43 réponses à ce sujet

[Ariella]

Pretty much the title. Have we heard anything at all about potential romances in DA:I?

[David Gaider]

I read it here on the "Bald Elf topic". I don´t actually have a direct source. But high five for him being romanceable!

 

Odd, as I don't recall saying it anywhere in that topic. If I had, I imagine you'd have a direct source.

[David Gaider]

^two Devs liked this.

Semi-confirmed.

 

Mary and Sheryl like it when someone is so wrong they can cackle.

[Mary Kirby]

Do they look like this? 

(snip)

 

 

Personally, I am more like this:

 

[Allan Schumacher]

How did I miss this thread?

 

So many interesting suppositions.  I feel like I have too much power knowing those who will be happy, and those who will feed writer tears (lol who am I kidding... I'm sure tears will be made by all... just for different reasons! )

[Allan Schumacher]

Have I ever told you that I make a mean batch of chocolate chip cookies?  Or whatever kind of cookie happens to be your favorite, that is my specialty!

 

I can't even imagine how much evil giggling you must do when you read our posts.

 

I prefer to think boisterous cackle.  Or at least guffawing.  But definitely some level of Vincent Price.

[Allan Schumacher]

SAME! Either a beautiful younger man or an older manly man. MMMMM MEN.

 

In any case no skinny short baldy Solas for me!

 

(Man I'd laugh if Solas actually ended up being hot in the game.  Through some divine miracle.)

 

I see.  :|

 

[Allan Schumacher]

This seems as good of a thread as any as it's a romance themed thread, but I was talking with some friends and BioWare games came up, and we actually wondered "How would people react if there were no romances?" (But presumably replaced with some other type of writing content instead)

 

I'm not saying DAI has no romances, but I'm just curious how many people simply expect them to be there, and if they weren't there, would be more than a little disappointed.

[Allan Schumacher]

Romance ain't the reason I buy the game. They just make it feel more complete. Interaction with your companions is a huge part of the series and it seems only natural to develop feelings and act on them, including romantically, if that suits the story and the player's feeling for a character.

 

Not to just pick out your response specifically, but this came up from Ukki and I think Darth Krytie touched on it as well.  Mes comments on the emotional connection.

 

I absolutely agree that the characters are a huge part of BioWare (they are my own favourite parts), and that romances contribute a non-trivial aspect of it because it's part of how we learn about the characters.  I was more musing that, if there were another way to convey emotion and exploration of very interesting characters, how much that would work.  I mean, I can't speak in definite terms on what that might be, meaning it might be a lot easier said than done.

 

The thing that made me think about this is my favourite game, which has my favourite party members, is a game that only really had 1 (and maybe 1/2) romances that were, in terms of "romantic" aspects very, very brief.  But with absolutely fantastic and empathic characters.  The game is Planescape Torment, and each character came across as so interesting and it's probably the game that made me want to make games!  So that in and of itself is biased, since I clearly have an affinity for this style of game.

 

 

There was the floating skull, Morte, that had been one of your more faithful allies right from the start, and who seemed to always want to help you out but you learn that he omits some information from you, and when the opportunity comes for you to punish him for that while in the realm of Baator itself, you learn just what type of character he is (and define what type of character you are) based on what you decide to do for him.

 

There's the warrior, Dak'kon, stoic and humble, seeking to *know* the world and ultimately find greater understanding, who has also been loyal to you, but ultimately finds himself stuck in a debt that he thought he could honor, but is permanently trapped because he knows of no way to actually pay off that debt... he has followed this debt around to go places and do things he'd rather not.

 

Annah, the Tiefling thief, growing up in the slums with a mentor/father figure who is cared, which she is mostly grateful for because he was a jerk to her mostly, but at the same time was that constant presence and the uncertainty of knowing where to go with him no longer able to exert any more influence on him.

 

Fall From Grace, the chaste succubus.  She sets up a brothel of intellectual lusts, creating a place for people to find the ultimate enjoyment of their mind.

