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[Dean_the_Young]

The corruption the Imperium of Man cares about is spiritual corruption- the sort of breaches in fanaticism that lets Chaos take over.

 

It has little to do with political or social corruption, which is rampant.

[Potato Cat]

Will we be a first or a recently initiated keeper who lost his clan???

I'm interesting in this. I'm thinking it'll be a First, or even just a spare mage, because then it's less disastrous to the clan, (assuming the clan's still going strong after the Veil Tears). Also, being a First allows for a younger protagonist, but also sort of limits the possible age of the Dalish mage.

[Lulupab]

Leaders get away with all kinds of horrible things. Hive nobles are free to murder whomever they please from the lower classes, and frequently do so in amusing ways. One system has a civil war brewing over lack of space to store paperwork. Generals send millions to die unnecessarily and get medals for it. This kind of thing is very common.

 

Well humans pop them out way too fast in Warhammer lol. Calling the imperium vast is discrediting it. The enemy and corruption must be ended, no matter the cost. In Retribution if you play with Imperial guard, a whole planet is sacrificed along with everyone on it for greater good. But no problem 60 billion human population and still growing. This kind of corruption is different than the one I mentioned where a human turns against the Imperium itself.

[dragonflight288]

'Often'?

 

Everything I can recall the Dalish mentioning, including Merrill, is that they moved frequently to avoid such conflict. A Dalish tribe stays in the vicinity of a major Templar stronghold for seven years in DA2 and faces no such action.

 

'Occassional' would be warranted, but 'often'?

 

They remain on the move so they won't get hunted. The elves on Sundermount were threatened by templars to convert or die in a less than subtle way, if you listen to them in Act 3. Not to mention they aren't seen as worthy of being people, whether from Vaughn's attitude in Origins to that templar who took a young hunter, tortured him with fire, and when confronted about it doesn't feel any shame whatsoever and justifies by saying "why should I care about these knife-ears."

 

Seems to be a regular occurance if the Dalish stay in one spot. 

[Star fury]

I guess judging by many answers from this thread and on bsn in general, people just don't understand why Bioware portrayed elves as they did in DA series. They've made a subversion of the usual elven cliche - instead of making elves tall, arrogant, mighty, masters of magic, immortal(or very long-lived) devs created elves as short & short-lived, oppressed, they even lost most of their magic. Just like elves in Witcher series by Andrzej Sapkowski.

 

Devs also showed fantasy racism and xenophobia in Thedas mostly through interactions with elves. And resultant hostility and xenophobia from elves.

[Lulupab]

I guess judging by many answers from this thread and on bsn in general, people just don't understand why Bioware portrayed elves as they did in DA series. They've made a subversion of the usual elven cliche - instead making elves tall, arrogant, mighty, masters of magic, immortal(or very long-lived) devs created elves as short, oppressed, they even lost most of their magic. Just like elves in Witcher series by Andrzej Sapkowski.

 

Devs also showed fantasy racism and xenophobia in Thedas mostly through interactions with elves. And resultant hostility and xenophobia from elves.

 

It wouldn't be the first time. Don't forget the Eldar from warhammer too. You already mentioned elves in Witcher. But don't forget both the Eldar and Witcher Elves although low in numbers are immensely powerful and would obliterate any human force in same number. Such is not the case with DA Elves.

[Dean_the_Young]

They remain on the move so they won't get hunted. The elves on Sundermount were threatened by templars to convert or die in a less than subtle way, if you listen to them in Act 3. Not to mention they aren't seen as worthy of being people, whether from Vaughn's attitude in Origins to that templar who took a young hunter, tortured him with fire, and when confronted about it doesn't feel any shame whatsoever and justifies by saying "why should I care about these knife-ears."

 

Seems to be a regular occurance if the Dalish stay in one spot. 

 

But the Dalish don't- because they're convinced they'll be attack if they do, and because their lifestyle sees no reason to stay in the same area for longer periods. So are they getting attacked regularly and thus moving, or are they moving to avoid being attacked regularly?

 

Don't get me wrong- I think the Dalish would be attacked more often if they weren't nomads. (At least in their current xenophobic attitudes and depictions.) But that isn't the same as saying they are being attacked on a regular basis.

[Star fury]

 But don't forget both the Eldar and Witcher Elves although low in numbers are immensely powerful and would obliterate any human force in same number. Such is not the case with DA Elves.

