2090 réponses à ce sujet

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Yes, I would say so.
 
But considering that most games (even games that don't have a custom character or interactive narrative) still feature some kind of heterosexual romance plot, the lack of romance for a homosexual protagonist or major character would definitely stick out and be eyeroll-worthy.
 
There's already a lot of media where characters are ostensibly homosexual, but they either don't act affectionate with their partners, or their partners are mysteriously absent.

Speaking of romances in non rpgs, would be nice if a game did a non straight romance story for once even if it's just implied, although it would probably get hate from some people. For example, i remember some people hating on the TR reboot just because they saw Lara & Sam as more then just friends, is a shame that someone would dislike a game just for that reason.

[Allan Schumacher]

In terms of it creating the specific safe space for identity exploration that I'm referring to, I would say so? For context, I'll be ...maybe too honest haha, Dragon Age 2 probably helped me arrive at the conclusion about how incredibly gay I was a few years earlier then I would have if I hadn't been playing Bioware games for years haha.

This has come up a few times, and I'm glad I went down this discussion because it's a perspective that I am completely oblivious to, so thanks a ton to all that have shared this.

Certainly a game not having romances isn't discriminating. But as Darth Krytie mentions, there are many micro ways in which things get seen as straight, and thats not a game or media exclusive thing, thats just a societal thing right now..../always...I wouldn't say then that any one game is discriminating per se. The Uncharted Series has romance in it, and it isn't discriminating that Nate happens to be straight. Same with the fact that all of the Assassins in the Assassins Creed series who have had romantic interests have had opposite sex interests. Same with the pro tag of Far Cry 3 who has a girlfriend etc etc. On there own none of these are a problem, its the build up, over and over that creates an atmosphere of exclusion. And then you have rather upsetting LGBT inclusion, like The Witcher 2, where either path exposes you to a gay sorcerer/witch who also happens to be a bad guy...that game...really upsetting on the representation front imo...or Mars War Log, created by the people who are doing the upcoming Bound By Flame. That game starts you off with a poorly written way too long almost rape in prison bathroom scene, where the bad guy is this chortling rotund man, literally named Fatso.
 
So one nice thing about Bioware is, I could be a guy romancing Fenris who also happens to murder everyone I meet or I can be a girl and romance Isabela and be sickeningly sweet to everyone I see. Or vice versa.

I cut some of the quote for length reasons, but is the inclusion of romance fulfillment* a positive because it acts somewhat as a guarantee that the LGBTQ depiction is more positive, and an assurance that the content exists?

*I say "romance fulfillment" in the sense that "a romance arc starts and some level of confirmation that the PC and the character are definitely in a relationship" as opposed to say, "romance expression" in that the setting allows the expression of interest to exist, including from the PC, but the exploration of romantic content doesn't go much beyond there within the context of the game. So I could freely share and express that my protagonist is gay/bi/straight, even have discussions about romance, but the act of pursuing and engaging in a relationship with another character is beyond the scope of the game.

[CENIC]

If romances were cut, I would be disappointed, but I don't think I would stop buying/playing Bioware games.

Character development and agency - for both the PC and companions - is a big part of what I love about these games. Romance can be part of character development and agency. Morrigan is affected by her relationship with the Warden, whether romantic or platonic. Anders is attracted to Hawke and makes a move on his own initiative (I thought that was neat, and would like to see more instances of companions expressing interest in the player, rather than the player always having to initiate romance) Fenris and Isabela hook up if neither is romanced, and Aveline can marry Donnic (again, this is something I would like to see more of; it helps to give the impression that companions are real people, with their own lives and opinions, and not just mindless lackies of the player)

Rather than cutting romances out completely, I'd accept fewer possible love interests IF their romance subplots were even more carefully constructed. In Dragon Age Origins, Alistair and Morrigan's romance plots had far and away more plot relevance than Zevran's or Leliana's, and similarly, romancing Anders or Isabela in DA2 had a much better narrative payoff than the rest. What interested me about the romances wasn't so much the digital smooching and pillow talk, but the future narrative implications of the relationship for both the characters involved AND Thedas as a whole. Sometimes I feel like the only person who was EXTREMELY excited about the implications of a rivalmance with Sebastian in DA2!