 

Vhailor, a being so consumed with justice that he is able to sustain his life beyond his years as his conviction keeps him alive.  You can use this conviction as a tool, or even convince him that his endless pursuit of justice is inconsequential, compromising his conviction and resulting in him blinking out of existence altogether.

 

 

I liked it, with some of my favourite characters... and only Annah is remotely romanceable and it's a brief couple of dialogues.  So could that content be replaced and people would still enjoy it?
 

 

I feel I should add that I know a few gay individuals who avoid popular media altogether and are only interested in books, films and videogames that have homosexuals as protagonists, or at least as major secondary characters.

 

By cutting same-sex romance out of their games, Bioware would definitely be missing out on at least a few sales.

 

Sure.  Though it could be argued that any decision could potentially cost a few sales.  Do you think that those people would still be strictly opposed if their views on personifying a gay person was still present, it's simply a game where no opportunity for romance presents itself?  Would the inclusion of positive LGBTQ content still help supplement that?

 

 

The writers have a word budget.

 

So no romance content would likely mean more dialogue in general. Likely more (regular) companion interaction.

 

Pretty much.  The content would be replaced with something else.  Since it'd be a removal of some companion interaction, I think it's reasonable to assume that it's in some way replaced with other companion interaction, just not of the romance variety.  Perhaps more/longer companion quest lines, a variety of depth to friendships (or rivalries) and stuff like that.

[Allan Schumacher]

Quite a few would disagree

 

Well, if it bothers you so much, you can simply opt not to pursue romances.

 

I have actually opted to do the opposite (so long as romances are offered).

 

Besides, it wouldn't be a worthwhile discussion without differing opinions. Please allow me to play devil's advocate.

 

 

I'd prefer if we not get into a war about whether or not romances have value, or whatnot.  This is a thought experiment and I'm hoping to gain some perspectives outside of my own and would prefer to not see things get too sidetracked.

 

I left the question open ended in large part so that people could imagine WHAT they might find as alternative companion interaction as appealing.

[Allan Schumacher]

This is key. Often, additional character development and interaction is reserved for the romance arcs, which makes perfect sense. They only have so many writers, so much time, and so much money, after all. YMMV here, but what I want is to get to know my companions as people. The fade to black sex scene? Not so much.

 

I think this is what I was wondering.  I mean, if someone gets a pixel crush on a character (for lack of a better term, is there a better one?) on an NPC in the game, I can see romance being a lot more essential.

 

But if romances are interesting because they help with character development, does that mean that if character development can be presented in another way, would that still be acceptable?

 

 

 

 

I think I'd still feel a loss, given that this sexuality-specific romance options can't be found elsewhere. I don't think I'd feel the loss as much if that weren't the case.

 

Are you referring to the circumstances of the loss, because this type of content (romanceable content) isn't really available with other games not made by BioWare?

[Allan Schumacher]

Ya know... I think it would be acceptable. I'm having trouble seeing how though

 

That's fair and in large part why I didn't explicitly state an alternative is because I couldn't think of one when I wrote the initial query.

 

 

- you mean like instead of romances we'd have access to more fleshed out platonic friendships?

 

That's one alternative.  I think the only suitable replacement would be stuff that still explores the characters further, as that's what romances do.  Getting to know the characters, and becoming friends with them and having that friendship mean something still seems like it'd be an interesting space.  My favourite "relationships" in the Mass Effect games were both Garrus and Tali, in large part I feel because I grew with the characters and felt as though a friendship with Shepard was really established - but I romanced Ashley.  Liara to a lesser extent too.

 

 

And Planescape: Torment it really seemed like I had become friends with all those characters I mentioned (Except Vhailor), where I cared for Annah in her uncertainty, helping to guide her through it. 

 

Dak'kon showed me the Circle of Zerthimon which presented intellectual challenges that could be unlocked when you truly understood the previous circle... and by the end I had grown to understand it so well that I was now unlocking circles that he was not able to reach himself.  Initially it was a shock and wound to him, but ultimately I was able to discuss with him what his failing were with understanding the circle.  Given that his sword power was also a function of his state of mind, this whole interaction resulted in him learning and gaining an appreciation he never had, and his sword became much more powerful... it was fueled with a contentment and satisfaction he had never experienced in his life before, and all because he and I worked together to help understand the circle.