Elves in Witcher books are not powerful at all, they lost almost everything because of humans and almost merged with them. Pinnacle of their efforts was guerrilla war against human kingdoms which was crushed in the end.

[dragonflight288]

But the Dalish don't- because they're convinced they'll be attack if they do, and because their lifestyle sees no reason to stay in the same area for longer periods. So are they getting attacked regularly and thus moving, or are they moving to avoid being attacked regularly?

 

Don't get me wrong- I think the Dalish would be attacked more often if they weren't nomads. (At least in their current xenophobic attitudes and depictions.) But that isn't the same as saying they are being attacked on a regular basis.

 

Forcibly converted or killed in the case of the Sabrae clan, or at least that was the threat. Their hunters kidnapped and tortured with fire, their whole religion is outlawed, and they are seen as less than human. 

 

Even in the Dalish origin if you let those humans go, they rally their village to attack the Dalish so Merethari orders the clan to prepare to leave while the village is rallying. 

 

And given the racism against the elves, I think it's established if the Dalish do stay in any one area, once their location is known, it is inevitable they will be attacked or the templars will try to take their keeper or forcibly convert them or something. 

 

They aren't attacked because they're nomadic. And every instance in the game that we know of of a clan staying in one spot always resulted in an attack, torture of their clan members, or threats. I'd say that they aren't convincing themselves, but instead the evidence speaks for itself.

[Lulupab]

Elves in Witcher books are not powerful at all, they lost almost everything because of humans and almost merged with them. Pinnacle of their efforts was guerrilla war against human kingdoms which was crushed in the end.

 

Well my point was one elf was far superior than one human. Faster, better magic etc... Its not like that in DA.

[Xilizhra]

Elves in Witcher books are not powerful at all, they lost almost everything because of humans and almost merged with them. Pinnacle of their efforts was guerrilla war against human kingdoms which was crushed in the end.

Can't you bring the Scoia'Tael to some kind of victory?

[Star fury]

Can't you bring the Scoia'Tael to some kind of victory?

I think I wrote BOOKS, books by Andrzej Sapkowski.

[LobselVith8]

Yes, the Dalish do have written history.  But most of what we get is oral history.  Which is horrible for accuracy.  It might make a fine story though.  And it's always fresh, changes every time!

So you're okay with missionaries being assaulted and their church not doing anything to ensure their safety?  The Templar came after; so sayeth the Dalish.

 

You seem to be conflating the fact that they have oral and written history with your own speculation on the matter.

 

 

Two humans are wandering the woods when two savage elves hold them at bow-point.  The Dalish, being nomads, move around often enough, so it isn't like these two humans were spying.  I realize it's like, the Dalish thing in Origins to greet all non-Dalish visitors terribly, but that wins them no points.

 

The Dalish are under threat, which is the reason their clans are nomadic. That's why a templar attacked Ariane's clan. That's the reason the Dalish are wary of outsiders.

 

 

And yet, none of that is happening in the present.  At worst, a Chantry member is rude to you after you deny a blessing she was offering.  The Qunari recruit freely from the Alienage, and live in Kirkwall. 

 

You have absolutely no evidence to support that. What we know is that the Chantry member does nothing to a Grey Warden, and the Viscount is looking to avoid doing anything that has the Qunari attacking Thedas again, which is why he tolerates the Arishok and his Qunari.

 

 

Yes, Circles do belong to the Chantry.  But, as I've pointed out time and time again, nobility still get special perks and favors from it.  Connor can see his father, a mage can live outside of the Circle.  What I don't see are, outside of Kirkwall to an extent, Templar taking over sovereign lands and forces during an apostate hunt.

 

The nobility get special perks while still being forced to live in the Circle Tower, which is why a tower was once built for a noble who was discovered to be a mage; it's also why Hawke's status as a noble didn't change the fact that he would be imprisoned if it was discovered that he was a mage.

 

As for living outside the Circle Tower, I assume you mean Wilhelm. Wilhelm is a war hero in the wake of the victory against the Orlesian occupation, which was supported by the Chantry, so he is in a unique situation; the fact that he had a wife and child demonstrates that, since it's against Chantry law for mages to have children. And given how Loghain and Maric were contemplating what to do about the Chantry, it's not surprising that Wilhelm was apparently given his freedom after serving Maric and his mother Moira.

