1079 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Aaw man... I jumped into that with both "feet" (get it?).... Joke's on me good sir, you win.

[Veruin]

I'm talking about the one's with a shield/dish in the right  hand and a seathed sword in the side of the left hand. They wear a helmet and are barefoot , i got to say the feet are kind of pretty. Are thiese statues female ?! Thanks alot.

Can't you just look at the shape of the statue as a whole?

 

I would think a slender-er face, bigger chest and smaller form would be noticeable.

[Iron Fist]

Yeah several dozen slum dweller elves vs Hundreds of Templars and Guardsmen and a Circle sworn to protect the City.

 

That plot line would have been resolved pretty quickly.

 

You're filtering my idea through the actual final product. If the game had been designed from the beginning with a different plotline (such as an elf/dwarf rebellion), then the numbers likely would have been more evenly matched (I assume).

 

It's not a completely ideal plot, just something I think could have been explored (in an alternate universe).

[DragonAgeFeetLover]

What do you mean by that EmperorSahlertz?! And no i cant figure it out they're to well equipped and they wear helmets ! They're the most common statues in the Tower! Check it out guyz and tell me please !

[DragonAgeFeetLover]

Aaw man... I jumped into that with both "feet" (get it?).... Joke's on me good sir, you win.

What do you mean?

[Sir JK]

 

I want to know which tattoo style belongs to which Creator. The lore states that each vallaslin design represents a Creator (http://dragonage.wik...:_Blood_Writing), but to my knowledge the devs have not said which design is which. We can only make educated guesses, like maybe Tamlin's design is based on Andruil the Huntress, since he's shown to be an avid hunter.

 

I'd like to make an educated, informed, canon decision on my blood writing design.

 

 

I'd love that as well, along with some context as to what it represents. But I'd settle just having which creator attributed to which tattoo.

[Master Warder Z_]

All this chatting about the tattoo ink makes me think back to Hawke sneaking around the Dalish camp and stealing some of it because the arrogant prudes wouldn't sell it to him.

 

Remember one quote where the merchant claimed they would sooner sell their children then the ink.

 

And i was like...Why would i want scrawny half starved elves with an attitude problem?

[Leo]

 

I want to know which tattoo style belongs to which Creator. The lore states that each vallaslin design represents a Creator (http://dragonage.wik...:_Blood_Writing), but to my knowledge the devs have not said which design is which. We can only make educated guesses, like maybe Tamlin's design is based on Andruil the Huntress, since he's shown to be an avid hunter.

 

I'd like to make an educated, informed, canon decision on my blood writing design.

 

 

This will probably be the best we'll get on what the Dalish tattoos represent, at least until a Dev says exactly what they mean.

[BlueMagitek]

Iloren and his people were fighting in the Anderfels, although the Dales didn't help their enemy, Orlais.

There's also the simple fact that the Grey Wardens often have to coax nations into getting involved, but the kingdoms drop their involvement once the darkspawn return underground, to the Deep Roads.

The dwarves alone fight the darkspawn while humans and elves alike have "stayed neutral" about the problem.
 

The Dalish aren't taught to be against all other creatures. They avoid the human societies where their religion is criminalized, their mages are outlaws, and their culture is forbidden and vilified.

It's stated that the elven pantheon is illegal by Chantry law. I'm not certain why you find this hard to understand.

They also don't attack The Warden for being a mage, even though we are repeatedly told Andrastian lynch mobs have killed mages who did nothing wrong. That doesn't disprove the fact that the elven pantheon was outlawed by the Chantry.

No, I'm addressing Burkel expressed disdain for people of other faiths, and cut off dialogue with my Warden for condemning him for it. I'm not certain why you have such an attitude with me simply because I dislike the character.

You're conflating two entirely different statements from me. Burkel cut off conversation with my Warden because he expressed a viewpoint that clashed with Burkel's own; in-character.

I also addressed that I wasn't incentivized to empower the Chantry by letting them get a foothold in Orzammar, outside of in-character perspective. That's the likely outcome of helping Burkel with his efforts to give the Chantry power in dwarven society, regardless of his own intentions. It's why I never changed my approach on subsequent playthroughs with that specific character I created for my eventual canon run with my Surana Warden.