 

Dak'kon is one of my all time favourite NPCs because I loved this journey, and at the time it was a journey experienced almost exclusively in conversation dialogues.

 

 

 

Well, I think I wouldn't feel let down by BioWare if they chose not to do romances in a game if I could find other companies that did it with the same level of depth and care...I've played games, BioWare games, even, that had no romances or the merest hints of them, and enjoyed them. But now that I have played games with this particular content, to lose it...or even perceive that it has been lost in some future game (with no promises made to have it) would be difficult because it really isn't out there in any meaningful way in other games, yet.

 

That's fair and it's perfectly valid thing to say.  I agree, losing something that you're fond of just lets you know you're missing that thing.  Once you've tasted it, losing its taste is unfortunate.  It sounds like the only way to really make this work as a positive for you is if whatever the New Thing™ was was actually better (and we just didn't realize we were missing it).  Which may not be possible, as it's fair that a romance provides a decidedly unique aspect on a relationship, that even becoming great friends with someone doesn't have.  I can be great friends with presumably more people, but am only really interested in being romantically involved with a single person at any given time.

[Allan Schumacher]

There'd have to be a lot of it. I'm talking major characters, if not the protagonist himself. And they would absolutely reject it if they thought you were leaning on stereotypes or mocking homosexuals.

 

I assume that leaning on stereotypes and mocking homosexuals would probably still be a deal breaker, even if you could be in a homosexual romance in general?

 

 

I think it goes without saying that if the content isn't appropriate and is disrespectful, it won't matter.  And yes, I'd consider it part of major characters (and in fact I did mention that the player would still be free to express a particular orientation, and have the game world acknowledge it.  It's just that within the context of the game's narrative no romance would occur).

[Allan Schumacher]

Leaning on the characters-as-people thing again, one of my favorite things that happened among the companions in DA2 was when Isabela and Fenris got together. That really worked for me on a storytelling level because the characters displayed agency outside of the influences of the player-character or the machinations of the player. They did what real people do: hook up, regardless of how that might make you feel. That was fantastic and was an occasion for me to learn more about them as individuals.

 

Similarly, Aveline displayed agency in choosing Donnic for herself but involved the player-character. Again, this is another instance of characters acting as real people by displaying agency in their actions. Or when Fenris heads to Lowtown to play cards with Varric, or when Sebastian comes over just to visit your dog, or when Isabela and Aveline fight horribly for 5 years and end up laughing over a bottle of wine in Aveline's office.

 

I would rather have 20 more instances like those than passionate kissing in a tent while Schmooples squeals in the background.

 

DA2's characters are some of my favourites for many of the reasons you listed here

[Allan Schumacher]

Nicely put, but I'd wonder if the reaction to "a game without romance" would be the same as "no game with romance".
 
Personally, I would be fine if BioWare would mix it up (at least when supplemented with other compelling relationship material), but I still think the romance content has value—it's a perfectly reasonable way to expand character relationships, even if it's not necessary.
 
Going back to one of my earlier snarks, I'd be fine if a BioWare game had some other killer gameplay mechanic but light or no combat, but no BioWare game ever again having combat? No, thanks.

 
I don't think the content is valueless.  I'm just curious if its existence at this point is almost considered "mandatory" for a BioWare game to have.  It is a particularly unique way to explore a relationship, I agree.  I'm certainly not suggesting that this scenario means "BioWare never puts a romance in their game ever again!"
 
 

This more applies to same sex romances, but they can also allow the player to learn about themselves. Over at the Dragon Age Confessions tumblr there are plenty of confessions about how romancing specific characters caused the confessor to question or realize their own sexuality. The availibilty of romances in the games provides a safe space to explore same sex attraction. Personally, I'm asexual, but romancing Leliana helped me discover that I do have some romantic attraction to other women. That is something that can't be replaced if the word budget for romance went to more platonic interaction.