 

 

 

I'm not sure how to handle this statement. 

1. The Chantry already has influence with Orzammar because of the Lyrium trade.
2. You're so concerned with the possible politics that you're denying some of the worst off in Thedas (Tevinter blood slaves may have it worse) any sort of hope, change or belief that they aren't worthless pieces of rubble that will never be accepted by the Stone and be anything more than criminals, whores, or dead.
3. Brother Burkel helps out the poor and casteless.  If they come to him, he tries to help.  While I agree with Xil that he should try and direct them to the surface, that would almost certainly be worse than the Chantry.
4. The Dales denied missionaries & kicked them out.  That's the complete opposite of letting them open up a Chantry in the Dales.  That part of your statement just doesn't make sense.

You say that, but then I look at the above and frankly I'm not buying it.

 

First, the Chantry is dependent on the lyrium trade with Orzammar because of the templars and the mages. The ruler of Orzammar and the Assembly don't serve under the auspices of the Divine or anyone in the Chantry. Living in a virually impenetrable society that can be accessed through gates carved into a mountain is certainly part of why the dwarves are at an advantage.

 

Second, Xil already addressed a more sensible solution for what Burkel could have done, if he genuinely wanted to help the casteless and introduce people to the Chantry.

 

Third, there's nothing wrong with dwarves going to the surface.

 

Fourth, helping Burkel to build a Chantry leads to the Divine contemplating an Exalted March against Orzammar, so I don't see how aiding Burkel improves anything. Xil provided a sensible solution to what Burkel should have done, so I don't see the point in discussing this any further. You're welcome to creating a new thread if you feel inclined to discuss Burkel anymore.

[Master Warder Z_]

Third, there's nothing wrong with dwarves going to the surface.

 

Fourth, helping Burkel to build a Chantry leads to the Divine contemplating an Exalted March against Orzammar, so I don't see how aiding Burkel improves anything. Xil provided a sensible solution to what Burkel should have done, so I don't see the point in discussing this any further. You're welcome to creating a new thread if you feel inclined to discuss Burkel anymore.

 

Besides the fact they are stripped of Caste, Family, Titles and Unless if they bothered to take it with them, Wealth?

 

Going to the surface would mean giving up everything for Dwarves, Casteless are a diffrent story but even in game Burkel's first convert is a merchant, aka some one with a caste. You would ask them to go out their way to practice their faith so it wouldn't offend? And yet again you defend the Dalish rights to worship their own gods anywhere.

 

So him getting murdered due to his religion while doing a peaceful protest isn't warrant enough for possible retaliation? Amusing because you seem to be of the mind if some one even vaguely tresspasses against the Dalish its entirely alright for them to be murdered as a result.

[LobselVith8]

Besides the fact they are stripped of Caste, Family, Titles and Unless if they bothered to take it with them, Wealth?

 

Going to the surface would mean giving up everything for Dwarves, Casteless are a diffrent story but even in game Burkel's first convert is a merchant, aka some one with a caste. You would ask them to go out their way to practice their faith so it wouldn't offend? And yet again you defend the Dalish rights to worship their own gods anywhere.

 

So him getting murdered due to his religion while doing a peaceful protest isn't warrant enough for possible retaliation? Amusing because you seem to be of the mind if some one even vaguely tresspasses against the Dalish its entirely alright for them to be murdered as a result.

 

 

Fourth, helping Burkel to build a Chantry leads to the Divine contemplating an Exalted March against Orzammar, so I don't see how aiding Burkel improves anything. Xil provided a sensible solution to what Burkel should have done, so I don't see the point in discussing this any further. You're welcome to creating a new thread if you feel inclined to discuss Burkel anymore.

 

Is anyone interested in discussing whether the Dalish protagonist might be able to follow The Way of Three Trees (The Vir Tanadhal) or The Way of Peace (The Vir Atish'an)? I'm quite curious how the latter would be possible with an elven Inquisitor building an army and fighting the creatures pouring out of the veil tears from the Beyond.

[Master Warder Z_]

So when you are confronted when your own blatant hypocrisy you change the subject?

 

Good to know Lobby

 

Also you didn't even start this thread, don't see why you should be of the mind you get to dictate it.

[LobselVith8]

So when you are confronted when your own blatant hypocrisy you change the subject?

