1079 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Zathrian keeping generations of humans cursed out of his own spite

 

The subsequent Dalish who tried to hunt down the humans after they were cured

 

Zathrian kept his clan in the dark, so that doesn't reflect all Dalish, just one man who suffered a huge family tragedy who let his grief go too far. He's not sympathetic in how far he let it go, but his clan and all the Dalish are not reflected in his actions.

 

And the other Dalish, you can actually run into them in the Brecilian Forest after curing the curse, and try to talk them down as a Warden. It's not the whole clan, but a single hunter and her friends, who abandon the clan to pursue their revenge. 

 

No less than we see among humans. And far more mild in comparison to, hypothetically speaking, a noble's son breaking into the alienage and abuducting the brides at a double wedding plust the maidens in waiting so he and his friends can have a good time, or again, hypothetically speaking, alienages suffering purges at the discretion of certain human lords. And said purge sundering the veil and, again hypothetically speaking, bring a bunch of rage demons into an orphanage. Such things never happen as we know because humans are so much better than elves. 

[Steelcan]

In all fairness, I'd be lying if I said I didn't understand why both of these examples did what they did.

God forbid someone killed my mother, under a curse or no curse, of course I'd seek vengeance (if you're referring to the Dalish elf we in see in DA2)

 

and as for Zathrian, what those humans did to his children was absolutely horrific, I think he was greatly justified for cursing those humans and quite possibly their loved ones -- but I don't think the generations of humans deserved to be cursed, they were innocent.

 

Cursing anyone who was not directly responsible is grossly overkill, and if I didn't want to cure the werewolves I'd have strung him up and let Shale have her way with him.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Zathrian cursed the humans who murdered his son and raped his daughter, who committed suicide. I don't excuse his actions, but it's not as black and white as you're insinuating.

As for Danaya, the protagonist can talk her down from killing the man who cursed her mother with lycanthropy.

Regardless, I'm not seeing your point in condemning all the Dalish for the actions of a few. Do you think it's fair to condemn all humans for the actions of the rapist noble Vaughn and his co-conspirators?

 

It became black and white when he decided to keep the curse going, long after the humans responsible were dead, just to feel petty satisfaction and to extend his own life.

 

The protaganist magical persuasion skills doesn't really diminish the fact that she hunted this man down and was going to mercilessly kill him unless someone happened to walk by at the time, and not even counting how many other cured humans she may have tired to kill in the name of vengeance.

 

I make it a point to look at things from a "what would happen if the protagonist wasn't here" mindset instead of what happened thanks to their intervention. I feel it gives a more genuine assessment of the situation.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Cursing anyone who was not directly responsible is grossly overkill, and if I didn't want to cure the werewolves I'd have strung him up and let Shale have her way with him.

I agree with this. What Zarathian did and how far he let it go is simply unforgivable.

[Steelcan]

Zathrian cursed the humans who murdered his son and raped his daughter, who committed suicide. I don't excuse his actions, but it's not as black and white as you're insinuating.
 

 

And cursed all their descendants and all of them as well for generations, don't forget them.

[Divine Justinia V]

Cursing anyone who was not directly responsible is grossly overkill, and if I didn't want to cure the werewolves I'd have strung him up and let Shale have her way with him.

 

True, and I agree with you, but putting myself in his shoes -- and I can't even begin to imagine what he felt or went through -- I understand his actions.

 

Letting Shale have her way with anyone would be messy, but quite the show.

[dragonflight288]

Cursing anyone who was not directly responsible is grossly overkill, and if I didn't want to cure the werewolves I'd have strung him up and let Shale have her way with him.

 

And this is not reflective on all Dalish. Just one man who punished the guilty, and in his grief, let the curse carry across generations. He's not innocent and no one is claiming he is, but his entire clan cannot be painted under the Zathrian brush because he kept them in the dark. No one knew why he lived so long and thought he regained elven immortality.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And cursed all their descendants and all of them as well for generations, don't forget them.

And any innocent person who happened to pass through the forest and get bitten.

[dragonflight288]

I agree with this. What Zarathian did and how far he let it go is simply unforgivable.

