If anything I would say we have conversed with enough Dalish to say that most of them actually do dislike humans, and the few that don't are uncommon.
It isn't to protect humanity. It is to help the WORLD. Don't kid yourself thinking that the Dalish are doing it for the humans' sake.
It isn't to protect humanity. It is to help the WORLD. Don't kid yourself thinking that the Dalish are doing it for the humans' sake.
I agree with this. Helping the human kingdoms in the Blights was much more an act of self-preservation than goodwill.
It isn't to protect humanity. It is to help the WORLD. Don't kid yourself thinking that the Dalish are doing it for the humans' sake.
I think all the Dalish are different. Honestly, they signed a treaty to aid humanity during the Blight, and honored that treaty when humanity needed them. I don't think the Dalish are as black and white as you think they are.
I'm well aware of Drakon's desire to convert everyone to his Cult of the Maker turned nationalized religion; it colored the actions he took. I'll credit the dwarves with valor and effectiveness in fighting the darkspawn, since they have handled the struggle virtually on their own, while both humans and elves (as a whole) ignored their war against the true fulcrum of evil.
As for the Dalish, they don't seem to push their faith on outsiders. The elves who adopt the faith of the Creators do so willingly, and the Dalish even allow those who want to go their own way to leave.
You and I clearly don't see eye to eye about Burkel. To me, Burkel's actions resemble Drakon's: helping others with the intent on converting them. We also see what ensues once the Chantry of Andraste is no longer the minority, and the monstrosities that unfold when they have power, and that horrifies me.
In the long run, I think things could be even worse, especially if conversion leads to the humans of the Chantry ruling over the dwarves. Also, Burkel's disdain for non-Andrastians was sufficient enough reason for my Warden to call him out on looking down on non-Andrastians, which ended the conversation. Personally, I found his attitude towards those who didn't follow his faith to be repugnant.
Last but not least, I have a "weird issue" with forcing your religion on people, especially those who have no interest in forsaking their own religion for yours.
And yet that doesn't change what happened; Orlais and Tevinter buddied up against the Darkspawn (and Orlais showed great valor in particular) while the Dales did their best to stay out of it. Even not knowing about broodmothers, the Darkspawn still spread taint and ruin land for decades, if not centuries. Staying neutral against an enemy against all living things earns them nothing.
Are you going with the "well, you can leave!" defense again? Because being indoctrinated (depending on your Keeper/Storyteller) against all other creatures in Thedas, and expecting to be able to live among them (ignorant of their laws and customs) while treating them with disdain is such a better option? I don't even understand your last statement; I don't believe we've seen religious police in Thedas who ensure all follow the White Divine. As you have stated yourself, DA:O allowed the Warden to be an atheist and disbelief all gods. And while this might have gotten some nasty reactions from people, they don't attack you.
If that's the case, you're looking at it under the influence of some delusion. Yes, Burkel wants to convert other dwarves to the Chant of Light; but nothing has shown that he wouldn't be willing to assist someone who wanted to hold to the Stone. He did everything legally (petitioning the Shaperate and all). If you're going to use conjured fears from nothing out of evidence, what is to stop me from saying that someone like Anders was no better than Drakon? Is he not assisting people to make use of them later on for his cause (which, you know, we actually have evidence of)?
Where is any evidence at all of that? And why wouldn't Burkel not like non-Andrastians? The ones he's been around most of his life (other Dwarves) run a horrific caste system that encourages infantcide, with the only means of mobility for the lower rung being prostitution, crime, or death in the Deep Roads? Besides, Surana has no say in that; he isn't a dwarf and only ever scratches the surface of what really goes on in the Deep Roads. Sorry, going from Alienage or Lothering to the Circle would be a godsend for any casteless.
No, you have an issue with people adopting a religion you dislike. Burkel wasn't forcing anyone to convert, he was helping others and his flock were willingly leaving a horrific caste system. And then he was killed for it. But please, show me where Burkel held a knife to every duster he met and told them to convert or die.
Assuming that Aveline is a true story, and not merely legend, it proves little. The common disposistion amongst the Dalish IS to dislike humans, that much has been established throughout the lore.
Technically, they refused to honor the treaty.
What they actually did was extort aid in resolving a crisis their Keeper created and then lied about for hundreds of years.