 

Good to know Lobby

 

The subject is about the Dalish protagonist. Burkel isn't Dalish, or even elven. If you're so inclined to create a thread to discuss Burkel, you're more than welcome to. However, I don't see any point to derailing the thread any further.

 

Also you didn't even start this thread, don't see why you should be of the mind you get to dictate it.

 

The thread is about the Dalish protagonist, not about how hurt some pro-Chantry players are that I dislike Burkel's offensive attitude towards non-Andrastians.

[BlueMagitek]

You seem to be conflating the fact that they have oral and written history with your own speculation on the matter.

 

The Dalish are under threat, which is the reason their clans are nomadic. That's why a templar attacked Ariane's clan. That's the reason the Dalish are wary of outsiders.

 

You have absolutely no evidence to support that. What we know is that the Chantry member does nothing to a Grey Warden, and the Viscount is looking to avoid doing anything that has the Qunari attacking Thedas again, which is why he tolerates the Arishok and his Qunari.

 

The nobility get special perks while still being forced to live in the Circle Tower, which is why a tower was once built for a noble who was discovered to be a mage; it's also why Hawke's status as a noble didn't change the fact that he would be imprisoned if it was discovered that he was a mage.

 

As for living outside the Circle Tower, I assume you mean Wilhelm. Wilhelm is a war hero in the wake of the victory against the Orlesian occupation, which was supported by the Chantry, so he is in a unique situation; the fact that he had a wife and child demonstrates that, since it's against Chantry law for mages to have children. And given how Loghain and Maric were contemplating what to do about the Chantry, it's not surprising that Wilhelm was apparently given his freedom after serving Maric and his mother Moira.

 

First, the Chantry is dependent on the lyrium trade with Orzammar because of the templars and the mages. The ruler of Orzammar and the Assembly don't serve under the auspices of the Divine or anyone in the Chantry. Living in a virually impenetrable society that can be accessed through gates carved into a mountain is certainly part of why the dwarves are at an advantage.

 

Second, Xil already addressed a more sensible solution for what Burkel could have done, if he genuinely wanted to help the casteless and introduce people to the Chantry.

 

Third, there's nothing wrong with dwarves going to the surface.

 

Fourth, helping Burkel to build a Chantry leads to the Divine contemplating an Exalted March against Orzammar, so I don't see how aiding Burkel improves anything. Xil provided a sensible solution to what Burkel should have done, so I don't see the point in discussing this any further. You're welcome to creating a new thread if you feel inclined to discuss Burkel anymore.

 

My own speculation?  I must have imagined being invited to sit around a fire while the storyteller brandished propaganda, regardless of the race of Warden.

 

That's my point; they're nomadic bands that come and go through other nations as they please; two humans aren't wandering the woods to find Dalish, they're most likely poaching animals (like Dalish hunters do) when suddenly they're held up by blood thirsty elves.

 

What evidence am I missing?  Aside from, you know, what occurs in the game?  There is a quest specifically about elves being converted from the Alienage.  And, if previous arguments about the Templar being religious police with nigh absolute power in Kirkwall is correct, remember that they weren't doing anything about it either.  Neither the City Guard nor the Templar were up in the alienage enforcing the Chant of Light at sword point. 

 

You agree they get special perks, yes.

 

And yet, there you have national sovereignty being greater than the Chantry's, imagine that.

 

Yes.  But they also control the lyrium trade on the surface, not counting the illegal smuggling of it.  Because of the bulk amount needed (mages, Templar doses, perhaps some for trade with Tevinter), that isn't a small amount of funds.  The box we got from the smuggler was, what, 30 or 50 sovereigns?

 

As it turns out, yes, viewing the situation from above with more knowledge on the situation reveals a better solution.  Burkel still genuinely wanted to help the casteless and bring the Chantry to the downtrodden; just because you don't go down an optimal path doesn't mean you're not headed in the right direction.  Burkel doesn't have the ability to just choose the top right blue option.

 

There is something wrong with going to the surface if you're a dwarf following the ancestors; you're abandoning your caste, your clan, and your ancestors.  You're essentially giving up that you're a dwarf under that belief system.  Another alternative to it, offered by Chantry or Qun, would allow the dwarves to forsake that.  They'd still lose their stone sense, but they wouldn't have the same pressure to avoid going up.

 

You can't use future information to justify present actions.  And that's only after Burkel is murdered, not after dwarves start being converted.

