143 réponses à ce sujet

[CybAnt1]

Hard to do plot twists when the game uses an omniscient narrator POV. I have a feeling they are not going to do that again this time. That was an aspect of DAO I didn't like. If a bunch of moustache-twisting shadow council dudes are plotting the Quiz' death, and he's not present to see it, it shouldn't be displayed as a cutscene to the player. 

 

This was something DA2 did right. As we've discussed, you generally don't see things Hawke and/or Varric couldn't have personally seen or experienced. 

 

Since this game seems to be focused on investigation, I'm almost certain things won't be seen - until the Quiz is there to find them out. 

[AmRMa]

I have homework to do so I did not have time to read through everyone's replies but I will reply to yours.

 

First off, I am one of the few who actually enjoys Dragon Age 2's approach to story telling. I am currently doing a replay of DA2 now as a Male Hawke in early Act 2. You are correct that nearly all Bioware RPG games follows the same path, see this chart:

 

http://politetimespl...liche-chart.png

 

It is to mention that Mass Effect 2 as well as Mass Effect 3 follows along the same path.

 

The sad thing is OP, Bioware HAS to do this because gamers are so closed minded, they only want the same thing over and over again (Call of Duty) and if something deviates from that path (Dragon Age 2), then they cause an uproar. Personally DA2's story was better than DA:O because Origins was told numerous times over through other Bioware games while DA2 was different. Just like KOTOR2 had a better story than KOTOR.

 

However with the adolecent gamers, they want to fell all grand and epic. They want their player character to be constantly reminded how important they are rather it being the first human Spectre in Mass Effect or the leader of the Grey Wardens in DA:O. I assume being the Champion of Kirkwall isn't as prestigious considering that the Grey Warden was the Champion of Redcliffe.

 

Oh well....

 

EDIT: In 2009 Bioware defended their plot structure. You can read it here: http://www.eurogamer...story-structure

 

 

Exactly right, it was a different story about a somewhat regular person who climbs in power, who isn't a leader of a faction, and who isn't infallible. Bad things happened to Hawke and they weren't able to prevent it and so people called her/him useless and a failure. I think it made the character more human and less "superman-like" than characters you usually play in games. 

 

For example Skyrim or Elder Scrolls games- you become leader in every guild you join even if you aren't exceptionally skilled in that area -Arch mage and I only know novice spells

[Melca36]

If it is Origins part 2, "pre-order cancelled". I, personally, don't want a predictable story. Origins was predictable, except for maybe Loghain's betrayal.

But it most certainly won't be Origins 2 (thank the goddess). 

 

They can't cater the game to one specific fandom.  You may hate Origins but the fact remains it is a beloved game by MANY people. They said the next game would NOT be like either game.

[JoltDealer]

No.  Inquisition is going to be Inquisition.  Judge it as its own game and consider the common themes it shares with its predecessors.  Whatever it ends up being, it will not be Origins 2 or Dragon Effect 4 unless you want them to be.

[DonaldFwump]

I heard that Inquisition was the game they always wanted to make, but felt that the world stage wasn't set for it yet, hence we got DA2.
 
I've stopped thinking of DA2 as a sequel to Origins and instead as a bridge between Origins and its true sequel to help set the world.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this. Maybe that's why I wasn't disappointed with DA2 like some people were. I never felt it was a "direct sequel" to DA:O, but more of a plot developer/advancer. Get to see the start of the Mage/Templar war and experience it instead of saying "it happened, it's important, here's inquisition." So it was more of a canonical inevitably, and thus we didn't get to make as many changes to the world as we wished, because we couldn't.

[Rainbow Wyvern]

They can't cater the game to one specific fandom.  You may hate Origins but the fact remains it is a beloved game by MANY people. They said the next game would NOT be like either game.

   ......

Um.. okay? I never said it was going to be like either... Or that they should cater to a specific fandom. I actually said it wasn't going to be Origins 2. Your random hostility is not appreciated, thanks. I also never said I hated Origins. I merely dislike it.

But keep putting words in my mouth and being hostile simply because I dislike your precious game. 

But this isn't on topic, so whatevvs

[Rinji the Bearded]

I think it will be the third installment of a video game franchise.  Those who try to call it a follow up or spiritual successor to Origins are probably trying to set themselves up for disappointment.

[Melca36]

   ......

Um.. okay? I never said it was going to be like either... Or that they should cater to a specific fandom. I actually said it wasn't going to be Origins 2. Your random hostility is not appreciated, thanks. I also never said I hated Origins. I merely dislike it.

But keep putting words in my mouth and being hostile simply because I dislike your precious game. 

But this isn't on topic, so whatevvs

 

For the record I didnt hate DA2 and I don't think Origins is perfect.  So you can end your hostility too.  Dragon Age 2 is not perfect either. Neither is Origins. It just seems like hardcore fans like to ignore DA2's flaws.    