[Allan Schumacher]

There are other ways, too. Subtle things. Being allowed to not autoflirt with opposite genders. Being able to flirt with same sex genders. Those types of things. (Even if the flirting leads no where.) If the premise of the game is avenging a lost loved one, allow the protag to pick if they lost a boy/girlfriend. Other things like being able to refer to a past relationship and allow you to choose the gender of who you were with.
 
Also, if there's no romance, allow for fully developed companions with a broad spectrum of sexuality that is explicit. (it doesn't need to be full-on sex, but hey this is my girlfriend or hey that's my husband is fine)  And make them complex. Not just the flamboyant dude who made your armour. More like Celene.
 
Seriously, one of the hardest things that throws me out of roleplaying a male gay character is the way the camera lovingly follows every square inch of Samara's breasts or Miranda's ass. And not nearly enough on James or Steve or Kaidan. Just tweaking that a bit so I don't feel like I'm perving when I ought not would be excellent.
 
I can probably think of more when I've thought on it.

Thanks a ton for sharing this. I actually find it useful for myself because it places a bit more focus on "ways to share this type of content that Allan may overlook because it's just stuff he doesn't think of." Especially the first paragraph stated!

I do think that more neutral depictions of characters in non-romantic situations would be ideal as well.

[Allan Schumacher]

I  frequently roleplay as characters who are bisexual and occasionally homosexual in MMO's and similar games where you can create a character but there is no actual in-game situation where their sexuality is relevant or expressed in any way. In my mind the only thing you really need to play an LGBTQ character is for the game to let the player create their own character and to not ever put the player character in a situation or give them dialogue that could contradict the players view of their character.

I agree that that can work. I think it misses the acknowledgement aspects, however, which people can appreciate. Even heterosexuals.

I really think the best way to make a game come across as positive for LGBTQ people is to include romance between people of the same gender in the game world, between NPC's or in side-quests. It's a small, simple thing, but something that can really make a game stand out for me.

I think stuff like this goes a long way for still depicting a safe environment, and would probably be essential for some people if we were to make a game that had no genuine romance fulfillment.

[Allan Schumacher]

I'd be disappointed. I mean, that's why I got into Bioware games in the first place: I heard about Liara, and I was overjoyed to hear that a game actually allowed F/F romance in it, with the main character! So the romance in the Bioware games kinda feels almost as important as the plot or the characters to me, simply for that.

 

Hey that's perfectly fair, and I think it's reasonable for myself to concede that the suggestion has a degree of heterosexual privilege in its viability.

 

 

That being said, if it was replaced with some other companion-related mechanic (because that's why the romances are so beloved, I think: they give us more with these people we fight with) I would be... better? Not okay, but better. Like, a BFF mechanic instead. And it would have to be with all the companions because anyone can be a BFF.

 

Agreed.  I've shared in the thread already, but just to reaffirm it, I think that any content that comes in would still have to be content that develops and fleshes out the companion characters some more.  I do feel companions are probably BioWare's biggest strength.  Though I can certainly understand trepidation because there's no guarantee that the replaced content would be as satisfying, and there's something comfortable about knowing what you're going to get and knowing that that thing tends to work.

[Allan Schumacher]

I've been a gamer since the mid-80's when I bought an NES with my allowance money

Hah! Me too. At $3 per week, it took a while
 
 

So to summarize my very long post:  Would I buy a Bioware game without romance?  Of course I would.  Would I be disappointed that there were no romances?  Yes, because unfortunately, there aren't many other studios willing to support us in that way.  I hope that this message wasn't too long or too sappy.

It definitely presents a situation that, were we to not do a romance, we'd still have to be mindful of those we'd potentially alienate by their removal and be cognizant of how we could still provide some of those aspects for those people. Which is why I'm pretty happy that I brought this up because it helps myself remain cognizant of it!


Cheers and thanks for sharing

[werewoof]

i knew there was a reason i liked you, allan, you're being very understanding here. 

 

for me as i mentioned in my previous post, there's a bias because i don't often have the extra money to buy a new game. if it comes down to a bioware game with no romance and, say, a new Fallout game, i'll probably veer towards the fallout game from the start because i'm more interested in the fallout series in its own right even though it completely lacks romance. the opportunity not just for canonically lgbtq+ characters but for my own character to be such and have meaningful romantic relationships without legions of straight fans claiming "no it's ambiguous they're only friends who hold hands and kiss" is what tips the scale towards bioware games for me (not counting mass effects 1 & 2 obviously) even though i might like fallout more on a whole. 

