1079 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

I love when some elf and mage fans claim to be tolerant and all for freedom of expression yet are intolerant and restrictive of things they dislike.

 

They who? The mages and elves or the person supporting them?

[Grieving Natashina]

I love when some elf and mage fans claim to be tolerant and all for freedom of expression yet are intolerant and restrictive of things they dislike.

Welcome to the forums.  Coffee?  I keep some fresh for those of us that are usually in the Peanut Gallery in the back.

[Veruin]

You seem to continually ignore the fact that the Dalish have oral and written history. Also, sending armed and armored drug addicts who think they have dominion over mages by divine right into sovereign territory can certainly be seen as an act of aggression.

 

Again with the Divine Right crap.  I take it you chose to interpret the Grand Clerics word as to refer to all mages?

 

"I remember that, but I think you're forgetting the context of it.  It was a blood mage Irminric was apprehending, not some normal apostate.  So, I suppose it just depends how you interpret it.  I'm inclined to believe that since Bann Alfstanna made it quite clear it was a blood mage that Loghain picked up, that's where the  "interfering with a Templars sacred duties" comes into play, as we all know how paranoid the chantry is on blood magic."

[LobselVith8]

 

Yes, they run in the opposite direction because the Warden is a mage. 

 

You mean the bandits? Yes, the bandits outside Lothering run away, while Mother Hannah assures an Amell Warden that a lynch mob won't try to kill him for being a mage.

 

It's been a very long time, but Burkel doesn't argue with Sten when he speaks up about the Qunari, the Warden might.   And again, why wouldn't he have disdain for the followers of the Paragon and the Ancestors?  They support a horrific caste system.

 

I'm glad that you would deny potential happiness for the casteless because of your paranoia, or even allowing another option for dwarves to take instead of knowing one thing and one thing only.  The Chantry already has a foothold of power in Orzammar due to having the greatest need of lyrium.

 

Burkel cut off the conversation with my Surana Warden because my Warden condemned his view of non-Andrastians; you also seem to be forgetting that Burkel is speaking to the protagonist directly.

 

Also, my Warden has seen the benefits that the Andrastian faith has provided to the impoverished elves of the Alienage. 

 

As for me, personally: giving the Chantry a foothold over the dwarves of Orzammar seemed like a grave mistake, especially after what happened to the Dales, so I was never incentivized to take a different course of action.

 

You also have a hatred of peaceful conversion by the Chantry, so I'm not going to take your word for it.

 

I didn't have a problem with Fenris finding comfort in the Andrastian faith, which was fairly peaceful.

[Shadow Fox]

They who? The mages and elves or the person supporting them?

The fans mostly.

[Shadow Fox]

 

 

 

You mean the bandits? Yes, the bandits outside Lothering run away, while Mother Hannah assures an Amell Warden that a lynch mob won't try to kill him for being a mage.

 

 

Burkel cut off the conversation with my Surana Warden because my Warden condemned his view of non-Andrastians; you also seem to be forgetting that Burkel is speaking to the protagonist directly.

 

Also, my Warden has seen the benefits that the Andrastian faith has provided to the impoverished elves of the Alienage. 

 

As for me, personally: giving the Chantry a foothold over the dwarves of Orzammar seemed like a grave mistake, especially after what happened to the Dales, so I was never incentivized to take a different course of action.

 

 

I didn't have a problem with Fenris finding comfort in the Andrastian faith, which was fairly peaceful.

 

Wait you insulted his beliefs and it surprised you that he doesn't want to talk to you?

Well would you rather the Chantry not stepped in and allowed them to be massacred?

If you believe the Dalish didn't do anything to earn it then sure even if you ignore that it was Andraste that gave them the Dales.

[LobselVith8]

Wait you insulted his beliefs and it surprised you that he doesn't want to talk to you?

 

My Surana Warden condemned his negative views of non-Andrastian beliefs, and non-Andrastians. I'm not certain why this needs to keep getting brought up in a thread about the Dalish when the pro-Chantry fans simply have me repeating myself on the subject.

 

Well would you rather the Chantry not stepped in and allowed them to be massacred?