 
Very interesting point.  Anecdotally, one of my favourite parts of ME3 was when Steve made a reference to his husband.  To Allan, the guy living in 2012, it was "Whoa!  Wasn't expecting that!"  But to Shepard it didn't even register.  It rang home the idea of "You know, it'd be cool if I reacted like that."  Although I don't know if self discovery about sexuality need require specifically romance content.  I wonder if there are other ways (and other things) that players can learn about themselves.
 
 

Yes, I would say so.
 
But considering that most games (even games that don't have a custom character or interactive narrative) still feature some kind of heterosexual romance plot, the lack of romance for a homosexual protagonist or major character would definitely stick out and be eyeroll-worthy.
 
There's already a lot of media where characters are ostensibly homosexual, but they either don't act affectionate with their partners, or their partners are mysteriously absent.

 
Fair enough.  I think it's interesting because I get the impression that you feel the game itself would still feature romance, and based on precedent there's a greater chance it'd be heterosexual, when it wasn't something I was thinking would be the case.  It'd also be an interesting stand point where the only romance of significance came between two characters that happened to be gay.  Or perhaps no significant romance story arcs exist at all, which still doesn't preclude the gamer from learning about other characters and that they are in relationships of all kinds.
 

Personally, I feel like that  ends up running a dangerous line aka 'the dumbledore  problem'. Dude's totally gay, but without 'proof' everyone sees him as straight. I'll admit that I'm one of those ignorant few who didn't realize Master Wade and Herran were a couple. I figured Wade was gay because he fits a certain stereotype but ...thats it. And, I'm not complaining about that character per se, but without relying on stereotypes or romance how do you actively convey that a Npc is gay or bi in a way that is definitive enough to not start a zillion 'is such and such gay' threads throughout the forums?

I agree that's an issue.  But lets say that Steve wasn't romanceable in ME3, but he still makes the remark about losing his husband.  That scene sticks out for me for the reasons I detailed above.  I didn't romance Steve, nor even seek to romance him, but it certainly made me go "Oh hey, here's a guy who is gay and was in what sounds like it was a positive relationship."  Would anything more really need to be done?  Samantha's was more cryptic I think, and I don't think it would work quite as well without some altering as without anyone propositioning her I don't know if it ever comes up.  Veronica in FONV is also someone that is a lesbian, and upon getting to know her she makes a reference to a lover, and not much later points out it's a she.  I remember going "Oh hey, Veronica is a lesbian!" in a similar way that I did with Steve.  For a heterosexual male, it comes across as interesting and provides visibility for me.  I wonder if the effects are different for other people.

 

Now there's problematic aspects of Steve and Veronica, since it's a tragic relationship.  I know, speaking for myself, there's that degree of impetus that "If I'm going to add that content in, in order to make it not just seem like 'oh look gay people' I feel a need to dress it up in some sort of conflict/drama."  Which is maybe what we need to not do.  I'm not a writer or designer, so it's also something I don't have as much experience with.  The settings (post apocalyptic and galactic war) are possibly situations that make this type of narrative seem more obvious (again, issues with experience maybe?).
 

and crap I totally wasn't gonna go here buuut....also, by removing romances, especially for LGB gamers, you're removing a uniquely safe place where they can see themselves represented and through these romances be allowed to explore things that they may not be able to safely do in real life. Its certainly not a games job to provide this, no, but the ability to create this environment is unique to gaming and quite powerful. And so, removing this content to instead have LGB content that maybe is more stagnant or non reactive (content not utilizing the uniqueness of the gaming format, I guess), would be disappointing. Personally.

 

Admittedly, this is something that I can only ever get a partial understanding of, since it's not something that I have ever experienced, nor a feeling that I'll probably have to experience.  I have wondered how the demographic breaks down for LGBTQ gamers in terms of their expressed approval of "the ability to romance characters is important for me, please keep it in," and the challenge for me is to step out of my world view and experiences and try to understand how others see things.  I think there's still part of me that digests the challenge that comes from my orientation being seen as default.  So it's not uncommon for me to trip up and wonder "How explicit does it need to be? It doesn't need to be explicit for me."  Which isn't really accurate.  Maybe it's the ideal (a future world where LGBTQ distinction isn't as necessary because it's just people loving other people and everyone being okay with that?), but that's not the case now.

