2090 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth Krytie]

 

Are you referring to the circumstances of the loss, because this type of content isn't really available with other games not made by BioWare?

 

Well, I think I wouldn't feel let down by BioWare if they chose not to do romances in a game if I could find other companies that did it with the same level of depth and care...I've played games, BioWare games, even, that had no romances or the merest hints of them, and enjoyed them. But now that I have played games with this particular content, to lose it...or even perceive that it has been lost in some future game (with no promises made to have it) would be difficult because it really isn't out there in any meaningful way in other games, yet.

[devSin]

I think this is what I was wondering.  I mean, if someone gets a pixel crush on a character (for lack of a better term, is there a better one?) on an NPC in the game, I can see romance being a lot more essential.
 
But if romances are interesting because they help with character development, does that mean that if character development can be presented in another way, would that still be acceptable?

The evidence is already there for it (see Cullen). Just because there's not an explicit romance doesn't diminish from the apparent appeal, nor the interest in the character. That indicates romance not actually being essential, even when it's desired.

 

I think it comes from the expectation (it's a BioWare game) and the environment (there are characters in the game that you can romance, so why not this one). But a character of sufficient appeal and sufficient depth (according to individual taste) can still satisfy a person, even if the actual romance needs to happen in fan-fiction.

 

If you actually managed to overcome the expectation, I doubt the reaction would be as severe as you seem to fear it would be.

[Mockingword]

Sure.  Though it could be argued that any decision could potentially cost a few sales.  Do you think that those people would still be strictly opposed if their views on personifying a gay person was still present, it's simply a game where no opportunity for romance presents itself?  Would the inclusion of positive LGBTQ content still help supplement that?

There'd have to be a lot of it. I'm talking major characters, if not the protagonist himself. And they would absolutely reject it if they thought you were leaning on stereotypes or mocking homosexuals.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Ah well, might as well throw in my two cents.
 
I don't really care about romances that much in their current state, imo they're a shallow mechanic that attempts to add depth to the game and the world. Not saying that I don't enjoy them but as they are it's prettty much this: There's a character you like, you talk to them and then it's suddenly


The romance mechanic itself should have some more depth to it. This could be achieved by putting more barriers inbetween the LI and the PC like previous choices made. Some more variations between romance and not, party banter etc. would be nice as well.

In short: Go hard or go home, don't half-ass it

Liked if for no other reason than the hilarious James May gif. 

[Rusty Sandusky]

Liked if for no other reason than the hilarious James May gif. 

I appreciate that you value my opinion highly

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I think in some cases, the romances have a lot of impact, and add plenty of depth to the overall story.. but it doesn't work for every character.

 

DA2 actually does it better than DAO imo. Merrill, Isabela, Anders, Fenris.. they all have a turning point in the story that makes the romance feel "important" to the plot. DAO only really pulls this off with Morrigan and Alistair. As much as I like Zev and Leliana, the romances feel like side stories. Not tied to main plot.

Fenris seemed the least tied to the plot, to me. What made him feel like he was more a part of the plot to you than Leliana and Zevran? Just curious. 

[devSin]

Indeed. I love Fenris, but he still feels like he somehow wandered into DA2 completely by accident.

[Allan Schumacher]

Ya know... I think it would be acceptable. I'm having trouble seeing how though

 

That's fair and in large part why I didn't explicitly state an alternative is because I couldn't think of one when I wrote the initial query.

 

 

- you mean like instead of romances we'd have access to more fleshed out platonic friendships?

 

That's one alternative.  I think the only suitable replacement would be stuff that still explores the characters further, as that's what romances do.  Getting to know the characters, and becoming friends with them and having that friendship mean something still seems like it'd be an interesting space.  My favourite "relationships" in the Mass Effect games were both Garrus and Tali, in large part I feel because I grew with the characters and felt as though a friendship with Shepard was really established - but I romanced Ashley.  Liara to a lesser extent too.

 

 

And Planescape: Torment it really seemed like I had become friends with all those characters I mentioned (Except Vhailor), where I cared for Annah in her uncertainty, helping to guide her through it. 

 

Dak'kon showed me the Circle of Zerthimon which presented intellectual challenges that could be unlocked when you truly understood the previous circle... and by the end I had grown to understand it so well that I was now unlocking circles that he was not able to reach himself.  Initially it was a shock and wound to him, but ultimately I was able to discuss with him what his failing were with understanding the circle.  Given that his sword power was also a function of his state of mind, this whole interaction resulted in him learning and gaining an appreciation he never had, and his sword became much more powerful... it was fueled with a contentment and satisfaction he had never experienced in his life before, and all because he and I worked together to help understand the circle.