 

If the Dalish historical account is correct, I'd rather that the Chantry didn't invade the Dales and start a war with the elves in the first place.

 

If you believe the Dalish didn't do anything to earn it then sure even if you ignore that it was Andraste that gave them the Dales.

 

Shartan and the elves fought alongside Andraste and the humans against Tevinter, and Andraste didn't give anyone anything; she was killed, along with Shartan, by the Imperium. Andraste's sons gave the elves the Dales for everything they had done in the war against Tevinter.

[Sir JK]

It's addressed that worship of the elven pantheon is forbidden: "We were not enslaved as we had been before, but our worship of the ancient gods was now forbidden. We were allowed to live among the humans only as second-class citizens who worshipped their Maker, forgetting once more the scraps of lore we had maintained through the centuries."

 

Also, according to the "Llomerryn Accords", Qunari converts have been killed for their religious views: "It's worth noting, however, that the Kingdom of Rivain immediately violated the treaty. Twice. Once, when the humans of northern Rivain—nearly all practitioners of the Qun and therefore by definition, "Qunari"—refused to leave their homes and go in exile to the islands. And again, when the Rivain Chantry and nationalist forces, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, tried a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves. It's a fortunate mystery that the leaders in Kont-aar did not alert their allies in the Northern Passage, or we'd still be fighting the giants now."

 

Also, it addressed that entire towns of Qun converts have been killed: "As each year passed, the Chantry pushed further and further into the Qunari lines. Dealing with those of the local populace which had converted to the Qunari religion proved difficult, especially as some of these had lived under the qun now for generations, and the response by many armies was simply to exterminate all those who had converted. Officially the Chantry denies this, claiming most converts fled north into Rivain and Par Vollen, but the mass graves at Nocen Fields and Marnus Pell attest otherwise. Indeed, so many were slain at Marnus Pell that the Veil is said to be permanently sundered, the ruins still plagued by restless corpses to this day."

 

Paradoxically... this is the same branch of the Chantry that tolerates a permanent Dalish settlement, have a somewhat peaceful cooexistance with the Rivaini seers and allows the latter to recruit young mages directly from the Darsmuid circle (there's simply no way the Grand Cleric of Rivain didn't know).

 

Furthermore, interfering in with the actions of a templar is viewed as an offense against the Maker. It's also addressed (by Alistair) that even the nobility can't interfere with a templar's duty, or imprison a templar. I'm not certain why you're even disputing this. It's said that the issue that arose with the Magi Boon was that kingdoms don't have control over mages - the Chantry does.

 

Well... Nevarra and Rivain does. Not all of them... but significant minorities.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I believe it is said somewhere that Andraste and Mafterath granted the elves the Dales. But I'm trying to remember if it was World of Thedas or the wiki or a codex that said that. WoT does mention Mafterath being the one.

 

Hahren Sarel seems to think it was Andraste though. "We did not think the humans would be so quick to revoke their prophet's gift."

[Mistic]

Paradoxically... this is the same branch of the Chantry that tolerates a permanent Dalish settlement, have a somewhat peaceful cooexistance with the Rivaini seers and allows the latter to recruit young mages directly from the Darsmuid circle (there's simply no way the Grand Cleric of Rivain didn't know).

 

Wait, where is stated that the seers can recruit mages from the Darsmuid Circle? In WoT?

 

It interests me. I've always thought that in Rivain only the elite were clearly pro-Andrastian, but they sit on a poweder keg of very different people. Up until now, my personal view was that that apparent ambivalence is the result of having a righteous Andrastian ruling class that, nevertheless, acknowledges that they are in the minority and have to make several concessions while grinding their teeth.

[Shadow Fox]

My Surana Warden condemned his negative views of non-Andrastian beliefs, and non-Andrastians. I'm not certain why this needs to keep getting brought up in a thread about the Dalish when the pro-Chantry fans simply have me repeating myself on the subject.

 

 

If the Dalish historical account is correct, I'd rather that the Chantry didn't invade the Dales and start a war with the elves in the first place.

 

 

Shartan and the elves fought alongside Andraste and the humans against Tevinter, and Andraste didn't give anyone anything; she was killed, along with Shartan, by the Imperium. Andraste's sons gave the elves the Dales for everything they had done in the war against Tevinter.

