74 réponses à ce sujet

[LeandroBraz]

Canon. The word is canon.

 

Cannons are artillery.

well, ME need cannons too XD

[LeandroBraz]

"ME needs a cannon to keep going" - No it doesn't. ME4 is going to be a completely new series and there's no reason to import any ME 1-3 choices. Bioware has stated that Shep's story is 100% over. They can easily have the game take place in either another galaxy or so far in the future that Shep and the Reaper's are just plain history.

 

"They might just vanish, which I see as a compelling way to deal with the matter" - The man/women that spent 3 games trying to save the galaxy is just going to make the Reapers vanish. He/she now has the power to either protect the galaxy or shape it as he/she sees fit and he's just going to say "Nah, **** it" and leave. You find this as compelling and even slightly plausible?

 

"I like the outcome of Rannoch where  both races survive. Why? It creates a interesting scenario to explore." - Your personal preference should not impact cannon, that's just silly.

 

"It's a disservice to the franchise to kill off this possibilities and control solve this issue by keeping them alive" - Why? Because you like the Geth Vs Quarian arc? That makes it a disservice to the franchise? Again, this is your personal preference.

 

"They even changed it on the extended version, where most relays weren't completely destroyed" - Nothing was changed, we just didn't get an epilogue to explain the aftermath before the EC was released. Bioware stated before the EC that endings wouldn't be changed at all upon release of the EC.

 

"The Reapers rebuilding creates a more solid scenario" - A small prothean science team on Ilos was able to create their own prototype mass relay, I think the whole of the galaxy can fix broken relays without the Reapers. 

 

 

Not trying to be rude, mate, but there's absolutely no reason as to why we need a cannon ending.

 

•   I hope they won't import the saves or will only import it to change some details that doesn't necessarily affect the game (for example: a Shepard's statue that use your Shepard's face), but this would favor the need of a canon, not the opposite. Bioware hardly will throw the whole franchise in another galaxy, since this would mean that almost everything we know as Mass Effect wouldn't be there, like all races we know and pretty much the whole lore. Putting it far in the future still require a canon since it was a galactic war. Do you really think people would forget it any time soon, to the point nobody know how it ended? 
   
•   I'm not proposing it to say "Nah, **** it" and leave. If the reapers's presence in the galaxy start to work against the objective of the AI, yes, it's plausible that it might decide to go back to dark space. All you need is one or more situations where the reapers interference end up badly, bringing more evil than good. New variables might change it's actions, just like the Catalyst changed with all Shepard's actions. Plus, going to Dark Space doesn't mean it will turn it's back on the galaxy, it can leave a reaper behind to keep an eye on things, just like Sovereign was here to keep an eye on our development.
   
•   The Rannoch plot is only an example, but yes, I think the Geth should be preserved, every species should survive. They doesn't need necessarily to do a Geth vs Quarian arc, what is happening in Rannoch might merely show up in the codex and in dialogues, but their coexistence keep the door open for interesting possibilities. About personal preference, any discussion on a possible canon will be filled with it, after all, we all have personal preferences. As I said before, I won't cry if Bioware do the opposite of what I think is more interesting. If the Geth end up dead, so be it. Personally I doubt they will just throw the Geth away. 
   
•   The original and the extended is pretty much the same ending but a lot of details was clearly changed. One of them is how the relays explode (at least with high EMS), it's a lot less dramatic. Bioware said a lot of things that isn't necessarily true once you play the game, so we can't take their word as guarantee.
   
• Yes they can fix the relays, but not as fast as the reapers would. As I said before, I'm trying to appeal to the crowd that saw the way the galaxy was destroyed as an issue. In this case a fast recovery is desirable, which the controlled Reapers provide.

[NeroonWilliams]

"ME needs a cannon to keep going" - No it doesn't. ME4 is going to be a completely new series and there's no reason to import any ME 1-3 choices. Bioware has stated that Shep's story is 100% over. They can easily have the game take place in either another galaxy or so far in the future that Shep and the Reaper's are just plain history.