 

But just like with pro-templars hating it if all templars are compared to Alrik or pro-mages hating it if all mages are compared to Tevinter or Denarius, so too should we also not blame all Dalish on Zathrian. No one agrees with what he did, but is simply trying to show he's not representative of all Dalish.

[LobselVith8]

And this is not reflective on all Dalish. Just one man who punished the guilty, and in his grief, let the curse carry across generations. He's not innocent and no one is claiming he is, but his entire clan cannot be painted under the Zathrian brush because he kept them in the dark. No one knew why he lived so long and thought he regained elven immortality.

I notice none of the people who are vilifying all the Dalish for the actions of a few are doing the same for the Andrastian humans, and the monstrous acts committed by some of then. For example, I think purging an Alienage - including an orphanage full of children - is fairly horrific.

Also, I think you and I both mentioned Vaughn at roughly the same time - we seem to be on the same wavelength tonight.

[Steelcan]

True, and I agree with you, but putting myself in his shoes -- and I can't even begin to imagine what he felt or went through -- I understand his actions.

 

Letting Shale have her way with anyone would be messy, but quite the show.

 

That would be half the fun, seeing if he really is as squishy as she anticipates

[Hanako Ikezawa]

But just like with pro-templars hating it if all templars are compared to Alrik or pro-mages hating it if all mages are compared to Tevinter or Denarius, so too should we also not blame all Dalish on Zathrian. No one agrees with what he did, but is simply trying to show he's not representative of all Dalish.

Oh, I'm not chiming in on that. I'm just chiming in on Zarathian specifically.

[dragonflight288]

Oh, I'm not chiming in on that. I'm just chiming in on Zarathian specifically.

 

Ah. Okay. 

[dragonflight288]

I notice none of the people who are vilifying all the Dalish for the actions of a few are doing the same for the Andrastian humans, and the monstrous acts committed by some of then. For example, I think purging an Alienage - including an orphanage full of children - is fairly horrific.

Also, I think you and I both mentioned Vaughn at roughly the same time - we seem to be on the same wavelength tonight.

 

Yes we are. We're just riding the wave! Woohoo! Surfing internet waves! lol. 

[Steelcan]

The Dalish as a whole do possess some sense of cultural arrogance due to their heritage.

 

Are every single one of them racist and intolerant and such?  No, but the trend is pretty consistent that the Dalish do not trust outsiders, justified or not, and cannot be trusted to maintain good relations with humanity.

 

That's what I am trying to get at

[Steelcan]

I notice none of the people who are vilifying all the Dalish for the actions of a few are doing the same for the Andrastian humans, and the monstrous acts committed by some of then. For example, I think purging an Alienage - including an orphanage full of children - is fairly horrific.

Also, I think you and I both mentioned Vaughn at roughly the same time - we seem to be on the same wavelength tonight.

 

I am perfectly willing to condemn them, Vaughn can join Zathrian and Valenna on the gallows

[dragonflight288]

The Dalish as a whole do possess some sense of cultural arrogance due to their heritage.

 

Are every single one of them racist and intolerant and such?  No, but the trend is pretty consistent that the Dalish do not trust outsiders, justified or not, and cannot be trusted to maintain good relations with humanity.

 

That's what I am trying to get at

 

And humans and the Chantry don't? Classigying a group of people as heathens and outlawing their religion isn't arrogant or self-righteous in any way?

 

It's true Dalish can be more in your face about it, and that is one of the things that annoyed me most about the Dalish. 

 

Which is why I love Sarcastic Hawke's line.

 

Hawke: I seem to have left my pointy ears and self-righteousness at home.

Hunter: You....Shemlen! 

 

On a side note, the dwarves are just as arrogant and superior. And are just as dismissive to all the Wardens until we start proving ourselves to one (or doubletiming one) of the throne's candidates. The dalish at least welcome a Dalish Warden for more than the dwarves welcome the exiled prince or the casteless. 

[dragonflight288]

I am perfectly willing to condemn them, Vaughn can join Zathrian and Valenna on the gallows

 

Sweet. 