 

That said, does the LGBTQ content require an actual romance in order to be respectfully done and reacted to in game?  It definitely has the advantage of being pretty slam dunk in terms of its unambiguity: you're romantically involved with someone and identify with a particular orientation to incorporate that.

 

I mean, there are lots of games that simply do not have romance in them.  Does this mean that these games are innately discriminating against LGBTQ gamers, or are there ways to allow LGBTQ gamers to create characters that allow them a safe environment to express their views?  My lack of experience, and until recently even the overall awareness of the topic, means I need a bit more perspective.  Part of me is curious, because until BG2 came along the idea of a romance existing at all in a game wasn't something I really considered either.

 

 

And don't worry about your post length

[Allan Schumacher]

Basically, there are ways to make the game respectful to LGBT players without the romances, but the romances are an extra little step that offer a unique experience that is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to get elsewhere.

 

I am concerned about sampling bias since I'm in this thread, and on the BSN, but is there the notion that LGBTQ players are more likely supportive of the romances for this reason, and as such also find themselves having the most to lose if BioWare were to make a game that had no romances?

[Allan Schumacher]

Possibly true! I know that almost all my lbgt friends play  BioWare games (and some don't play other games nearly as much). And I know that I met a lot of lbgt friends through BSN/BW related tumblr blogs/LJ and they primarily play these games. And a common comment I see is that they wish there was more content out there at large or least not SWM-dudebro games. A lot of people saying it was the first time they ever felt acknowledged by a game. The excitement and all that being able to finally roleplay yourself....

 

Even my daughter, who is 15 and a lesbian, finds herself watching me as I play and was so happy to see the content because none of her games allow it and she wishes that it did.

 

Romance is definitely explicit and not ambiguous, which is a strength for representation.  I'm about to crash as I stayed up too late talking about this... (<.<) but I do have two questions!

 

1) Do you think it'd be an additional challenge to try to depict a game world that would allow LGBTQ people to find this level of acknowledgement and ability to roleplay yourself, without the existence of romantic fulfillment?

 

2) What other ways can you think of (if any) that could come across as positive way for LGBTQ.  (Even if we return to reality where romances exist, I'm still interested to hear your response because if we can add more to this than simply the romanceable characters, it's probably not a bad thing).

[Allan Schumacher]

In terms of it creating the specific safe space for identity exploration that I'm referring to, I would say so? For context, I'll be ...maybe too honest haha, Dragon Age 2 probably helped me arrive at the conclusion about how incredibly gay I was a few years earlier then I would have if I hadn't been playing Bioware games for years haha.

This has come up a few times, and I'm glad I went down this discussion because it's a perspective that I am completely oblivious to, so thanks a ton to all that have shared this.

Certainly a game not having romances isn't discriminating. But as Darth Krytie mentions, there are many micro ways in which things get seen as straight, and thats not a game or media exclusive thing, thats just a societal thing right now..../always...I wouldn't say then that any one game is discriminating per se. The Uncharted Series has romance in it, and it isn't discriminating that Nate happens to be straight. Same with the fact that all of the Assassins in the Assassins Creed series who have had romantic interests have had opposite sex interests. Same with the pro tag of Far Cry 3 who has a girlfriend etc etc. On there own none of these are a problem, its the build up, over and over that creates an atmosphere of exclusion. And then you have rather upsetting LGBT inclusion, like The Witcher 2, where either path exposes you to a gay sorcerer/witch who also happens to be a bad guy...that game...really upsetting on the representation front imo...or Mars War Log, created by the people who are doing the upcoming Bound By Flame. That game starts you off with a poorly written way too long almost rape in prison bathroom scene, where the bad guy is this chortling rotund man, literally named Fatso.
 