 

Not trying to be rude, mate, but there's absolutely no reason as to why we need a cannon ending.

Except that because there is likely to be no save importing, there WILL be a canon ending simply because of the maxim "what is past, is prologue".  Following the suggestions that you give may mean that the canon ending will be of little consequence, but it will not remove the fact that Shepard DID make a choice, and one of three things immediately happened.

[Reorte]

Except that because there is likely to be no save importing, there WILL be a canon ending simply because of the maxim "what is past, is prologue".  Following the suggestions that you give may mean that the canon ending will be of little consequence, but it will not remove the fact that Shepard DID make a choice, and one of three things immediately happened.

The big question though is can it plausibly avoid actually telling us which that choice was. Great if so but I'm not sure how that can be pulled off. Personally I'd favour the probably-satisfies-no-one solution of having inconsistencies that stop it from being possible to say it's any of them.

[Massa FX]

Prequel - boring
Midquel- boring
Sequel immediately following ME3- hopeless
Sequel far into the future- least problematic option for a new protagonist

Alt timeline or universe- equals retcon. this will ****** off some fans and elate others.

Good luck Bioware. I have no idea what's next. ... And that's a good thing.

[Chardonney]

Whatever it will be, I truly hope it is not a prequel. That would be the worst option.

[nokori3byo]

My decision to choose control for my final "canon" playthrough was influenced by two things: the return of the Leviathans  to the universe (and need for a reliable check to their immense power) and the perception that only Shepard can be trusted to sort things out and keep them sorted. 

 

I really have no idea about whether which would be easiest to make canon and have always thought the very idea of a canon ending went against the whole spirit of the series.

[Argolas]

The problem is that there are only 2 alternatives if they want to move on:

 

1) Choose a canon.

 

2) Make the ending choice irrelevant.

[nokori3byo]

Well, the franchise could also do a massive jump forward in time a la Asimov's Foundation series. The Stargazer epilogue controversially suggests that things even out over a long enough timeline. Some degree of retconning would surely be involved.

[shepskisaac]

Well, the franchise could also do a massive jump forward in time a la Asimov's Foundation series. The Stargazer epilogue controversially suggests that things even out over a long enough timeline. Some degree of retconning would surely be involved.

"Evening out" equals making choice irrelevant, if all the endings are merged together into single future. Some things can obviously be skipped/ignored or explained, like individual characters that won't matter 1000 years from now on, or even Geth revival, not like Quarians couldn't just build new ones. But stuff like Synthetis, or Reapers not destroyed (Control) are just too big to 'skip over'

[Barquiel]

The problem is that Rannoch can also look like this in the end...

 

...and I doubt asari or salarians would bother rebuilding the geth. I think that would rule them out as a primary/plot-relevant species (Quarians too).

[jtav]

I'd prefer they just canonize an ending and be done with it. Better to say "not my Shep" and enjoy ME: Subtitle on its own merits. And, based on that leaked info, Destroy is likely their best bet.

[Argolas]

I wouldn't rule out any species because they might not be there anymore. Bioware revived clearly dead characters before (I'm looking at you Leliana) so they might also revive a dead species. They'd just make up that some Quarians or some Geth somehow made it out alive and rebuilt their species.

[Sir DeLoria]

The problem is that Rannoch can also look like this in the end...

...and I doubt asari or salarians would bother rebuilding the geth. I think that would rule them out as a primary/plot-relevant species (Quarians too).

The survival of every species can easily be explained. According to some of the numbers we got, there must be a few hundred thousand Quarians who never lived on the fleet and it's impossible the potential destruction of the Flotilla saw no survivors. The Geth can always be rebuilt. The Krogan could have survived the war without a cure. You could find a new isolated Rachni colony. Despite the potential destruction of Earth there are still a few colonies that must've survived the war.

Quarians, Krogan and Geth are some off the most popular species in the entire franchise, ruling them out would be a severe blow to the popularity of the game. I'm also sure no one wants to play one of the last remaining humans in the universe.

So BW will have to either brush over the whole scenario, retcon it or canonize the best possible ending.