Technically, they refused to honor the treaty.
What they actually did was extort aid in resolving a crisis their Keeper created and then lied about for hundreds of years.
I don't think it's fair to blame the Dalish. It's like blaming Irving and Greagoir for failing to uphold the treaty with the Wardens because they were busy being murdalized by demons and abominations.
Also, I don't know that you want to hold Tevinter as an example of selflessness during a Blight, since they abandoned the whole of the Andersfels to the darkspawn in the same conflict. But the darkspawn made Minrathous itself a target so they had to fight.
Assuming that Aveline is a true story, and not merely legend, it proves little. The common disposistion amongst the Dalish IS to dislike humans, that much has been established throughout the lore.
That's disingenuous, and you know it. Half of the clan was infected with lycanthropy, and the sick and injured were being tended to. Werewolves were also nearby, attacking Dalish elves who strayed away from the encampment.
Aveline was a historical figure, not a myth. And I don't see anything stating what the "common disposition" is; it's addressed the clans are different and varied. The Dalish vary; from the fringe groups near the border of the Imperium to the dangerous Dalish who reside in Antiva City.
Was she now? You know this how? As far as I know all we got is a single codex entry.
Amusingly enough, the Circle offers to honor the Mages' commitment even if there are no Mages.
Yeah but, not until their current crisis is dealt with.
Yeah but, not until their current crisis is dealt with.
The crisis at the Circle however had the potential to eclipse the Blight, so the delay is warranted.
We've gotten a couple codex entries on the original Aveline. This is what is known and I don't think WoT has anything further:
Aveline was born to an Orlesian farmer near the city of Halamshiral in the early half of the Storm Age. She was a large and ugly baby, and her father had hoped for a boy. Not wanting another mouth to feed, the farmer left Aveline in the woods to die from exposure. But a traveling band of Dalish elves came upon the crying child.
The elves took her into their clan and raised her as their own. They taught her archery, dueling and survival skills. When she came of age, she was larger and stronger than most men, let alone elven women. Her adoptive parents knew that she was a fine warrior, so they encouraged her to enter a human tournament in nearby Montisimmard. But women were not permitted to join the knighthood in Orlais, nor to compete in a tournament, so Aveline joined the tournament as a man. Her clan forged a suit of armor with a full helm and gave her an ironbark sword of the finest quality.
Aveline entered the competition claiming to be a knight of Antiva. She refused to doff her helmet, even during the archery competition. And sure enough, Aveline bested many other knights until, in the grand melee, she came upon Kaleva, a knight who served the emperor and was considered the finest in the land.Kaleva was determined not to be beaten, and struck swiftly and strongly. As Aveline matched each of his blows, Kaleva grew ever more frustrated. Finally, in desperation, he tripped Aveline and threw her to the ground. The blow knocked her helm from her head, and Kaleva was shamed. He called to have the competition declared invalid, but the crowd booed and jeered. In anger, Kaleva turned and slew Aveline as she laid helpless.
The son of the emperor, Prince Freyan, was also present at the tourney. He too had been beaten by Aveline, but he recognized her skill and bravery and was saddened by the injustice of her death. Upon rising to the emperor's seat in 7:44 Storm, Freyan abolished the law that disallowed women from joining the Orlesian knighthood and posthumously knighted Aveline. Although women in the Orlesian knighthood are still a rarity today, all those who do become knights revere Ser Aveline as their patron.
Edit: Blanket statements are bad guys. Like many have said before, not all Dalish are the same. Hopefully we'll get some game choices to reflect that, whether to be xenophobic or accepting of humans.
And it allegedly happened over a century ago, so how much of the story is actual fact, and how much is fiction?
This has totally convinced me to not play as an elf my first play through given how terrible the Dalish warden was handled during Awakening...
So leave the sick and wounded behind to be tended. Half a clan would be better than the flat refusal the Warden was actually given. But then, this is a Blight, and we know just how good the Dalish are at sitting back and watching while others fight and die against the Darkspawn.
It's interesting how the Keeper was more than willing to abandon sick and wounded members of his clan already in the forest. The Keeper who, in fact, knew exactly how to cure his people and yet did not do so prior to the Warden's arrival. This is the same one who kept putting his clan at risk, year after year, so he could gloat over the suffering of others. One wonders how much concern he actually felt. Maybe he just really didn't like his clan.
