24 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Overwhem was much complained about in DAO.  I might have done it a bit myself.  But I think it was a great ability.  It was visually impressive.  And it was devastating, stunning it's target and doing extremely heavy damage.  This meant that fights against foes with Overwhelm were distinctive and challenging, as you had to adjust your strategy to deal with it, rather than just following your routine.

 

Though having an encounter where all the enemies have got it probably wasn't a great idea.

 

Enemy rogue backstabs in DA2 were also good for similar reasons, though they weren't as good visually.  And they were probably too ubiquitous - when so many fights have that ability it becomes part of the routine.  Also, until the later patches enemy rogues had too many hitpoints.  But the high damage rogue backstab was good.

[CybAnt1]

I think having enemy abilities like that is good - along with characters being able to develop abilities to resist them. So if they focus on Defender/Guardian/tank etc. ability tree development, they gain the ability to resist stuns, knock backs, and overwhelms/knockdowns. It gives you one more way of thinking about how to develop your character(s). 

 

P.S. if they bring back Mabaris or other creatures who fight on "our" side, I'd like them to have the overwhelm ability, too. The DA2 Dog was so much more boring than the DAO one, especially given you could control the 1st one and have it overwhelm opponents. Especially mages. 

[Knight of Dane]

I would not mind overwhelm and grabbing abilities as long as they aren't a sure kill against my melee rogues.

 

Give the player the ability to attempt to resist. Shake with the mouse or controller, something simple, let dexterity govern the ability to slip loose and Melee Rogues won't ahve to be punished for lack of investment in HP and armor.

[Wulfram]

I would not mind overwhelm and grabbing abilities as long as they aren't a sure kill against my melee rogues.

 

Give the player the ability to attempt to resist. Shake with the mouse or controller, something simple, let dexterity govern the ability to slip loose and Melee Rogues won't ahve to be punished for lack of investment in HP and armor.

 

I really wouldn't want to have to waggle the mouse about to escape if that's what you're saying.  Those sort of things are annoying even in action games, let alone RPGs.

 

If you refuse to invest in any defence, then you should expect that sometimes you'll have to take your lumps.  Constitution is as valid a rogue stat as any.  Though I'd agree that the defence stat shouldn't be made useless, and potentially some rogue escape abilities might work.

[abnocte]

I fully support this.

 

I really missed it in DA2, though I can see why it was removed given the turn combat took in it...

 

I think the way it worked in DAO was great, as it wasn't an instant kill and you could free your companion/PC in various ways ( shield bash, stone fist, cone of cold, etc... ), I don't remember if we were able to resist it.... I do remember a warrior and a rogue ability to resist/avoid the Ogre charge... but I dont think it worked with overwhelm....

[Knight of Dane]

I really wouldn't want to have to waggle the mouse about to escape if that's what you're saying.  Those sort of things are annoying even in action games, let alone RPGs.

 

If you refuse to invest in any defence, then you should expect that sometimes you'll have to take your lumps.  Constitution is as valid a rogue stat as any.  Though I'd agree that the defence stat shouldn't be made useless, and potentially some rogue escape abilities might work.

Except that the way overwhelm and grabbing in Dragon Age Origins worked completely ignored defense.

[Rainbow Wyvern]

Goodness I hated overwhelm. It was really freaking annoying to get overwhelmed, get up, get overwhelmed again, get up, get overwhelmed again... 

No. No more overwhelm, unless I can avoid it. 

[Wulfram]

Orge grab Alistiair

 

i. Morrigan/Wynne/Warden is on cooldown to cast Force Field or any freezing spell

ii. Morrigan/Wynne/Warden spells on Orge are all resisted by the Orge

iii. Leliana/Zevran/Warden being knock down and while they get up to late to save Alistair with Dirty Fighting

iv. no more poison left

v. Warden/Sten/Oghren talents on cooldown or run out of stamina

vi. Mages companions run out of mana

vii. party members including Warden are all already knocked out

viii. any WTF scenarios...

 

So Orge auto win because player cannot do anything about it...