 

You seem to be failing to grasp my point I've been trying to make, so I'm just going to drop that; sure, according to oral history, the Dales did participate in the Blight, but did not impress anyone and allowed their "enemy" to suffer.  Why was Orlais an enemy at this point?  Apparently missionaries are an act of war now, I don't claim to understand your argument.

 

Oh, but you forget that Harrowmont, a conservative Dwarvern King (unlike Bhelen, who claims to be a reformer), did not allow the human nation of Ferelden to assist in fighting off the Darkspawn.  Even when help is offered, it was refused.

 

The first scene in the Dalish origin is holding two captured humans at knife point for the crime of being in the same general area as the Dalish.  They are close enough to a village that the humans come back later to drive the Dalish away, so it is most likely that the Dalish are mooching on the nobility's property. 

 

I would like a citation on the Creators or Creator worship being illegal (heresy != illegal).  I would also like you to show me a scene in the game where elves are being persecuted for belief in the Creators.  I will point out that the Qun is much more of a danger to the Chantry than the Creators, and they're perfectly fine chilling in Kirkwall for years.

 

The only thing I can find is that, at the time that the Chantry stopped the genocide of the elves, that those elves that would live in the Alienage would convert.  That was a long time ago, and, if you didn't notice, the Chantry law isn't superior to the secular law of nations; you can see mages living outside of the Circle due to a favor of the King.

 

Yes, they run in the opposite direction because the Warden is a mage. 

 

It's been a very long time, but Burkel doesn't argue with Sten when he speaks up about the Qunari, the Warden might.   And again, why wouldn't he have disdain for the followers of the Paragon and the Ancestors?  They support a horrific caste system.

 

I'm glad that you would deny potential happiness for the casteless because of your paranoia, or even allowing another option for dwarves to take instead of knowing one thing and one thing only.  The Chantry already has a foothold of power in Orzammar due to having the greatest need of lyrium.

 

 

The Warden can outright condemn his views on non-Andrastians following other faiths. You clearly see him in a much more positive light, but I'm not inclined to share it.


I was addressing the Chantry of Andraste, which has forcibly converted people to it's religion, like the elves. I also don't have a problem with Alistair, Leliana, Wynne, and Anders being religiously Andrastian.

 

 

You also have a hatred of peaceful conversion by the Chantry, so I'm not going to take your word for it.

[Xilizhra]

I'm glad that you would deny potential happiness for the casteless because of your paranoia, or even allowing another option for dwarves to take instead of knowing one thing and one thing only.  The Chantry already has a foothold of power in Orzammar due to having the greatest need of lyrium.

It's not like Burkel has the power to change any laws. The caste system would remain in place regardless of whether the casteless believed in it or not. They may be happier on the surface, but they could do that as it is; Burkel would do better to, instead of preach, raise funds for some kind of charity that can help casteless reach the surface.

[BlueMagitek]

It's not like Burkel has the power to change any laws. The caste system would remain in place regardless of whether the casteless believed in it or not. They may be happier on the surface, but they could do that as it is; Burkel would do better to, instead of preach, raise funds for some kind of charity that can help casteless reach the surface.

He does not, you are correct; in fact, he's most likely casteless himself, given that he claims to be from Redcliffe (or a surfacer, so, maybe not as bad, or was it worse?). But instead of having the pressure of the paragons and ancestors, if the casteless find some faith in the Chantry and take to the surface, their lives would almost certainly be much better.  There would be panic from the nobility at them leaving (because they need the casteless to fund the Legion of the Dead), but if they had a backer, they might make it.

 

If I recall correctly, he does raise funds for widows and orphans.  But at the end of the day, he's a minor character from a minor quest, so we don't know too much about him.

 

Edit:  Supply the Legion, not fund it.  My bad.