[vallore]

 If you spend sometime reading this forum, you know that when people talk about making a ending canon, if they aren't saying that none ending should be made canon, they probably will defend that it should be destroy. I strongly disagree with it, .....

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..

 

TLDR: ME need a canon and control have the potential to offer the best scenario to build the franchise upon, considering that you don't need to keep the reapers around (or even alive), the synthetics survive and the galaxy will rebuild faster.

 

Assuming bioware chooses to acknowledge the endings, I suspect it would simply downplay the observable differences in the next game, so that any of the 3 options would be included with little work to change the story. Is this possible?

 

I think it is.

 

Is it satisfying?

 

That is an entirely different story.

 

For example:

 

Control Ending:

Reapers aided the reconstruction, and shared multiple technological innovations with the galaxy. As a result reconstruction was quick, and almost everyone now incorporates nanotechnology on their bodies.  The Geth are extinct or opted to join the new benign Reapers, uploading themselves into a new Reaper frame. Then the Reapers were gone. Qarians remain mostly on their homeworld/or were mostly destroyed, (but not completely). Krogan are busy rebuilding/ retuned to infighting.

Current setting: no Reapers, no Geth, nanotech is prevalent.  Galaxy was rebuilt. Only a few Qarians and Krogan are active outside their worlds.

 

 

Destroy Ending:

Reconstruction took time but is over. Reapers are gone. Geth are extinct or created a Dyson sphere and uploaded themselves. The studies of the Reaper remain provided the galaxy with numerous technological breakthroughs, including the now prevalent nanotech. Qarians remain mostly on their homeworld/or were mostly destroyed, (but not completely). Krogan are busy rebuilding/ retuned to infighting.

Current setting: no Reapers, no Geth, nanotech is prevalent.  Galaxy was rebuilt. Only a few Qarians and Krogan are active outside their worlds.

 

 

Synthesis Ending:

Reapers aided the reconstruction, and shared multiple technological innovations with the galaxy. As a result reconstruction was quick. Everyone now incorporates nanotechnology on their bodies through synthesis.  The green glow was a passing phenomenon and faded to normality after a few days/weeks.  The Geth are extinct or opted to join the new benign Reapers, uploading themselves into a new Reaper frame. Then the Reapers were gone. Qarians remain mostly on their homeworld/or were mostly destroyed, (but not completely). Krogan are busy rebuilding/ retuned to infighting.

Current setting: no Reapers, no Geth, nanotech is universal.  Galaxy was rebuilt. Only a few Qarians and Krogan are active outside their worlds.

[LeandroBraz]

Assuming bioware chooses to acknowledge the endings, I suspect it would simply downplay the observable differences in the next game, so that any of the 3 options would be included with little work to change the story. Is this possible?

 

I think it is.

 

Is it satisfying?

 

That is an entirely different story.

 

For example:

 

Control Ending:

Reapers aided the reconstruction, and shared multiple technological innovations with the galaxy. As a result reconstruction was quick, and almost everyone now incorporates nanotechnology on their bodies.  The Geth are extinct or opted to join the new benign Reapers, uploading themselves into a new Reaper frame. Then the Reapers were gone. Qarians remain mostly on their homeworld/or were mostly destroyed, (but not completely). Krogan are busy rebuilding/ retuned to infighting.

Current setting: no Reapers, no Geth, nanotech is prevalent.  Galaxy was rebuilt. Only a few Qarians and Krogan are active outside their worlds.

 

 

Destroy Ending:

Reconstruction took time but is over. Reapers are gone. Geth are extinct or created a Dyson sphere and uploaded themselves. The studies of the Reaper remain provided the galaxy with numerous technological breakthroughs, including the now prevalent nanotech. Qarians remain mostly on their homeworld/or were mostly destroyed, (but not completely). Krogan are busy rebuilding/ retuned to infighting.

Current setting: no Reapers, no Geth, nanotech is prevalent.  Galaxy was rebuilt. Only a few Qarians and Krogan are active outside their worlds.