 

Dak'kon is one of my all time favourite NPCs because I loved this journey, and at the time it was a journey experienced almost exclusively in conversation dialogues.

 

 

 

Well, I think I wouldn't feel let down by BioWare if they chose not to do romances in a game if I could find other companies that did it with the same level of depth and care...I've played games, BioWare games, even, that had no romances or the merest hints of them, and enjoyed them. But now that I have played games with this particular content, to lose it...or even perceive that it has been lost in some future game (with no promises made to have it) would be difficult because it really isn't out there in any meaningful way in other games, yet.

 

That's fair and it's perfectly valid thing to say.  I agree, losing something that you're fond of just lets you know you're missing that thing.  Once you've tasted it, losing its taste is unfortunate.  It sounds like the only way to really make this work as a positive for you is if whatever the New Thing™ was was actually better (and we just didn't realize we were missing it).  Which may not be possible, as it's fair that a romance provides a decidedly unique aspect on a relationship, that even becoming great friends with someone doesn't have.  I can be great friends with presumably more people, but am only really interested in being romantically involved with a single person at any given time.

[Allan Schumacher]

There'd have to be a lot of it. I'm talking major characters, if not the protagonist himself. And they would absolutely reject it if they thought you were leaning on stereotypes or mocking homosexuals.

 

I assume that leaning on stereotypes and mocking homosexuals would probably still be a deal breaker, even if you could be in a homosexual romance in general?

 

 

I think it goes without saying that if the content isn't appropriate and is disrespectful, it won't matter.  And yes, I'd consider it part of major characters (and in fact I did mention that the player would still be free to express a particular orientation, and have the game world acknowledge it.  It's just that within the context of the game's narrative no romance would occur).

[keightdee]

But if romances are interesting because they help with character development, does that mean that if character development can be presented in another way, would that still be acceptable?

 

Leaning on the characters-as-people thing again, one of my favorite things that happened among the companions in DA2 was when Isabela and Fenris got together. That really worked for me on a storytelling level because the characters displayed agency outside of the influences of the player-character or the machinations of the player. They did what real people do: hook up, regardless of how that might make you feel. That was fantastic and was an occasion for me to learn more about them as individuals.

 

Similarly, Aveline displayed agency in choosing Donnic for herself but involved the player-character. Again, this is another instance of characters acting as real people by displaying agency in their actions. Or when Fenris heads to Lowtown to play cards with Varric, or when Sebastian comes over just to visit your dog, or when Isabela and Aveline fight horribly for 5 years and end up laughing over a bottle of wine in Aveline's office.

 

I would rather have 20 more instances like those than passionate kissing in a tent while Schmooples squeals in the background.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I appreciate that you value my opinion highly

Hey, I said "If for no other reason" and got it boosted to the next page.

[devSin]

That's fair and it's perfectly valid thing to say.  I agree, losing something that you're fond of just lets you know you're missing that thing.  Once you've tasted it, losing its taste is unfortunate.  It sounds like the only way to really make this work as a positive for you is if whatever the New Thing™ was was actually better (and we just didn't realize we were missing it).  Which may not be possible, as it's fair that a romance provides a decidedly unique aspect on a relationship, that even becoming great friends with someone doesn't have.  I can be great friends with presumably more people, but am only really interested in being romantically involved with a single person at any given time.

Nicely put, but I'd wonder if the reaction to "a game without romance" would be the same as "no game with romance".

 

Personally, I would be fine if BioWare would mix it up (at least when supplemented with other compelling relationship material), but I still think the romance content has value—it's a perfectly reasonable way to expand character relationships, even if it's not necessary.

 

Going back to one of my earlier snarks, I'd be fine if a BioWare game had some other killer gameplay mechanic but light or no combat, but no BioWare game ever again having combat? No, thanks.

[Veriond]

This more applies to same sex romances, but they can also allow the player to learn about themselves. Over at the Dragon Age Confessions tumblr there are plenty of confessions about how romancing specific characters caused the confessor to question or realize their own sexuality. The availibilty of romances in the games provides a safe space to explore same sex attraction. Personally, I'm asexual, but romancing Leliana helped me discover that I do have some romantic attraction to other women. That is something that can't be replaced if the word budget for romance went to more platonic interaction.

[Mockingword]

I assume that leaning on stereotypes and mocking homosexuals would probably still be a deal breaker, even if you could be in a homosexual romance in general?

 

 

I think it goes without saying that if the content isn't appropriate and is disrespectful, it won't matter.  And yes, I'd consider it part of major characters (and in fact I did mention that the player would still be free to express a particular orientation, and have the game world acknowledge it.  It's just that within the context of the game's narrative no romance would occur).