[Xilizhra]

He does not, you are correct; in fact, he's most likely casteless himself, given that he claims to be from Redcliffe (or a surfacer, so, maybe not as bad, or was it worse?). But instead of having the pressure of the paragons and ancestors, if the casteless find some faith in the Chantry and take to the surface, their lives would almost certainly be much better.  There would be panic from the nobility at them leaving (because they need the casteless to fund the Legion of the Dead), but if they had a backer, they might make it.

 

If I recall correctly, he does raise funds for widows and orphans.  But at the end of the day, he's a minor character from a minor quest, so we don't know too much about him.

 

Edit:  Supply the Legion, not fund it.  My bad.

He's not branded, so he's not born casteless. And he's going about it the wrong way; setting up a Chantry in Orzammar won't go anywhere (and in fact it did not). Promising a better future on the surface and turning on conversion then would likely be enough.

[BlueMagitek]

He's not branded, so he's not born casteless. And he's going about it the wrong way; setting up a Chantry in Orzammar won't go anywhere (and in fact it did not). Promising a better future on the surface and turning on conversion then would likely be enough.

Yes, but he is a surfacer, and I forget where they fall on the scale.  I thought they counted as casteless.

 

The Chantry could, at least, serve as a beacon for those who choose to stay in the society.  But you're right, that would have been a more efficient way to do it.

[LobselVith8]

All this chatting about the tattoo ink makes me think back to Hawke sneaking around the Dalish camp and stealing some of it because the arrogant prudes wouldn't sell it to him.

 

Remember one quote where the merchant claimed they would sooner sell their children then the ink.

 

And i was like...Why would i want scrawny half starved elves with an attitude problem?

 

You realize your transparent attempts to bait people are fairly obvious to everyone, right?

[Master Warder Z_]

You realize your transparent attempts to bait people are fairly obvious to everyone, right?

 

Actually it was an attempt humor if i am being entirely honest.

 

Baiting to start arguments doesn't overly...effect me much considering my perspectives on most things DA are fairly entrenched already. Its about the same to me as randomly stating beliefs on things, its not an overly important facet of debate, if i sought debate i'd start with a Thesis.

 

Beliefs and all, Besides why would i want to deal with the hassle of Dalish Children?

[Grieving Natashina]

Someone asked for a source that it's not permitted to worship the Creators.   It may be "just" heresy, but this is a theocratic society we're talking about here.  That would still be a punishable offense.

 

http://dragonage.wik.../Elven_pantheon

 

 

 

The lands of the Dales were appropriated by Orlais, with elven settlements being uprooted and worship of the elven gods forbidden. Elves who accepted the Chantry's offered truce were required to accept the Maker and live in ghettos, known as Alienages within human settlements. Some elves, however, refused to give up their worship or their dream of their own homeland, and they became the Dalish.

 

Does that make it a formal law?  No, but considering the Chantry oversees every human land to one degree or another, it might as well be on the books.

[BlueMagitek]

Thanks.

 

Also, I think you're overestimating the power of the Chantry.

[Ananka]

All this chatting about the tattoo ink makes me think back to Hawke sneaking around the Dalish camp and stealing some of it because the arrogant prudes wouldn't sell it to him.

 

Remember one quote where the merchant claimed they would sooner sell their children then the ink.

 

And i was like...Why would i want scrawny half starved elves with an attitude problem?

 

 

I hear elves make good slaves for blood magic. That might help with the attitude problem, too.

[Grieving Natashina]

Thanks.

 

Also, I think you're overestimating the power of the Chantry.

Sure thing.

 

Why do you say that?  It's been proven that the Chantry oversees almost all the human lands, except maybe the Wilds.  While in some lands they have far more power over (Orlais) and in others less (Rivain,) it's cannon that they have a final say in laws in all the lands.  I'm not overestimating anything, it's a fact.  I do think the events post DA2 are going to cause the Chantry to lose a little of that political power, but for right now the Chantry still has a firm grip on the human lands.

 

I consider most of the humans (key word is most, not all) of Thedas to be living under a theocracy and I've seen no evidence to dispute that.  They may have their own leaders and laws, but as has been proven time and time again, the Chantry can still come in and supersede authority over a land should they see fit. 