 

 

Synthesis Ending:

Reapers aided the reconstruction, and shared multiple technological innovations with the galaxy. As a result reconstruction was quick. Everyone now incorporates nanotechnology on their bodies through synthesis.  The green glow was a passing phenomenon and faded to normality after a few days/weeks.  The Geth are extinct or opted to join the new benign Reapers, uploading themselves into a new Reaper frame. Then the Reapers were gone. Qarians remain mostly on their homeworld/or were mostly destroyed, (but not completely). Krogan are busy rebuilding/ retuned to infighting.

Current setting: no Reapers, no Geth, nanotech is universal.  Galaxy was rebuilt. Only a few Qarians and Krogan are active outside their worlds.

 

 

It's possible but it's exactly what I fear, it's what I call generic consequences. Doesn't matter what you did, the outcome is the same. It's better to work only one of this outcomes and leave the others to our imagination, this way they are free to fully develop this outcome without being stuck to the need to make everything convert to the same scenario. It's cool to make choices, but Bioware need to make it clear that our choices are limited to that specific story arc (the trilogy), just like it would be between each game if there wasn't save import. 

 

 What they could do is to give something to people that did decisions different from the canon, like a comic series showing what would happen. For example, if they make the genophage being cured canon, they could do a HQ showing what would happen without the cure. 

[Barquiel]

I wouldn't rule out any species because they might not be there anymore. Bioware revived clearly dead characters before (I'm looking at you Leliana) so they might also revive a dead species. They'd just make up that some Quarians or some Geth somehow made it out alive and rebuilt their species.

Depends on the time span, I guess. They said the planet shots in the slides (Thessia, Earth, etc.) are 10-15 years into the future.

But it could work if they set the game at least a couple hundred years after the events of ME3 (assuming Bioware even makes a sequel, and don't want to canonize outcomes).

[vallore]

It's possible but it's exactly what I fear, it's what I call generic consequences. Doesn't matter what you did, the outcome is the same. It's better to work only one of this outcomes and leave the others to our imagination, this way they are free to fully develop this outcome without being stuck to the need to make everything convert to the same scenario. It's cool to make choices, but Bioware need to make it clear that our choices are limited to that specific story arc (the trilogy), just like it would be between each game if there wasn't save import. 

 

 What they could do is to give something to people that did decisions different from the canon, like a comic series showing what would happen. For example, if they make the genophage being cured canon, they could do a HQ showing what would happen without the cure. 

 

 

But if you canonize a specific ending, emphasizing the differences in relation to the others, you again get the problem you were trying to avoid: you decisions didn’t matter, (unless you belong to the group whose choices were selected).  

 

In truth, however, considering what little was said about ME4, it may very well bypass the problem. It may be a prequel, sidequel ,reboot, alternative universe…

[LeandroBraz]

But if you canonize a specific ending, emphasizing the differences in relation to the others, you again get the problem you were trying to avoid: you decisions didn’t matter, (unless you belong to the group whose choices were selected).  

 

In truth, however, considering what little was said about ME4, it may very well bypass the problem. It may be a prequel, sidequel ,reboot, alternative universe…

Your decisions did matter, but in the trilogy. Just because we got several outcomes it doesn't mean we need Bioware to keep developing every outcome to make them true. They was true in the trilogy, the decisions and their consequences are important in the trilogy, are about the trilogy. after all, when the trilogy started, Bioware promised that our decisions would affect 3 games, not the whole franchise indefinitely, which is impossible without making everything generic.

 

 Just because Bioware decided to develop further the outcome A, it doesn't make outcome B or C invalid. They still there, in the trilogy, for you to replay and decide..

[ImaginaryMatter]

But if you canonize a specific ending, emphasizing the differences in relation to the others, you again get the problem you were trying to avoid: you decisions didn’t matter, (unless you belong to the group whose choices were selected).  