Yes, I would say so.

 

But considering that most games (even games that don't have a custom character or interactive narrative) still feature some kind of heterosexual romance plot, the lack of romance for a homosexual protagonist or major character would definitely stick out and be eyeroll-worthy.

 

There's already a lot of media where characters are ostensibly homosexual, but they either don't act affectionate with their partners, or their partners are mysteriously absent.

[JB322]

I think romances are a special topping to a delicious cake that BioWare provides us out of  the kindness of their hearts. I would be sorry to see them leave, I cannot say that it would be a deal breaker for me though. I do hope it's not the case in the future.

[devSin]

Leaning on the characters-as-people thing again, one of my favorite things that happened among the companions in DA2 was when Isabela and Fenris got together. That really worked for me on a storytelling level because the characters displayed agency outside of the influences of the player-character or the machinations of the player. They did what real people do: hook up, regardless of how that might make you feel. That was fantastic and was an occasion for me to learn more about them as individuals.

 

Similarly, Aveline displayed agency in choosing Donnic for herself but involved the player-character. Again, this is another instance of characters acting as real people by displaying agency in their actions. Or when Fenris heads to Lowtown to play cards with Varric, or when Sebastian comes over just to visit your dog, or when Isabela and Aveline fight horribly for 5 years and end up laughing over a bottle of wine in Aveline's office.

 

I would rather have 20 more instances like those than passionate kissing in a tent while Schmooples squeals in the background.

I think there's a danger of going too far here, however. (I actually think DA2 already crossed the threshold of making the player a passive observer in what is billed as their own adventure.)

 

I agree that Aveline is amazing and her content is near perfect, but if everything becomes simply a window into the lives of other characters, I don't see that as being anywhere near as enjoyable as the personal connection you can develop with the characters you're intended to have relationships with.

 

If that were the sole replacement for the romance plots, I think I would ultimately be disappointed by their absence much more than if the content specifically focused on the relationship with the player.

[oceanicsurvivor]

This seems as good of a thread as any as it's a romance themed thread, but I was talking with some friends and BioWare games came up, and we actually wondered "How would people react if there were no romances?" (But presumably replaced with some other type of writing content instead)

 

I'm not saying DAI has no romances, but I'm just curious how many people simply expect them to be there, and if they weren't there, would be more than a little disappointed.

 

Awakening was, I believe, 40 bucks at launch? maybe more? And it had no romances. So, Bioware has done that to an extent? (It's not a full release I understand, but it was a sizable expansion). When I eventually got around to playing it   I did really enjoy it. So, yes, I would probably still buy a Bioware game without romances (at least once), but I'd certainly be bummed that a 'staple' of Bioware games was missing.
 

Bioware's characters have always been its biggest strength to me. And I love that it takes big classic sci-fi and fantasy stories and lets you play through them, down to having ya know, a romance subplot. Just like any big summer blockbuster, that plotline isn't THE focus of the story, but when done well, it adds a great layer of emotional impact. This gives the Warden/Hawke/Shepard something/someone tangible to fight for, beyond 'I must save the entire world. all of it, in its infiniteness that I can't truly comprehend'. You're fighting for Alistair, Garrus, Isabela, Ashley, whoever. And, at the end of ME3, when I was staring at my three options trying to pick the lesser of all evils, I was thinking about the geth, the Krogan etc yes, but it was also, 'how would Shep be able to explain X choice to Y love interest', because well, that feels like a human thing to ponder, in a massive life/universe altering moment?

 

Beyond that, for RPing, figuring out what type of a connection the PC has to each character; best friends, rivals, apathetic, romantic attraction, is valuable in fleshing out who you want the (player) character to be. Being able to have a variety of relationships with different characters (romances and non romances) is really fun and certainly adds to replayability. I would say altering relationships is a bigger replay draw to me then say, seeing what would happen if I sided with X instead of Y at the end of DA2 (same with different ME endings).

 

And, of course, I could talk pretty endlessly about Bioware and representation and the value of that haha. And I do think that is very important, but if the above criteria about it adding to the content/characters wasn't true, I don't think you would see people fighting so vehemently for that representation?

 

Not to just pick out your response specifically, but this came up from Ukki and I think Darth Krytie touched on it as well.  Mes comments on the emotional connection.

 

I absolutely agree that the characters are a huge part of BioWare (they are my own favourite parts), and that romances contribute a non-trivial aspect of it because it's part of how we learn about the characters.  I was more musing that, if there were another way to convey emotion and exploration of very interesting characters, how much that would work.  I mean, I can't speak in definite terms on what that might be, meaning it might be a lot easier said than done.