So one nice thing about Bioware is, I could be a guy romancing Fenris who also happens to murder everyone I meet or I can be a girl and romance Isabela and be sickeningly sweet to everyone I see. Or vice versa.

I cut some of the quote for length reasons, but is the inclusion of romance fulfillment* a positive because it acts somewhat as a guarantee that the LGBTQ depiction is more positive, and an assurance that the content exists?

*I say "romance fulfillment" in the sense that "a romance arc starts and some level of confirmation that the PC and the character are definitely in a relationship" as opposed to say, "romance expression" in that the setting allows the expression of interest to exist, including from the PC, but the exploration of romantic content doesn't go much beyond there within the context of the game. So I could freely share and express that my protagonist is gay/bi/straight, even have discussions about romance, but the act of pursuing and engaging in a relationship with another character is beyond the scope of the game.

[Allan Schumacher]

There are other ways, too. Subtle things. Being allowed to not autoflirt with opposite genders. Being able to flirt with same sex genders. Those types of things. (Even if the flirting leads no where.) If the premise of the game is avenging a lost loved one, allow the protag to pick if they lost a boy/girlfriend. Other things like being able to refer to a past relationship and allow you to choose the gender of who you were with.
 
Also, if there's no romance, allow for fully developed companions with a broad spectrum of sexuality that is explicit. (it doesn't need to be full-on sex, but hey this is my girlfriend or hey that's my husband is fine)  And make them complex. Not just the flamboyant dude who made your armour. More like Celene.
 
Seriously, one of the hardest things that throws me out of roleplaying a male gay character is the way the camera lovingly follows every square inch of Samara's breasts or Miranda's ass. And not nearly enough on James or Steve or Kaidan. Just tweaking that a bit so I don't feel like I'm perving when I ought not would be excellent.
 
I can probably think of more when I've thought on it.

Thanks a ton for sharing this. I actually find it useful for myself because it places a bit more focus on "ways to share this type of content that Allan may overlook because it's just stuff he doesn't think of." Especially the first paragraph stated!

I do think that more neutral depictions of characters in non-romantic situations would be ideal as well.

[Allan Schumacher]

I  frequently roleplay as characters who are bisexual and occasionally homosexual in MMO's and similar games where you can create a character but there is no actual in-game situation where their sexuality is relevant or expressed in any way. In my mind the only thing you really need to play an LGBTQ character is for the game to let the player create their own character and to not ever put the player character in a situation or give them dialogue that could contradict the players view of their character.

I agree that that can work. I think it misses the acknowledgement aspects, however, which people can appreciate. Even heterosexuals.

I really think the best way to make a game come across as positive for LGBTQ people is to include romance between people of the same gender in the game world, between NPC's or in side-quests. It's a small, simple thing, but something that can really make a game stand out for me.

I think stuff like this goes a long way for still depicting a safe environment, and would probably be essential for some people if we were to make a game that had no genuine romance fulfillment.

[Allan Schumacher]

I'd be disappointed. I mean, that's why I got into Bioware games in the first place: I heard about Liara, and I was overjoyed to hear that a game actually allowed F/F romance in it, with the main character! So the romance in the Bioware games kinda feels almost as important as the plot or the characters to me, simply for that.

 

Hey that's perfectly fair, and I think it's reasonable for myself to concede that the suggestion has a degree of heterosexual privilege in its viability.

 

 

That being said, if it was replaced with some other companion-related mechanic (because that's why the romances are so beloved, I think: they give us more with these people we fight with) I would be... better? Not okay, but better. Like, a BFF mechanic instead. And it would have to be with all the companions because anyone can be a BFF.

 

Agreed.  I've shared in the thread already, but just to reaffirm it, I think that any content that comes in would still have to be content that develops and fleshes out the companion characters some more.  I do feel companions are probably BioWare's biggest strength.  Though I can certainly understand trepidation because there's no guarantee that the replaced content would be as satisfying, and there's something comfortable about knowing what you're going to get and knowing that that thing tends to work.

