against mundanes. The Tevinter Circle system fails in those regards as well.
Given that magocracy of a sort is quite common among several cultures that would logically have no love for Tevinter, such as the Dalish, the Chasind, the Avvars (judging by those tidbits and ghosts we encounter in Mark of the Assassin) and Rivain (tellingly, Rivain, where the Chant never really spread very far, has plenty of places where mages are still community leaders), I dispute this claim.
Wait, you believe that the Dalish, Chasind, Avaars, and Rivain don't have issues with abusive mageocracy and blood magic?
Sure- it's also about keeping mages isolated from mundane society and curbing the abuses of magic against mundanes. The Tevinter Circle system fails in those regards as well.
In addition to its systems of education, ranking, study, enchantment, and many other things.
Wait, you believe that the Dalish, Chasind, Avaars, and Rivain don't have issues with abusive mageocracy and blood magic?
Abusive magocracy? Sure. But they have no problem with mages being community leaders, whereas Andrastians decidedly do. As for blood magic, it's not spoken of much; all we know is that the Dalish disapprove of it but won't kill its practitioners out of hand, unlike the mandate for Andrastians.
In addition to its systems of education, ranking, study, enchantment, and many other things.
Those aren't the societal role of the Circle system, Xil.
Abusive magocracy? Sure. But they have no problem with mages being community leaders, whereas Andrastians decidedly do. As for blood magic, it's not spoken of much; all we know is that the Dalish disapprove of it but won't kill its practitioners out of hand, unlike the mandate for Andrastians.
Where do you support the claim that they have no problem with mages being community leaders, Xil?
How many Dalish have we had the oppertunity to converse with about how they view humans? Not a lot to my knowledge. Generally though the Dalish seem to share a dislike for all humans.
If anything I would say we have conversed with enough Dalish to say that most of them actually do dislike humans, and the few that don't are uncommon.
Those aren't the societal role of the Circle system, Xil.
Odd, I thought mages were supposed to be a society unto themselves. In any case, those are a far larger societal role in Tevinter.
Where do you support the claim that they have no problem with mages being community leaders, Xil?
Um, the fact that every society that I mentioned has numerous mages as sanctioned leaders?
Retour en haut