 

The thing that made me think about this is my favourite game, which has my favourite party members, is a game that only really had 1 (and maybe 1/2) romances that were, in terms of "romantic" aspects very, very brief.  But with absolutely fantastic and empathic characters.  The game is Planescape Torment, and each character came across as so interesting and it's probably the game that made me want to make games!  So that in and of itself is biased, since I clearly have an affinity for this style of game.

 

 

The original Mass Effect was only the second game I had ever played on Xbox 360, before my family got that I hadn't payed a game for years, and hadn't really given it any serious consideration as a hobby (that has...changed... to an alarming degree and I do blame that largely on you guys ).

 

That game, really only has maybe 3 romantic story 'beats' in what is a 20 to 30 hour campaign. I loved listening to Garrus muse about what the line between good and evil, and hearing Wrex talked about how royally messed up the Krogan were. But I also liked that when I was talking to Ashley, i had a different dynamic because there was the potential for attraction Shep; as I learned her backstory and kinda got a vibe of what it meant to be human over a hundred years in the future. Garrus felt like someone Shep was mentoring, Wrex like someone I didn't want to tick off if I valued my head, etc.

 

Anyways, my point in all that is that the romances feel like a tiny portion of a playthrough to me, but a significant one. And romance characters are definitely not the only characters of value and depth because a variety of relationships with the characters is what makes Bioware games so great. AND, like Planescape Torment was for you, your games have inspired many towards game creation, for many similar reasons it sounds like.

 

 

 

Sure.  Though it could be argued that any decision could potentially cost a few sales.  Do you think that those people would still be strictly opposed if their views on personifying a gay person was still present, it's simply a game where no opportunity for romance presents itself?  Would the inclusion of positive LGBTQ content still help supplement that?

 

 

Personally, I feel like that  ends up running a dangerous line aka 'the dumbledore  problem'. Dude's totally gay, but without 'proof' everyone sees him as straight. I'll admit that I'm one of those ignorant few who didn't realize Master Wade and Herran were a couple. I figured Wade was gay because he fits a certain stereotype but ...thats it. And, I'm not complaining about that character per se, but without relying on stereotypes or romance how do you actively convey that a Npc is gay or bi in a way that is definitive enough to not start a zillion 'is such and such gay' threads throughout the forums?

 

and crap I totally wasn't gonna go here buuut....also, by removing romances, especially for LGB gamers, you're removing a uniquely safe place where they can see themselves represented and through these romances be allowed to explore things that they may not be able to safely do in real life. Its certainly not a games job to provide this, no, but the ability to create this environment is unique to gaming and quite powerful. And so, removing this content to instead have LGB content that maybe is more stagnant or non reactive (content not utilizing the uniqueness of the gaming format, I guess), would be disappointing. Personally.

 

 

that got long. I'm sorry. *puts bag over head and walks away*

[werewoof]

This seems as good of a thread as any as it's a romance themed thread, but I was talking with some friends and BioWare games came up, and we actually wondered "How would people react if there were no romances?" (But presumably replaced with some other type of writing content instead)

 

I'm not saying DAI has no romances, but I'm just curious how many people simply expect them to be there, and if they weren't there, would be more than a little disappointed.

 

i'll be honest with you, i wouldn't be interested in it. maybe i'm biased because the points at which i can afford a 60+ dollar new game are few and far between, but the romance is what sets bioware's games apart for me. here's something where you can have meaningful (to me and other players on a personal level, if not integral to the story) romantic relationships with characters of the same gender, romances that involve characters caring for one another rather than just "masculine hero porks way through levels of hot babes" or "here's my marriage necklace come live at my house so i can get a rest bonus" or whatever. 

 

i don't doubt it'd still be a good game, just, i wouldn't be interested. and that's okay, we all like the games for various reasons and i don't think people who favor the romances have any less valid of viewpoints than those who favor the combat or the main storyline or whatever.

 

if it came down to "which game will i buy" and my choices were a bioware game with no romance and something i like more in general like a Fallout game, i wouldn't exactly leap at the bioware one. i don't not love the rest of dragon age but the romance is definitely what tips the scale and makes me spend my limited money on dragon age rather than on something else, make sense?

[Allan Schumacher]

Leaning on the characters-as-people thing again, one of my favorite things that happened among the companions in DA2 was when Isabela and Fenris got together. That really worked for me on a storytelling level because the characters displayed agency outside of the influences of the player-character or the machinations of the player. They did what real people do: hook up, regardless of how that might make you feel. That was fantastic and was an occasion for me to learn more about them as individuals.