 

 

Any enemy ability is an "auto-win" if the player has let themselves get into a sufficiently weak position beforehand.  But if you don't give the enemy threatening abilities, then it's just a slog as you chop away at a big ball of hitpoints

[Kali073]

No, no way. I hated the overwhelm attack from the first time I experienced it. Since I usually play mages a single overwhelm often took more than half my health (in the beginning at least), i couldn't do anything at all while it was attacking and then I had to wait through the animation of my PC getting up again during which the enemy was free to take away the rest of my health. It wasn't fun at all.

 

I prefer rogue backstabs in that case. Those attacks were instantaneous and I didn't have to wait to attack back.

[abnocte]

One of the reasons I really liked the overwhelm ability was that it took into account the fact that the game is a party based one. You could only free one party member with the help of another party member.

 

As much as I enjoy Bioware companions they lose their meaning when they presence becomes irrelevant in combat, in that case the game would be better of being some Skyrim, Bayonette, or whatever look alike.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Overwhem was much complained about in DAO.  I might have done it a bit myself.  But I think it was a great ability.  It was visually impressive.  And it was devastating, stunning it's target and doing extremely heavy damage.  This meant that fights against foes with Overwhelm were distinctive and challenging, as you had to adjust your strategy to deal with it, rather than just following your routine.

 

Though having an encounter where all the enemies have got it probably wasn't a great idea.

I liked Overwhelm because it really encouraged a tactic of patience.  You needed to keep a stun ability available to break up an overwhelm attack.  If all of your stuns were on cooldown when the overwhelm occurred, the victim was fairly likely to die.

 

As for having all of the enemies have it, that works as long as those enemies have some sort of exploitable weakness.  The wolves in DAO, for example, had a very low mental resistance, so they were easily stopped by spells like Sleep.  Encountering lots of wolves without any way to exploit their low mental resistance, however, revealed a weakness in your own party.

[CybAnt1]

It's an ability that makes sense for creatures/animals to have - spiders, wolves, Mabari, bears, etc. 

 

Large, powerful humanoids like ogres or trolls should have stun and knock back, or maybe short term knock down. Not pinning you down. 

 

I do agree that both "grabs" and overwhelms (if they're not finite in duration, or if the ability is infinitely repeatable) should also have interrupts, so that some other party members can stop the creature who's overwhelming you. 

 

Plus, of course, as I said above, possibilities for resistance, whether through stats (fortitude) or defensive talents. 

[metatheurgist]

Except that the way overwhelm and grabbing in Dragon Age Origins worked completely ignored defense.

Armor is a defense. Most of my characters would just giggle when creatures tried to tickle them to death with overwhelm.

[Cyr8]

I believe that there was a simple solution to this issue, and while I didn't really like overwhelm at all, I was sad to see it taken out of DAII. So here's my solution: limit the amount of damage that overwhelm could do, so that it could never kill you. Say, up to 15% of your remaining health. So lets say you had 100 health. You could be knocked down and overwhelmed for up to 15 health. A guaranteed 10 health is taken off if there is no knock-back effect used on the enemy to stop the process. One thing I hated was the overwhelm line that you would see form up. By that I mean, while my character would be overwhelmed by one enemy, I would see the other one just patiently waiting their turn, waiting to overwhelm me as soon as I got up. So, how about there being a grace period where you can't be overwhelmed, giving you a chance to use a health poultice/run away.

[CybAnt1]

To me it's a classic example of a "implementation issue". And there were so many of them.

 

People hated Mana Clash because it was OP'd (and crashed their game). Did they fix it? Nah, they just dropped it. It could have been re-jiggered to be less overpowered. 

 

People hated Shapeshifting because it was a bit broken and not implemented well. Some mods fixed that. Did they fix it themselves? Again, in DA2, they just dropped it. It could have been re-tooled so that your mage didn't have to pump STR to make use of their forms. 

 

I agree there were some problems with Overwhelm's DAO implementation. They could have been fixed, and they could have kept the ability. Since I believe in symmetry, like I said above, if it makes a DAI comeback, it should be available not just to enemies but maybe creatures assisting the player (if there are any). 