[Majestic Jazz]

Exactly right, it was a different story about a somewhat regular person who climbs in power, who isn't a leader of a faction, and who isn't infallible. Bad things happened to Hawke and they weren't able to prevent it and so people called her/him useless and a failure. I think it made the character more human and less "superman-like" than characters you usually play in games. 

 

For example Skyrim or Elder Scrolls games- you become leader in every guild you join even if you aren't exceptionally skilled in that area -Arch mage and I only know novice spells

 

Thats the problem. I believe that the majority of the gamers did not like the DA2 story simply because they weren't all Superman like. They weren't the savior of a great world like Warden-Commander, Jedi Revan, or Commander Shepard. It is sad, but true.

 

Seeing now the PC in DA:I will be similar to that of Warden-Commander and Commander Shepard, I hope there are some vast differences in how the story plays out and does not follow the same Bioware formula of story telling where:

 

1) I start from humble beginnings

2) A tragic event happens

3) I am discovered by someone

4) Brought to a city to meet with someone important

5) Chosen to become the leader of the Inquisition

6) Become almighty important with Mary-Sue like qualities. 

[Bond]

BELIEVE ! I WANT TO BELIEVE IT !

Origins, with inquisition management, political/spy stuff, nobility, agents, more dragons, optional content, diverse landscape, multi-region open world....... i WANT TO BELIEVE PEOPLE.

[Majestic Jazz]

I don't agree, Hawke is beyond Superman to compare with. The reason i don't like DA2 story because the story is cheap. It just a story of a nobody who become a noble and involve in matters but fucked up later.

 

Revan have far better story than Hawke

And why is that bad? You just proved my point!

 

Hawke's story is the most organic stories that Bioware has ever told, a much more personal one that is complimented by your companion's stories from Act 1 to Act 3. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Let us look at Revan, i use "she" for Revan...she is Jedi who rally some of the Jedis to fight in Mandalorian war, become a Sith Lord later, then lost her memory in an ambush by Jedi Order, then she unknowingly become a pawn of Jedi order to stop her apprentice who is now taking the mantle of Dark Lord, she recover her memory along the way, then either reclaim her former title or search for redemption. The story continue where she lost in unknown space tracing something mysterious...

 

Hawke is a nobody from a small village who run away from the Blight, living in Kirkwal, try to reclaim her family status, become a noble, eventually having a conflict with Qunari, later involve with Mage and Templar conflict, she choose her side, but no matter it end up the same, the end

 

See the difference?

So you think every character should follow the exact same path instead of being different characters?

[Majestic Jazz]

So you think every character should follow the exact same path instead of being different characters?

Exactly!

 

This is why Hawke is so compelling to me because he is unlike any other character told by Bioware. Only the Exile has a better story but that was told by Obsidian, not Bioware.

 

Yeah, Hawke does not have the ALMIGHTY background like Revan, and Hawke's actions do not compare with that of Revan (Darkside or Lightside) but that is why Hawke is so better because his/her story is more grounded and organic like I mentioned. He is a refugee from humble beginnings who later became a great influence in the city-state of Kirkwall. He did not move mountains like Revan, Warden, or Commander Shepard, but he was important and his small actions will have effects in later DA games to come.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

What do you mean "different characters"?

Well, you seem to want every hero to be the "epic hero" instead of there being different types of hero types. I was just seeing if that is what you meant.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Revan is a unique character than any heroes i ever read or play, her background doesn't mean much because 2/3 of the game we play as whoever we created from the beginning, we heard about Revan, we talk about Revan, we search for Revan markings...while actually we are Revan

 

Now, Revan is created such, i mean her boombastic background, but for us who play, Revan is us for 2/3 of the game, not the one in the background

That didn't really answer my question. Do you think all protagonists should be like the heroes of epics and legends instead of having a wide range of hero types?

[upsettingshorts]

That's the point.

 

The point of Hawke is to demonstrate that heroes in history are largely a product of the myths that follow them.  As such, narrative heroes like Revan could only be the products of fantasy. 

 

Hawke is more like a real person that is overcome by events.  That hardly discredits them as a Champion.  Being the person everyone turns to is all that title requires.  

 

It's fine to prefer fantastical heroes, but let's not go down the path of advocating that stories ought to all be the same or follow the same formula.

 

On the other hand, I doubt that BioWare's writers will feel any pressing need to deconstruct hero tropes with a figure similar to Hawke twice in a row.

[upsettingshorts]

No, what i mean is, what is the point of playing an epic failed hero?

 

To experience different emotions than the same ones we get every time the fantasy hero saves the day.

 

To question our very idea of heroes, and encourage us to examine the truth behind the "epic" stories of our own history.