 

Similarly, Aveline displayed agency in choosing Donnic for herself but involved the player-character. Again, this is another instance of characters acting as real people by displaying agency in their actions. Or when Fenris heads to Lowtown to play cards with Varric, or when Sebastian comes over just to visit your dog, or when Isabela and Aveline fight horribly for 5 years and end up laughing over a bottle of wine in Aveline's office.

 

I would rather have 20 more instances like those than passionate kissing in a tent while Schmooples squeals in the background.

 

DA2's characters are some of my favourites for many of the reasons you listed here

[Mockingword]

Personally, I feel like that  ends up running a dangerous line aka 'the dumbledore  problem'. Dude's totally gay, but without 'proof' everyone sees him as straight. I'll admit that I'm one of those ignorant few who didn't realize Master Wade and Herran were a couple. I figured Wade was gay because he fits a certain stereotype but ...thats it. And, I'm not complaining about that character per se, but without relying on stereotypes or romance how do you actively convey that a Npc is gay or bi in a way that is definitive enough to not start a zillion 'is such and such gay' threads throughout the forums?

 

and crap I totally wasn't gonna go here buuut....also, by removing romances, especially for LGB gamers, you're removing a uniquely safe place where they can see themselves represented and through these romances be allowed to explore things that they may not be able to safely do in real life. Its certainly not a games job to provide this, no, but the ability to create this environment is unique to gaming and quite powerful. And so, removing this content to instead have LGB content that maybe is more stagnant or non reactive (content not utilizing the uniqueness of the gaming format, I guess), would be disappointing. Personally.

 

 

that got long. I'm sorry. *puts bag over head and walks away*

I didn't read Wade and Herren as gay, either, so, as far as I'm concerned, they're not.

 

I don't care if a character is gay in the writer's imagination, that's worthless not only to me, but to every other gay person I know IRL. What I care about is if characters present as gay in the narrative.

 

For me to count a homosexual character as "representation", their sexuality has to be explicit and undeniable; relying on stereotypes isn't good enough, and neither is obscuring it or "hinting" at it.

 

By my criteria, Wade and Herren are not represantation, and neither are characters like Viranus Donton from Oblivion, or Bill from The Last of Us.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I actually do like it when companions develop their own relationships between each other, both platonic and romantic. That's something I like to see, but I don't want it to take the place of PC romance. I want to see the companions develop as whole people, but I want my PC to do so, also. While it's nice seeing them develop their own relationships, it's not really better than also being able to have the same experience with your PC character, imo. It's a matter of balance and I don't want to sacrifice being able to make a "whole" character as a PC to get complete companions. 

[Dutchess]

Leaning on the characters-as-people thing again, one of my favorite things that happened among the companions in DA2 was when Isabela and Fenris got together. That really worked for me on a storytelling level because the characters displayed agency outside of the influences of the player-character or the machinations of the player. They did what real people do: hook up, regardless of how that might make you feel. That was fantastic and was an occasion for me to learn more about them as individuals.

 

I did not like them hooking up very much, as I felt it raised even more questions about Fenris and his issues. Does he not suffer from memory flashbacks when he's getting it on with Isabela? And if not, why not with her and only with Hawke? Fenris is pretty damaged by his past as a slave and it takes a lot to get him to open up and explore an intimate relationship. He really does not strike me as the type for some casual sex. 

Then there is the despicable revelation about Isabela's past in one of the comics, which turn Isa into a huge hypocrite and make her sleeping with Fenris plain disgusting, imo. I think he would despise her more than Anders if he knew what she had done and would never even consider taking his spiky armor off for her. So, I'd rather not have these kind of relationships between companions if one or both of them can be romanced by the PC as well. It just muddies things. Better keep it to something like Aveline and Donnic.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I did not like them hooking up very much, as I felt it raised even more questions about Fenris and his issues. Does he not suffer from memory flashbacks when he's getting it on with Isabela? And if not, why not with her and only with Hawke? Fenris is pretty damaged by his past as a slave and it takes a lot to get him to open up and explore an intimate relationship. He really does not strike me as the type for some casual sex. 

Then there is the despicable revelation about Isabela's past in one of the comics, which turn Isa into a huge hypocrite and make her sleeping with Fenris plain disgusting, imo. I think he would despise her more than Anders if he knew what she had done and would never even consider taking his spiky armor off for her. So, I'd rather not have these kind of relationships between companions if one or both of them can be romanced by the PC as well. It just muddies things. Better keep it to something like Aveline and Donnic.

I'm not saying some of the things you're saying about Isabela/Fenris are wrong, mostly about her drowning the slaves, but how would the problems be any different if they were both characters you couldn't romance? That you can also romance them doesn't seem applicable to the actual issues with their relationship.