[abnocte]

I believe that there was a simple solution to this issue, and while I didn't really like overwhelm at all, I was sad to see it taken out of DAII. So here's my solution: limit the amount of damage that overwhelm could do, so that it could never kill you. Say, up to 15% of your remaining health. So lets say you had 100 health. You could be knocked down and overwhelmed for up to 15 health. A guaranteed 10 health is taken off if there is no knock-back effect used on the enemy to stop the process. One thing I hated was the overwhelm line that you would see form up. By that I mean, while my character would be overwhelmed by one enemy, I would see the other one just patiently waiting their turn, waiting to overwhelm me as soon as I got up. So, how about there being a grace period where you can't be overwhelmed, giving you a chance to use a health poultice/run away.

 

I fail to see why the damage an enemy can inflict has to be tied to the amount of health remaining of any of my party members, so I'm against such mechanic unless you were refering to the "Easy" difficulty, but on "Normal"??? Sorry, but what you describe is nothing but babysitting the player.

[Klystron]

I believe that there was a simple solution to this issue, and while I didn't really like overwhelm at all, I was sad to see it taken out of DAII. So here's my solution: limit the amount of damage that overwhelm could do, so that it could never kill you. Say, up to 15% of your remaining health. So lets say you had 100 health. You could be knocked down and overwhelmed for up to 15 health. A guaranteed 10 health is taken off if there is no knock-back effect used on the enemy to stop the process. One thing I hated was the overwhelm line that you would see form up. By that I mean, while my character would be overwhelmed by one enemy, I would see the other one just patiently waiting their turn, waiting to overwhelm me as soon as I got up. So, how about there being a grace period where you can't be overwhelmed, giving you a chance to use a health poultice/run away.

I certainly agree with the part about creatures patiently waiting their turn to overwhelm you while the tank is taunting and hacking at them and the rogue is backstabbing away at them.  Getting overwhelmed should reduce threat on the remaining mobs, they should decide to deal with their other attackers. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

So here's my solution: limit the amount of damage that overwhelm could do, so that it could never kill you.

Why?

 

The glory of overwhelm was that you needed to be prepared for it.  If you weren't, you died.  That's a positive feature, not something that needs to be fixed.

[Wulfram]

I could see capping the proportion of maximum health it could take, but not of current health.

 

Though even there I wouldn't really want to.  Constitution tends to be underpowered anyway.

[Mike3207]

I consider overwhelm and grab is cheap and cheating..because it deny the player ability to do anything about it when it trigger

You can do something about if you're a shapeshifter mage. All the forms are immune to being grabbed and overwhelmed, and your mage can Overwhelm and Slam once you get Master Shapeshifter.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I consider overwhelm and grab is cheap and cheating..because it deny the player ability to do anything about it when it trigger

But the player can do something.  There are several ways to break a grab or overwhelm.

 

You can't do it with the character being attacked, but the other characters can break the overwhelm.  Stunning or paralyzing the attacker worked.  In DAO you could also Forcefield either the attacker or the victim - both would halt the attack.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Orge grab Alistiair

 

i. Morrigan/Wynne/Warden is on cooldown to cast Force Field or any freezing spell

ii. Morrigan/Wynne/Warden spells on Orge are all resisted by the Orge

iii. Leliana/Zevran/Warden being knock down and while they get up to late to save Alistair with Dirty Fighting

iv. no more poison left

v. Warden/Sten/Oghren talents on cooldown or run out of stamina

vi. Mages companions run out of mana

vii. party members including Warden are all already knocked out

viii. any WTF scenarios...

 

So Orge auto win because player cannot do anything about it...

It's not the game's fault you have all of your relevant abilities on cooldown.  Against overwhelming opponents, it would behoove you to keep a stun ability available all of the time, just in case you need it.

[CybAnt1]

You can do something about if you're a shapeshifter mage. All the forms are immune to being grabbed and overwhelmed, and your mage can Overwhelm and Slam once you get Master Shapeshifter.

 

That is one reason why I sorta hope for the comeback of shapeshifting. Gives the PC - or maybe a party member - a chance to overwhelm, even if there are no Mabari or other "combat pets". Plus, yes, it was another method to give yourself "overwhelm resistance". Apparently, giant spiders can't pounce and pin other giant spiders. 

[Eveangaline]

I wouldn't have complained about overwhelm if it wasn't given to spiders

 

I mean jesus it's bad enough there's giant spiders and then suddenly they have you and you can't escape and oh god why

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Id rather overwhelm not be used as much by enemies, the children in awakening were especially bad.