[Allan Schumacher]

I've been a gamer since the mid-80's when I bought an NES with my allowance money

Hah! Me too. At $3 per week, it took a while
 
 

So to summarize my very long post:  Would I buy a Bioware game without romance?  Of course I would.  Would I be disappointed that there were no romances?  Yes, because unfortunately, there aren't many other studios willing to support us in that way.  I hope that this message wasn't too long or too sappy.

It definitely presents a situation that, were we to not do a romance, we'd still have to be mindful of those we'd potentially alienate by their removal and be cognizant of how we could still provide some of those aspects for those people. Which is why I'm pretty happy that I brought this up because it helps myself remain cognizant of it!


Cheers and thanks for sharing

[Allan Schumacher]

but it's not out of any animosity like "no i hate you now that you dont have my thing", it's just, it wouldn't have that extra draw for me anymore. if i had a hue disposable income, then sure, i'd buy it, why not give it a try? but as it stands i don't, so i'm a bit limited.

 

Hey it's fair, and I know that people that do appreciate romances come under fire if they consider romances to be a significant factor in why they decide to buy a game, which isn't fair at all.

 

We all have our reasons for wanting to experience a game and those reasons are yours and valid for you.

 

 

I mean, a post was made earlier (perhaps jokingly, perhaps not) that this discussion is "scary."  I already have an idea as to why, and it's probably because that person really enjoys the romance content and values it highly with their BioWare experience!

[Allan Schumacher]

Like, they don't actually have to say "I am a homosexual". There's literally dozens of ways to demonstrate homosexual inclination without using the word "homosexual" (which doesn't seem to even exist in Thedas). You could start, for example, by having the gay couples actually act like couples. You know, the way all the straight ones do.
 
*snip*
 
You know what? Yes. Yes it does have to be in your face, because heterosexuality is in my face literally all of the time. And really, if you think gay couples behaving exactly the same way straight couples do is "in your face", then frankly, you deserve to be made uncomfortable.

 
Just curious, what types of behaviours are you referring to? Because even among heterosexuals there's a lot of behaviour I consider too "in my face" that I don't really appreciate seeing publicly either.

The reason I ask is because defining what it means to "hint" at a relationship seems pretty important, because I could see someone construing an imagine of two men holding hands as a hint, even if it's a particularly obvious one. And certainly not a degree of "snooping" around.

[Allan Schumacher]

There is some degree of double standard about what "In your face" means. I remember in Guild Wars 2 a random NPC asks you to save his (male) lover: and of course you had the obligatory post complaining about that being too on your face. Hints to sexuality need to make sense in the moment is what's really important. Just like it's fine for a man to mention his wife, he should also be able to casually mention his husband. People shouldn't outright mention their sexuality unless it makes sense though.

 

I agree that one's experiences will make things seem more "in your face."  I mean, Steve referencing his husband was surprising to me.  It wouldn't have been if he had mentioned a wife.

 

I also think that people have a tendency to overestimate the occurrence of particular issues like this, simply because their lack of prevalence makes them noteworthy in my mind.  If there was another person making a reference to his husband in ME3, I'd expect myself to be "Whoa, there's a lot of this stuff here!"  Even though every other character could make reference to their heterosexual partner and I'd probably not notice.

 

 

I think stuff like this is where challenge comes in in communicating, because I think multiple occurrence of someone saying "I am gay" would be as jarring as someone saying "I am not gay" and so forth - both would come across as "in my face."  But if people default towards heteronormative perceptions, is it sufficient for it to not be explicitly mentioned in such a way?  Hugging was mentioned, but I could see how that could be construed as ambiguous.  Context would be important.

 

Perhaps it's kind of similar in that yes LGBTQ expression in other ways is possible, but by having it as a romance it makes it explicit without any ambiguity.

 

 

Yes, if two adults are holding hands, I would take that as fairly explicit indication that they were in a romantic relationship.

 

So the trick about language is, do you disapprove if I consider that an appropriate and respectful hint/clue towards someone being in a relationship, but not something explicit?