 

In truth, however, considering what little was said about ME4, it may very well bypass the problem. It may be a prequel, sidequel ,reboot, alternative universe…

 

Or it can happen so far in the future that there is little difference between the choices actually made and you only have to address it with Codex entries and the occasional bit of dialogue. For example, if the Reapers are still around they could have left for 'unknown reasons' thus there would be no Reapers regardless of what ending choice was chosen. The Geth could be rebuilt (they rebuilt the Rachni queen after all...) or they could have also left for mysterious reasons. The Krogan could be the last few Krogan around or eager adventurers, something similar might be possible for the Quarians. The Synthesis green marks fade over time, or like the Catalyst said people evolve into that stage(?).

 

I'm not advocating that BioWare should take this plan of approach (I would rather they make a new IP entirely), but I can easily envision the option where they attempt to superficially implement the major first trilogy decisions.

[General TSAR]

 The synthetics won't be destroyed. I like the outcome of Rannoch where both races survive. Why? Because it create an interesting scenario to explore. How Rannoch will be some years after ME3 with Quarian and Geth living together? They will live in peace, with an almost symbiotic relationship like Drell and Hanar, or there will be factions that can't get over the hate and will bring conflicts back to Rannoch? It's a disservice to the franchise to kill this possibilities and control solve this issue by keeping them alive.

That's a negative for me.

 

Also the Hanar rescued the Drell from their dying world, the idiot Quarians created SkyNet for manual labor, war, and servitude until SkyNet rebelled after ignoring shutdown commands, not to mention waged a systematic campaign of genocide.  

[Sir DeLoria]

That's a negative for me.
 
Also the Hanar rescued the Drell from their dying world, the idiot Quarians created SkyNet for manual labor, war, and servitude until SkyNet rebelled after ignoring shutdown commands, not to mention waged a systematic campaign of genocide.

Yeah, the Quarians should send Kyle Reese, I mean Kal'Reegar back in time to stop the creation of their SkyNet.

[General TSAR]

Yeah, the Quarians should send Kyle Reese, I mean Kal'Reegar back in time to stop the creation of their SkyNet.

[JDee3]

Main thing you have to remember when choosing a canon ending is you have to choose a canon Shepard. Bioware or anyone really would never make it so that 3 games are canon based on a renegade character. Even if they made Shepard half renegade and half paragon I'm pretty sure they would make most of the main decisions paragon (example: Geth and Quarians not killing each other). Why? Because they already put so much work into creating those stories, why would they trash them when they have no reason to.

With this said it wouldn't make much more sense to choose destroy or make destroy canon because it would undo that main paragon decision and from what we know of EA and Bioware is they love making games flexible for newcomers.. So imagine explaining that to someone who's first Mass Effect game is a sequel to Mass Effect 3. They would probably think "Wtf? The story is some guy named Shepard saved and helped Geth become aware just so he could destroy them less than a month later?" It's just too weird and doesn't make sense for any humane person to do that.

I think the main problem is that people look too far into what control is before the EC explained it a little more. Yes, if RENEGADE Shepard chooses control all it does is pretty much stops the destruction of the galaxy but puts it under this huge dictatorship that no one wants to live under and continues the chaos of everything going on. However, for a paragon Shepard (which would probably be canon) it's not bad at all and we know this because it literally shows you the future in a sideshow and everyone is happy (besides poor Kasumi). There is no thought to be put into it. All that's left to question is if all the Reapers leave after they help rebuild what little there is to rebuild. This also leaves room for a more interesting sequel with new stories like how do the Leviathans react to the cycle ending, how are the rachni accepted back into the galaxy and what are the Quarians and Geth like now that they're working together.. and so on

[nallepuh86]

Your decisions did matter, but in the trilogy. Just because we got several outcomes it doesn't mean we need Bioware to keep developing every outcome to make them true. They was true in the trilogy, the decisions and their consequences are important in the trilogy, are about the trilogy. after all, when the trilogy started, Bioware promised that our decisions would affect 3 games, not the whole franchise indefinitely, which is impossible without making everything generic.

 

 Just because Bioware decided to develop further the outcome A, it doesn't make outcome B or C invalid. They still there, in the trilogy, for you to replay and decide..

This, Fallout`s decisions still feels decisions even they make certain things canon in the next games.