 

but it's not out of any animosity like "no i hate you now that you dont have my thing", it's just, it wouldn't have that extra draw for me anymore. if i had a huge disposable income, then sure, i'd buy it, why not give it a try? but as it stands i don't, so i'm a bit limited.

[RynJ]

This is a great thread.

 

That's all I have to say, nothing else to add. Carry on and I'll keep reading and learning a lot!

[werewoof]

also: as pointed out above, there aren't really many other mainstream gaming companies that offer these opportunities. if there were, i'd be way more inclined to not care if bioware did a game without the romance i've come to love from dragon age games. but bioware is the only company i've seen go out of its way to be inclusive and do it pretty well at that.

[daveliam]

So since I'm typing this on my tablet, for some reason, it won't allow quoting, but I'm responding to Allan's suggestion about expression of sexuality without being able to engage in actual romantic content.  So here goes:

 

If there were no romances at all, then I would be fine with this.  In fact, I would be disappointed if there wasn't a way to indicate sexuality (provided that the context was appropriate).  I like the ability to express my sexuality outright, particularly since so many game do the subliminal hetero-codes that were being discussed earlier.  I hate when I role play my character as gay, but not only have no way to express it, but then they do the subtle hetero flirt or gaze, etc.

 

However, it's not preferable to me over experiencing romance content first hand (or even really comparable) and that's because of the ways that LGBT individuals (particularly gay men) have been portrayed in the media.  While there is certainly a heightened visibility, often those characters are still being portrayed in the following way:  introduce character --> introduce character's sexuality as gay (sometimes at the same time) --> refer to the character's sexuality in off-hand comments and jokes --> never show that character in a relationship or, if they do, doing anything physical (including things as simple as kissing or snuggling).  It's like we're still dipping our big toe into "gay exposure" and this is one of the ways to make sure that people get acclimatized to seeing gay people as actual sexualized individuals.  I'm not saying that the game has to have anything explicit, but to me at least there's a big difference between:  "I'm gay but effectively asexual because I never act on it" and "I'm gay and a normal person who has relationships". 

 

Now, it would, of course, be tempered by the fact that in the best case scenario, straight players also couldn't act on it at all, so it wouldn't be awful or terrible or wrong.  It would just be a little disappointing.

[Allan Schumacher]

but it's not out of any animosity like "no i hate you now that you dont have my thing", it's just, it wouldn't have that extra draw for me anymore. if i had a hue disposable income, then sure, i'd buy it, why not give it a try? but as it stands i don't, so i'm a bit limited.

 

Hey it's fair, and I know that people that do appreciate romances come under fire if they consider romances to be a significant factor in why they decide to buy a game, which isn't fair at all.

 

We all have our reasons for wanting to experience a game and those reasons are yours and valid for you.

 

 

I mean, a post was made earlier (perhaps jokingly, perhaps not) that this discussion is "scary."  I already have an idea as to why, and it's probably because that person really enjoys the romance content and values it highly with their BioWare experience!

[Mockingword]

 

That's literally impossible since we don't get personal / intimate dialog with 90% of the characters.

The alternative of having characters presented like "Hello, my name is X and I'm homosexual" or through ridiculously forced situations sounds horrible.

 

 

Does everything really have to be "in your face"? I actually love those hints, makes the game a bit more "real" for lack of a better word, people don't wear a gay tag IRL nor goes around describing themselves as such (in my experience anyway).

 

 

There is nothing ambiguous about having a pile of gay pornographic magazines in your house...

Like, they don't actually have to say "I am a homosexual". There's literally dozens of ways to demonstrate homosexual inclination without using the word "homosexual" (which doesn't seem to even exist in Thedas). You could start, for example, by having the gay couples actually act like couples. You know, the way all the straight ones do.

 

Lol, you don't want the gayness to be "in your face", but you're totally cool with going out of your way to snoop around a character's things to find "hints" of their sexuality. Seems to me like you spend more time worrying about sexuality than I do.

 

You know what? Yes. Yes it does have to be in your face, because heterosexuality is in my face literally all of the time. And really, if you think gay couples behaving exactly the same way straight couples do is "in your face", then frankly, you deserve to be made uncomfortable.

 

Can you actually prove that Bill owns gay porn magazines? We never actually see the content of these publications, and all Ellie says about them is that they have naked men inside, which is also true of plenty of straight porn.