[Spectre slayer]

If it is, you've more or less torpedoed the argument that Dalish aren't magically reversing the Quickening, as it's explicitly said that Dalish live longer than city elves and have much healthier lifestyles. Not being subject to urban violence is also a plus.

The devs day otherwise, they have roughly the same lifespans according to Mary Kirby.

All the races have approximately the same life-span. But Qunari have sanitation and medicine, and so on average tend to live the longest. Dalish do not live any longer than city elves. The only Dalish to "reclaim" any immortality was Zathrian, and he was using a blood magic curse.

http://social.biowar...9770/2#16532235

Yes some city elves might have a slightly shorter lifespan in some cases but that's usually due to the environment they live in and how the Arl and his family rule, if they hav no outside interference then they'll have the same lifespan.

Anyway i'm not disappointed that we can only be Dalish but i am somewhat surprised since only confirmed mage and that the mage sets would be different and more diverse amoung other things but whatever i'm happy either way.

[Steelcan]

And humans and the Chantry don't? Classigying a group of people as heathens and outlawing their religion isn't arrogant or self-righteous in any way?

 

It's true Dalish can be more in your face about it, and that is one of the things that annoyed me most about the Dalish. 

 

Which is why I love Sarcastic Hawke's line.

 

Hawke: I seem to have left my pointy ears and self-righteousness at home.

Hunter: You....Shemlen! 

 

On a side note, the dwarves are just as arrogant and superior. And are just as dismissive to all the Wardens until we start proving ourselves to one (or doubletiming one) of the throne's candidates. The dalish at least welcome a Dalish Warden for more than the dwarves welcome the exiled prince or the casteless. 

 

Thats not arrogant or self-righteous, thats acting from a belief in spirituality and religion and is beyond the scope of what I am saying,  That's a theological debate, not the one I am trying to make.

 

I got a much warmer welcome as a human noble in Orzammar than I did with the Dalish

[In Exile]

Having 2/4 races I'm interested in playing isn't that bad. This will be the first game with a choice to be an elf where I won't be an elf though. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

I notice none of the people who are vilifying all the Dalish for the actions of a few are doing the same for the Andrastian humans, and the monstrous acts committed by some of then. For example, I think purging an Alienage - including an orphanage full of children - is fairly horrific.

Also, I think you and I both mentioned Vaughn at roughly the same time - we seem to be on the same wavelength tonight.

 

Who says we aren't. Dragon age is a series much like a song of ice and fire. By the third book you're just waiting out to see which ******* kills the other one first.

[dragonflight288]

Thats not arrogant or self-righteous, thats acting from a belief in spirituality and religion and is beyond the scope of what I am saying,  That's a theological debate, not the one I am trying to make.

 

I got a much warmer welcome as a human noble in Orzammar than I did with the Dalish

 

The quartermaster at Ostagar's general treatment of elves says otherwise. So does the common belief among humans that elves are barely fit to be servants. At best. 

 

That's self righteousness and racism without the need for spirituality. 

 

As for Orzammar, sure, you got a pretty decent initial welcome. But the moment some dwarves thought you were serving either Harrowmont or Bhelen, fanatics were trying to kill you. The dalish don't try that until you are pretty much threatening them with death by werewolf. 

[Steelcan]

The quartermaster at Ostagar's general treatment of elves says otherwise. So does the common belief among humans that elves are barely fit to be servants. At best. 

 

That's self righteousness and racism without the need for spirituality. 

 

As for Orzammar, sure, you got a pretty decent initial welcome. But the moment some dwarves thought you were serving either Harrowmont or Bhelen, fanatics were trying to kill you. The dalish don't try that until you are pretty much threatening them with death by werewolf. 

 

I don't think there is anything in the Chant that expressly condones the human treatment of Andrastian Elves, Andraste herself did free them.

 

How people act towards them is another matter.

 

There was a whole Dalish tribe that tried to kill Hawke, with predictable results...  In addition to their collective poles up asses about any human trying to help the, I mean geez get over yourselves and let me help you already.

[LobselVith8]

The devs day otherwise, they have roughly the same lifespans according to Mary Kirby.

Gaider and Kirby have given contradictory information on the longevity of the Dalish; it's unknown at this point what the current status is for their lifespans.