 

Why is it that every thread that even mentions the Dalish always ends up with an argument over whether the Chantry has the right to proselytize elves, mages, and other groups? 

Because reasons.

[Master Warder Z_]

Can't you bring the Scoia'Tael to some kind of victory?

 

In the games?

 

Not really...Minor Symbolic kinds i suppose, Oh and that free "nation" in upper Aderin but besides giving them a Nation to slink off into not much.

 

Also given that Prince Stennis becomes King Stennis and you basically just hacked off a portion of his land to make an independent state...That Nation's sun may set rapidly anyway.

 

 

The subject is about the Dalish protagonist. Burkel isn't Dalish, or even elven. If you're so inclined to create a thread to discuss Burkel, you're more than welcome to. However, I don't see any point to derailing the thread any further.

 

 

The thread is about the Dalish protagonist, not about how hurt some pro-Chantry players are that I dislike Burkel's offensive attitude towards non-Andrastians.

 

Actually i don't rightly care what you think about a bunch of pixels, i do find it highly amusing that you get so blatant about favoring one faction over the other though, selective favoritism is amusing.

[Grieving Natashina]

No one is hurt. Some of us are amused of jsut how deep your hypocrisy goes.

And some of this have no idea what those that rip into Lob are talking about.  You're looking for reasons to get offended by this poster and often come into threads just to trash on him.  Put him on bloody ignore and be done with it, for everyone's sake. 

 

@Lob: Where did you learn some of the ins-and-outs of the Way of the Trees and such.  It looks interesting.

[Hellion Rex]

Actually i don't rightly care what you think about a bunch of pixels, i do find it highly amusing that you get so blatant about favoring one faction over the other though, selective favoritism is amusing.

Like you don't play favorites with the Templars?

[LobselVith8]

My own speculation?  I must have imagined being invited to sit around a fire while the storyteller brandished propaganda, regardless of the race of Warden.

 

The Warden is told about the history of the Dalish from Sarel, who just lost his wife to werewolves. It's unfortunate that many don't even know that Sarel lost his wife recently, unless the protagonist is Dalish. It's also completely voluntarily to hear Sarel narrate what happened to the Dalish.

 

That's my point; they're nomadic bands that come and go through other nations as they please; two humans aren't wandering the woods to find Dalish, they're most likely poaching animals (like Dalish hunters do) when suddenly they're held up by blood thirsty elves.

 

I don't see anything bloodthirsty about Tamlen and the Dalish protagonist being concerned about two humans close to their camp; the attitude of the protagonist is entirely in the hands of the player.

 

What evidence am I missing?  Aside from, you know, what occurs in the game?  There is a quest specifically about elves being converted from the Alienage.  And, if previous arguments about the Templar being religious police with nigh absolute power in Kirkwall is correct, remember that they weren't doing anything about it either.  Neither the City Guard nor the Templar were up in the alienage enforcing the Chant of Light at sword point. 

 

The Qunari presence in Kirkwall is very delicate, since the entire point is that the Viscount is looking to avoid doing anything that incites the Qunari into another war with the Andrastian kingdoms of Thedas.

 

Yes.  But they also control the lyrium trade on the surface, not counting the illegal smuggling of it.  Because of the bulk amount needed (mages, Templar doses, perhaps some for trade with Tevinter), that isn't a small amount of funds.  The box we got from the smuggler was, what, 30 or 50 sovereigns?

 

The dwarves actually sell very little of the lyrium they produce to the surface, as per the codex on lyrium: "Despite its dangers, lyrium is the single most valuable mineral currently known. In the Tevinter Imperium, it has been known to command a higher price than diamond. The dwarves sell very little of the processed mineral to the surface, giving the greater portion of what they mine to their own smiths, who use it in the forging of all truly superior dwarven weapons and armor. What processed lyrium is sold on the surface goes only to the Chantry, who strictly control the supply. From the Chantry, it is dispensed both to the templars, who make use of it in tracking and fighting maleficarum, and to the Circle."

[Grieving Natashina]

Just wanted to add: This is proven by some of the dwarven epilogue slides.  The Chantry takes anyone dealing lyrium outside their control extremely seriously.

[Master Warder Z_]

Like you don't play favorites with the Templars?

 

I do but that doesn't make me ignore their failings or weakpoints.

 

Favoritism is something i engage myself, i won't lie.

 

But i don't raise the Templars to sainthood.