Well what exactly does he say?

 

And if it isn't the Chantry saved an ungrateful race of hateful bigots from extinction when it didn't have to.

 

It was still because of Andraste they were freed and given the piece of dirt to begin with.

[LobselVith8]

I believe it is said somewhere that Andraste and Mafterath granted the elves the Dales. But I'm trying to remember if it was World of Thedas or the wiki or a codex that said that. WoT does mention Mafterath being the one.

 

Hahren Sarel seems to think it was Andraste though. "We did not think the humans would be so quick to revoke their prophet's gift."

 

I believe the reference points to Maferath and his sons with Andraste as the ones who gave the Dales to the elves, in 1025 TE. However, the "Spirit" of Shartan is clear that a homeland for the Elvhen was always the goal, “It was my dream for the people to have a home of their own, where we would have no masters but ourselves."

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Ah, finally found the reference. The glossary section of World of Thedas says that the Dales were given to the elves by Maferath and Andraste.

[LobselVith8]

Wait, where is stated that the seers can recruit mages from the Darsmuid Circle? In WoT?

 

WoT reads that the foreign templars discovered that Rivaini mages were following the traditions of the seers, interacting with their families, and it lead to the Right of Annulment:

 

"When the other Circle rose up, the Chantry sent Seekers across the bay from Ayesleigh to investigate. They found us mixing freely with our families, training female mages in the traditions of the seers, and denounced us as apostates. Perhaps they thought we were spineless robes who could be intimidated with a little bloodshed. Before I was First Enchanter, I was the daughter of Captain Revaud, of the Felicisima Armada. I know how to plan a battle." - First Enchanter Rivella, slain in Dairsmuid, 9:40 Dragon

 

It interests me. I've always thought that in Rivain only the elite were clearly pro-Andrastian, but they sit on a poweder keg of very different people. Up until now, my personal view was that that apparent ambivalence is the result of having a righteous Andrastian ruling class that, nevertheless, acknowledges that they are in the minority and have to make several concessions while grinding their teeth.

 

I get the impression from WoT that the concentration of Andrastian faithful are among the nobility, and those areas. The smaller settlements seem to be governed by wise women and seers, since they think women are the best leaders.

[Mistic]

WoT reads that the foreign templars discovered that Rivaini mages were following the traditions of the seers, interacting with their families, and it lead to the Right of Annulment:

 

"When the other Circle rose up, the Chantry sent Seekers across the bay from Ayesleigh to investigate. They found us mixing freely with our families, training female mages in the traditions of the seers, and denounced us as apostates. Perhaps they thought we were spineless robes who could be intimidated with a little bloodshed. Before I was First Enchanter, I was the daughter of Captain Revaud, of the Felicisima Armada. I know how to plan a battle." - First Enchanter Rivella, slain in Dairsmuid, 9:40 Dragon

 

Thank you very much!

 

However, it means that what I suspected was right: there was no policy of tolerance. It's just that the ruling class in the Chantry of Rivain thought that just by having the former seers in a Circle everything was under control. And when things started getting ugly after the Kirkwall Uprising and investigators were sent, the Chantry found out that they didn't have anything under control. Thus the Annulment.

[Sir JK]

Wait, where is stated that the seers can recruit mages from the Darsmuid Circle? In WoT?

 

It interests me. I've always thought that in Rivain only the elite were clearly pro-Andrastian, but they sit on a poweder keg of very different people. Up until now, my personal view was that that apparent ambivalence is the result of having a righteous Andrastian ruling class that, nevertheless, acknowledges that they are in the minority and have to make several concessions while grinding their teeth.

 

Page 102 sidebar, as explanation for why the Darsmuíd circle was annulled. It mentions that the Seekers looked closely at the Circles after Kirkwall and were rather shocked at what happened in Rivain and sailed back to Antiva to fetch an army of templars (note they didn't use the Rivaini templars).

 

But yeah... Rivain is a powderkeg waiting to blow.

[Shadow Fox]

Well what exactly does he say?

 

Anyone?