Amusingly enough, the Circle offers to honor the Mages' commitment even if there are no Mages.
Yeah but, not until their current crisis is dealt with.
And it allegedly happened over a century ago, so how much of the story is actual fact, and how much is fiction?
As proven by Iloren and his people fighting the darkspawn in the Anderfels, or the treaty signed to aid the Wardens during the Blight?
You're condemning the Dalish because of one single man?
That's because the templars offer aid since the Circle is annulled.
And yet that doesn't change what happened; Orlais and Tevinter buddied up against the Darkspawn (and Orlais showed great valor in particular) while the Dales did their best to stay out of it. Even not knowing about broodmothers, the Darkspawn still spread taint and ruin land for decades, if not centuries. Staying neutral against an enemy against all living things earns them nothing.
Are you going with the "well, you can leave!" defense again? Because being indoctrinated (depending on your Keeper/Storyteller) against all other creatures in Thedas, and expecting to be able to live among them (ignorant of their laws and customs) while treating them with disdain is such a better option?
I don't even understand your last statement; I don't believe we've seen religious police in Thedas who ensure all follow the White Divine.
As you have stated yourself, DA:O allowed the Warden to be an atheist and disbelief all gods. And while this might have gotten some nasty reactions from people, they don't attack you.
If that's the case, you're looking at it under the influence of some delusion. Yes, Burkel wants to convert other dwarves to the Chant of Light; but nothing has shown that he wouldn't be willing to assist someone who wanted to hold to the Stone.
He did everything legally (petitioning the Shaperate and all). If you're going to use conjured fears from nothing out of evidence, what is to stop me from saying that someone like Anders was no better than Drakon? Is he not assisting people to make use of them later on for his cause (which, you know, we actually have evidence of)?
This is getting ridiculous. I guess we can also call into question if Andraste ever lead freed human slaves against Tevinter, given how long ago it took place.
Or if she even existed at all.
I agree, that is getting silly. It's one thing to dislike the elves, it's another to think that it was a myth that Aveline was raised by the Dalish. The gods forbid if anything disrupts the black and white view that all Dalish hate humans. No, because it makes so much more sense to stereotype an entire group of people. 
The Dalish raised a formidable young lady that set a presence for lady knights in Orlais. It's a matter of public record, a few times over. Plus, this is Orlais we're talking about here. They don't exactly have a great relation with elves (understatement to be sure,) and if Aveline had been raised by anyone else, they would have said as such.
The Dalish aren't all the same. Get over it.
Emperor-It's counter productive to assume a codex entry is false unless the entry itself is saying its a story. The codex entries are the game developers way of spreading out the history of Thedas to the players and does no good for them to merely through lies in there. As we hear that Aveline is a real person, then her story is at least as believable as the stories we've heard about the Blight's, or are you going to say someone made those up as well?
TK-I'd be surprised to hear you played as a Dalish origin, otherwise you'd know more about them. The Dalish see every single member of their clan as family, can you honestly say you would just abandon your parent or sibling to their death that easily? The only way you actually get Zathrian to finally lift the curse is by appealing to his love of his clan and family. Also "leave the sick and wounded behind to be tended"? They were being picked off as it was, with a minimal force left at their camp it would be suicide for those left. What's more, the elves would never make it to join up with the forces as the whole reason they hadn't just moved on was because every time an elf left they were set on by werewolves, if 50 of the elves left to join the army maybe 15 would make it, why bring them at all in that case? The elves did the most reasonable request available and it's one that each of the other factions asked: If you want our help, make sure we're ABLE to help first.
Right. They say they'll help as soon as the crisis is dealt with. And they don't tell you they'll only help if you help them; they've got a solution on the way. Your assistance has to be pushed on Gregoire because you want to speed things along.
Similarly with the dwarves. They're more than willing to help once their political situation is sorted out. They're not sure when that will be, but they don't refuse. Then they offer you a method to expedite the process.
What? So do the Dalish. Zathrian or Lanaya are happy to help as soon as the werewolf situation is resolved and tell you how to do it. Zathrian says he is in no position to honor the treaty not that he can but he won't. It's exactly the same situation as the mages and dwarves.
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