 

Now, does this mean that every ruler in the lands is going to make it a point to convert the Dalish to the Chantry?  No, although I can see a nut or two proposing the idea.   

[BlueMagitek]

Sure thing.

 

Why do you say that?  It's been proven that the Chantry oversees almost all the human lands, except maybe the Wilds.  While in some lands they have far more power over (Orlais) and in others less (Rivain,) it's cannon that they have a final say in laws in all the lands.  I'm not overestimating anything, it's a fact.  I do think the events post DA2 are going to cause the Chantry to lose a little of that political power, but for right now the Chantry still has a firm grip on the human lands.

 

I consider most of the humans (key word is most, not all) in Thedas to be living under a theocracy and I've seen no evidence to dispute that.  They may have their own leaders and laws, but as has been proven time and time again, the Chantry can still come in and supersede authority over a land should they see fit. 

 

Now, does this mean that every ruler in the lands is going to make it a point to convert the Dalish to make the Chantry?  No, although I can see a nut or two proposing the idea.   

I don't know where you see that; Chantry law certainly influences secular law, but we see that nobles in Ferelden are more than happy to openly break laws in eyes of the Sisters of the Chantry, Orlais' bards are not afraid to steal from the Chantry, in Kirkwall the Chantry has an influence on people's lives, but it only handles the Circle and Templar Order.  Merrill is never uprooted from the Alienage or from the noble district for worshiping the Creators.  Marethari goes into the Alienage without being accosted, despite worship of the Creators being forbidden.  The City Guard never goes out to arrest the Dalish for being heathens.

[Grieving Natashina]

1) What laws in Ferelden?

 

2) Under what circumstances?  

 

3) The Chantry controls almost everything in Kirkwall.  The Templar order is a part of the Chantry.  The old Viscount was a puppet for Meredith, as many NPCs will attest to.

 

4) Does Merrill openly worship the Creators?  Other than some remarks to Hawke, it doesn't look that way.

 

5) The City Guard doesn't care, largely because of Aveline.  Good thing no Templars saw Marethari, but they avoid the slums  Alienage.

 

6) The Templars still try to go out and arrest the Dalish for existing.  Their law would have superseded secular law.  Shoot, Aveline had to fight just to keep her position open.

 

Heh, and people say that mages should not be rulers.  Fair enough I guess, but neither should Templars and the Chantry.  

 

 

Name me one time outside of Wardens where the Chantry didn't have a final say so.  Just one time, outside of the Grey Wardens, that we've seen in the games.  

 

I ask for game examples because I haven't been able to get the books yet.  Last minute bills came up, but I'll be rectifying that this weekend.  So until I read the books, please don't give me any examples from them.  It'll be meaningless until I can read the events for myself.

 

Please, some countries can't take a leak without a Chanter barking the Chant at them or a Templar accusing them of hiding their sister's boyfriend's nephew's brother's cousin's former roommate, that happened to be an apostate.

[LobselVith8]

You seem to be failing to grasp my point I've been trying to make, so I'm just going to drop that; sure, according to oral history, the Dales did participate in the Blight, but did not impress anyone and allowed their "enemy" to suffer.  Why was Orlais an enemy at this point?  Apparently missionaries are an act of war now, I don't claim to understand your argument.

 

You seem to continually ignore the fact that the Dalish have oral and written history. Also, sending armed and armored drug addicts who think they have dominion over mages by divine right into sovereign territory can certainly be seen as an act of aggression.

 

Oh, but you forget that Harrowmont, a conservative Dwarvern King (unlike Bhelen, who claims to be a reformer), did not allow the human nation of Ferelden to assist in fighting off the Darkspawn.  Even when help is offered, it was refused.

 

It takes a royal boon from the Dwarven Hero of Ferelden for Ferelden to assist dwarven society in fighting the darkspawn.

 

The first scene in the Dalish origin is holding two captured humans at knife point for the crime of being in the same general area as the Dalish.  They are close enough to a village that the humans come back later to drive the Dalish away, so it is most likely that the Dalish are mooching on the nobility's property. 