 

To be shaken out of our state of complacency, similar to the one Cassandra had as she interrogated Varric, that makes assumptions about how these stories go.  Just look at this conversation.  Your doubt as to whether or not Inquisition will follow the same basic narrative structure as DAII implies you don't know what to expect from the story. 

 

There's a reason that, basically until Dragon Age II, the internet got a lot of play out of this chart.  Hawke put a stop to BioWare's seemingly derivative narrative trends, and in doing so made the series new again.

[upsettingshorts]

But that is not what MAJORITY of players want, that is not the market....you may want what you just wrote, or some others as the same view as you...but that is not the market

 

People buy game for fun, what is the point of playing a game of a failed hero as the main character? That is un-fun

 

Hawke is designed to fail despite the marketing show she is a "Champion"...ordinary players see the advertisement thinking "this hero is cool, i buy" but turn out to be an epic fail hero

 

Maybe it sell to the people like you, but in wide range it don't sell when people know who Hawke is

 

You don't get to speak for the majority, not without a whole legion of citations to back you up.  Stick to speaking for yourself.

 

If you say, "I don't like this" nobody will argue with you.  If you say, "Nobody likes this" somebody will.  Every time.

 

And, predictably, I'm not the first nor will I be the last person to object to your conclusions.  Probably because they aren't as universal as you seem to think they are.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

What do you mean "different characters"?
 
 
 
Don't forget that we don't know who Revan is at the begining of the game...she can be a Republic soldier, a smuggler or a scout who wake up in Endar Spire. We only know she is Revan late in the game
 
There's the twist...Hawke have no twist
 
Hawke must
 

Spoiler

learn

your joking right? the revan twist was obvious when they spoke to the jedi council, wasn't a surprise at all.

[upsettingshorts]

Likewise, Hawke had a twist.  It was just the complete opposite of Revan's.  Revan is presented at the start as a heroic but limited individual who does their best to get things done.  Turns out they're an epic fantasy hero.

 

Hawke is presented from the start as being an epic fantasy hero.  Cassandra believes this.  Varric initially just repeats the legend back to her.  But she smells a rat, and through the course of the game the twist is that Hawke wasn't the epic fantasy hero Cassandra thought.  Far from diminishing her respect for Hawke's influence, it seems to reinforce it, because Hawke's accomplishments - however limited by the course of events in Kirkwall - are backed by the power of truth.

 

Personally, I like more than one kind of story. 

[upsettingshorts]

I never say nobody like this or that, i say majority of gamers playing games for fun...what they expected to see is their alter ego in the game become epic

 

Maybe some gamers like you want something difference, maybe you have experience in playing games, so you want to see something different...but reality is, such thing don't sell

 

That is why DA2 fail...out of many reasons

 

You presume that your idea of what constitutes fun is also the majority's idea of what constitutes fun.  You have no right to extend your preferences to encompass anyone beyond yourself without proof.  You do not get to decide that my opinions represent an aberration and yours represent "reality."

 

Again: If you were to limit your position to, "This is why I did not enjoy DA2" nobody, well, certainly not I, would be arguing with you.  By presenting your case against such a narrative as being not only broadly but universally true, you invite disagreement. 

 

Answer me this:  What do you stand to lose by recognizing that it's simply your opinion?

[upsettingshorts]

I don't even know where to begin explaining how utterly irrelevant that is.   Answer my question:  What do you stand to lose by recognizing that it's simply your opinion?

 

But hey, just for fun. Here's my counter:  Frozen (2013), subverted Disney princess movie tropes, earned billions at the box office.

[upsettingshorts]

Maybe they just got lucky, most of viewers today grow up with Disney anyways...so when they see something different, they like it...but i doubt the kids like it

 

So this is the level of denial we're dealing with here.  Everyone keep that in mind.

[CybAnt1]

You know, I've said this, but the story of DA2 was not what bothered me about it, nor the character of Hawke. Both were well executed. OK, I would have liked some moar epilogues for all the NPCs and not the weird possible ending of reign-and-disappear. And there was something about the whole three-act structure that seemed different. In other Bio games, each act feels like part of one story, in DA2, it felt like it was really three isolated stories only linked by one protagonist (Hawke). But so it goes. 

 

I really liked the character and his different story-arc, I just didn't like the strange new barriers between me and his mental processes, since I was supposed to be RPing him. My problems were with game mechanics. Dialogue, combat, streamlining. 

 

The one problem I did not have with it, honestly, was Bioware trying to tell a different kind of story; from that POV, I did feel it worked. 

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

You know the problems of DA2 weren't Hawke or how Bioware chose to tell the story, DA2's problems were:

•  
• Reused enviroments (all games do this but Bioware took it to another level)
• Poorly written charcters and motavitions (Anders and Merrill)
• AWESOME BUTTON style combat
• A sleep inducing skill and level up system
• A terrible inventory and armour system
• An awful 3rd act (which doesn't make any sense)