[werewoof]

Hey it's fair, and I know that people that do appreciate romances come under fire if they consider romances to be a significant factor in why they decide to buy a game, which isn't fair at all.

 

We all have our reasons for wanting to experience a game and those reasons are yours and valid for you.

 

 

I mean, a post was made earlier (perhaps jokingly, perhaps not) that this discussion is "scary."  I already have an idea as to why, and it's probably because that person really enjoys the romance content and values it highly with their BioWare experience!

 

personally i will never understand people who get upset over people enjoying the romance. especially when they often turn around and proclaim they want nothing to do with a new dragon age game if it doesn't have the isometric zoom out thing or some other combat mechanic that gamers really like. romance is "girly" or whatever so that is just awful to a lot of gamers. 

 

honestly i did not like the gameplay of dragon age origins. for me it was clunky and awkward and slow and because i was about 5 when baldur's gate came out, i didn't have the nostalgia factor of that game to make me enjoy the combat more. but the story, while a bit on the cliche side, was well executed and the characters were so engaging and well written that i've played through da:o countless times now just because of that. the romance is a big part of it. a lot of people take issue with me and others enjoying the emotional draw of the game that than the hitting stuff with swords draw or the "it looks like an old game sort of" draw. 

[daveliam]

So while I understand what Mockingwood is saying about equal representation between gay and straight couples, I have to disagree with the idea that only those characters who explicitly and without any doubt have verified sexualities can count as "gay" (or lesbian or bi or whatever).  It take more mental gymnastics to explain away Bill's sexuality in the Last of Us than it does to accept it.  It seems like it's a fairly militant stance that isn't terribly realistic.  You state that you are okay with "other ways" of showing sexuality, but then you dismiss any that have any kind of ambiguity (and your example is a poor one because it's not terribly ambiguous).  If a character isn't in a relationship, how exactly do you want them to "prove" their sexuality to you without the awkward dialogue where they explicitly state "I'm gay."

[Allan Schumacher]

Like, they don't actually have to say "I am a homosexual". There's literally dozens of ways to demonstrate homosexual inclination without using the word "homosexual" (which doesn't seem to even exist in Thedas). You could start, for example, by having the gay couples actually act like couples. You know, the way all the straight ones do.
 
*snip*
 
You know what? Yes. Yes it does have to be in your face, because heterosexuality is in my face literally all of the time. And really, if you think gay couples behaving exactly the same way straight couples do is "in your face", then frankly, you deserve to be made uncomfortable.

 
Just curious, what types of behaviours are you referring to? Because even among heterosexuals there's a lot of behaviour I consider too "in my face" that I don't really appreciate seeing publicly either.

The reason I ask is because defining what it means to "hint" at a relationship seems pretty important, because I could see someone construing an imagine of two men holding hands as a hint, even if it's a particularly obvious one. And certainly not a degree of "snooping" around.

[Mockingword]

So while I understand what Mockingwood is saying about equal representation between gay and straight couples, I have to disagree with the idea that only those characters who explicitly and without any doubt have verified sexualities can count as "gay" (or lesbian or bi or whatever).  It take more mental gymnastics to explain away Bill's sexuality in the Last of Us than it does to accept it.  It seems like it's a fairly militant stance that isn't terribly realistic.  You state that you are okay with "other ways" of showing sexuality, but then you dismiss any that have any kind of ambiguity (and your example is a poor one because it's not terribly ambiguous).  If a character isn't in a relationship, how exactly do you want them to "prove" their sexuality to you without the awkward dialogue where they explicitly state "I'm gay."

Of course I dismiss "ambiguous examples". The whole point of ambiguity is to allow for multiple interpretations. If there's "ambiguity" then it's not representation at all. Heterosexuality is never ambiguous, so why should homosexuality be? Especially in a setting like Thedas.

 

It doesn't take any mental gymnastics for me at all to "explain away" Bill's sexuality. On the contrary, I never interpreted him as gay in the first place, so there was no need for me to explain it away. I was, and still am, genuinely bemused by individuals who jumped to this conclusion of their own volition.

 

I'm perfectly fine with "awkward dialogue", I never said that I wasn't. Awkwardness is a real thing, and it would be inauthentic of the writers to pretend that interactions (of any kind) are never awkward. I was merely addressing the silly assumption that I supposedly need every gay character to have a dramatic coming out speech.