 

Two humans encroach close to a Dalish camp, with Tamlen and the Dalish protagonist trying to find out if they mean their people any harm. Nothing was done to warrant a lynch mob trying to harm and kill an entire Dalish clan.

 

I would like a citation on the Creators or Creator worship being illegal (heresy != illegal).  I would also like you to show me a scene in the game where elves are being persecuted for belief in the Creators.  I will point out that the Qun is much more of a danger to the Chantry than the Creators, and they're perfectly fine chilling in Kirkwall for years.

 

The only thing I can find is that, at the time that the Chantry stopped the genocide of the elves, that those elves that would live in the Alienage would convert.  That was a long time ago, and, if you didn't notice, the Chantry law isn't superior to the secular law of nations; you can see mages living outside of the Circle due to a favor of the King.

 

It's addressed that worship of the elven pantheon is forbidden: "We were not enslaved as we had been before, but our worship of the ancient gods was now forbidden. We were allowed to live among the humans only as second-class citizens who worshipped their Maker, forgetting once more the scraps of lore we had maintained through the centuries."

 

Also, according to the "Llomerryn Accords", Qunari converts have been killed for their religious views: "It's worth noting, however, that the Kingdom of Rivain immediately violated the treaty. Twice. Once, when the humans of northern Rivain—nearly all practitioners of the Qun and therefore by definition, "Qunari"—refused to leave their homes and go in exile to the islands. And again, when the Rivain Chantry and nationalist forces, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, tried a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves. It's a fortunate mystery that the leaders in Kont-aar did not alert their allies in the Northern Passage, or we'd still be fighting the giants now."

 

Also, it addressed that entire towns of Qun converts have been killed: "As each year passed, the Chantry pushed further and further into the Qunari lines. Dealing with those of the local populace which had converted to the Qunari religion proved difficult, especially as some of these had lived under the qun now for generations, and the response by many armies was simply to exterminate all those who had converted. Officially the Chantry denies this, claiming most converts fled north into Rivain and Par Vollen, but the mass graves at Nocen Fields and Marnus Pell attest otherwise. Indeed, so many were slain at Marnus Pell that the Veil is said to be permanently sundered, the ruins still plagued by restless corpses to this day."

 

The only thing I can find is that, at the time that the Chantry stopped the genocide of the elves, that those elves that would live in the Alienage would convert.  That was a long time ago, and, if you didn't notice, the Chantry law isn't superior to the secular law of nations; you can see mages living outside of the Circle due to a favor of the King.

 

Considering that the Dalish claim that the Chantry started the war against the Dales, your phrasing could use some work. At this point, no player is in a position to know what happened, but it's interesting to note that the elves were forced to submit to human rule and convert, while the Dalish effectively became outlaws because they refused to surrender their mages or convert to the human religion.

 

Also, the mages are under the authority of the Chantry controlled Circles (with the exception of Grey Wardens); otherwise, they are apostates or maleficar, illegal mages according to Chantry law. Apostates are addressed any mage "who does not fall under the auspices of the Circle of Magi (and therefore the Chantry)." The apostate codex further reads: "No matter how a mage has become apostate, the Chantry treats them alike: Templars begin a systematic hunt to bring the apostate to justice. In almost all cases, "justice" is execution. If there is some overriding reason the mage should live, the Rite of Tranquility is employed instead. Whether we of the Circle of Magi believe this system fair is irrelevant: It is what it is."

 

Furthermore, interfering in with the actions of a templar is viewed as an offense against the Maker. It's also addressed (by Alistair) that even the nobility can't interfere with a templar's duty, or imprison a templar. I'm not certain why you're even disputing this. It's said that the issue that arose with the Magi Boon was that kingdoms don't have control over mages - the Chantry does.

[Shadow Fox]

I love when some elf and mage fans claim to be tolerant and all for freedom of expression yet are intolerant and restrictive of things they dislike.

[Veruin]

I love when some elf and mage fans claim to be tolerant and all for freedom of expression yet are intolerant and restrictive of things they dislike.

That's just how things work around here.