[LobselVith8]

Ah, finally found the reference. The glossary section of World of Thedas says that the Dales were given to the elves by Maferath and Andraste.

 

Which is odd that WoT would print that, because of the codex of the Dales reads: "But we stayed with our so-called allies until the war ended. Our reward: A land in southern Orlais called the Dales. So we began the Long Walk to our new home."

[Dean_the_Young]

Perhaps they thought we were spineless robes who could be intimidated with a little bloodshed. Before I was First Enchanter, I was the daughter of Captain Revaud, of the Felicisima Armada. I know how to plan a battle." - First Enchanter Rivella, slain in Dairsmuid, 9:40 Dragon

 

 

This is why I hate chauvinistic commanders making speeches before decisive battles. It's too hard not to giggle.

 

Not quite as amusing as 'They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist-'... but comeuppance all the same.

[Sir JK]

However, it means that what I suspected was right: there was no policy of tolerance. It's just that the ruling class in the Chantry of Rivain thought that just by having the former seers in a Circle everything was under control. And when things started getting ugly after the Kirkwall Uprising and investigators were sent, the Chantry found out that they didn't have anything under control. Thus the Annulment.

 

Rivain had a policy of tolerance... just not one approved from Val Royeaux. The Grand Cleric and the Knight Commander in Darsmuid must've known what was going on and never once signalled the rest of the order. Probably for the reasons you speculated. Pragmatism tend to weigh higher than ideology when you don't have a lot of power to wield.

 

Which is probably true for the Dalish as well. Though... unlike the pantheists, they wouldn't have had much popular support protecting them. And unlike the qunari, does not have a warmachine backing them...and yet that lot was massacred despite a peace accord protecting them.

 

Which leads me to conclude that the Rivaini Chantry is a very paradoxical thing. Tolerates Dalish, pantheists and is very liberal with it's circle... unforgiving to qunari converts.

 

I suspect all chantries are like that... the Anderfels one probably is very supportive of the Wardens. The Nevarran one does not bat an eyelash at Mortalitisi and is happy to mummify, not burn, the dead.

[Shadow Fox]

Which is odd that WoT would print that, because of the codex of the Dales reads: "But we stayed with our so-called allies until the war ended. Our reward: A land in southern Orlais called the Dales. So we began the Long Walk to our new home."

Except it's been said codexs are unreliable.

[The Elder King]

Which is odd that WoT would print that, because of the codex of the Dales reads: "But we stayed with our so-called allies until the war ended. Our reward: A land in southern Orlais called the Dales. So we began the Long Walk to our new home."

The Dales codex is only partly opposed to the WoT, since it could've meant that Maferath gave the Dales to the elves.
Maybe WoT meant that Andraste and Maferath already promised to the elves the Dales before the end of the war.

[Sir JK]

Which is odd that WoT would print that, because of the codex of the Dales reads: "But we stayed with our so-called allies until the war ended. Our reward: A land in southern Orlais called the Dales. So we began the Long Walk to our new home."

 

Not at all Lobsel... note the word reward. If Maferath gave them the Dales it'd be a "reward". Also remember that Maferath was king of the Fereldan, the Ciriane and the Planasene. The Dales would've been in the middle of his kingdom.

 

Besides... the entry clearly states the elves were granted the Dales.

 

Link: http://dragonage.wik...:_The_Long_Walk

 

Also... remember that Gisharel is the author of that codex entry and he's clearly a post-Dales elf. He's telling us about it in hindsight. It is not a contemporary account (like Uthenera is). He's mentioning Orlais for crying out loud... it won't be a nation for another 200 years.

[LobselVith8]

Some Dalish elves live according to certain codes. One of these codes is one adopted by hunters of the clan, called Vir Tanadhal, translating to the "Way of Three Trees" of the "the Ways of the Hunter." This is broken down into three parts, which was said to have been taught by the Goddess of the hunt, Andruil.

 

The other code is the Vir Atish'an, The Way of Peace, which is harder to follow, and it's stated few follow Sylaise the Hearthkeeper's path. I wonder if the codes are going to be addressed in the narrative with the Dalish Inquisitor.