 

But why must a dialogue be "awkward"? I tell people I meet that I'm gay all the time. It's not awkward for me. If it's awkward for them, I can only surmise that it's because they have an issue with homosexuality in general.

 

But if you need other ways, you can have the character talk about other individuals in the party that they find attractive, or they can mention a past relationship. If you pay attention to people when they're talking, particularly straight people, you'll find that they make their sexuality explicit extremely often, just as an incidental part of talking about their day. The only reason that it seems odd or awkward for gay people to do the same is because gay people have historically been forced to watch what they say, in case they get in trouble.

 

Just curious, what types of behaviours are you referring to? Because even among heterosexuals there's a lot of behaviour I consider too "in my face" that I don't really appreciate seeing publicly either.

The reason I ask is because defining what it means to "hint" at a relationship seems pretty important, because I could see someone construing an imagine of two men holding hands as a hint, even if it's a particularly obvious one. And certainly not a degree of "snooping" around.

Holding hands, hugging, kissing and pet names are pretty basic, explicit indicators that two people are in a relationship. There are exceptions of course. My friends and I will sometimes use pet names sarcastically, for instance. There are other, subtler forms of touching that would be much more difficult to animate. Whether or not such actions are generally "in your face", regardless of who's involved, is really outside my purview. I have no problem whatsoever with PDA.

 

Yes, if two adults are holding hands, I would take that as fairly explicit indication that they were in a romantic relationship.

 

I can't give you any help with defining a "hint", because I am not picking up the "hints" that other people apparently are.

[DragonRacer]

Leaning on the characters-as-people thing again, one of my favorite things that happened among the companions in DA2 was when Isabela and Fenris got together. That really worked for me on a storytelling level because the characters displayed agency outside of the influences of the player-character or the machinations of the player. They did what real people do: hook up, regardless of how that might make you feel. That was fantastic and was an occasion for me to learn more about them as individuals.

 

Similarly, Aveline displayed agency in choosing Donnic for herself but involved the player-character. Again, this is another instance of characters acting as real people by displaying agency in their actions. Or when Fenris heads to Lowtown to play cards with Varric, or when Sebastian comes over just to visit your dog, or when Isabela and Aveline fight horribly for 5 years and end up laughing over a bottle of wine in Aveline's office.

 

I would rather have 20 more instances like those than passionate kissing in a tent while Schmooples squeals in the background.

 

I would have to say this mirrors my perspective as well.

 

Do I enjoy the romances? Absolutely. And do I have some I'm eyeballing in hopes of DA:I? You betcha.

 

But really, I love the character interaction - between themselves and between your own character and the other party members. If romances were removed to make way for even more character content and platonic relationship-building like that, I'd be fine with it. DA2's interactions are a great example of that, as well as The Citadel DLC with the mega-party at Shepard's apartment. That was some of the most fun I've ever had in a game, that culmination of three games' worth of relationships turning into separate little groups at the party that you could interact with, dance with, or just eavesdrop on the conversations. So much awesome.

 

BioWare games are great for the companions, period. As much as I loved lone-wolfing it in Oblivion before I tried DA:O, DA:O hooked me with the companions. Sort of ironic in that I avoided the game for quite some time because I was concerned having a "squad" would get annoying or get in my way. Oh, how very, very wrong I was. Fallout: New Vegas came this close by having some interesting companions/personal quests for them, but still far behind BioWare's experiences from DA and ME, in my opinion.

[oceanicsurvivor]

 
Just curious, what types of behaviours are you referring to? Because even among heterosexuals there's a lot of behaviour I consider too "in my face" that I don't really appreciate seeing publicly either.

The reason I ask is because defining what it means to "hint" at a relationship seems pretty important, because I could see someone construing an imagine of two men holding hands as a hint, even if it's a particularly obvious one. And certainly not a degree of "snooping" around.

 

Well, Thedas had never had any couples snogging up and down the streets of Denerim and Kirkwall and beyond not wanting that I'm sure it'd be dreadful for the animators. But, using Wade and Herran again, even if I had known both were gay, they weren't coupley. Whenever Herran tries to placate Wade there were no terms of affection, it was all "Now Wade, don't do such and such". He seemed like a desperate store manager to me. Throwing in something as simple as a "dear, be reasonable" would have gone a long way towards coding their behavior as that of a couple.

 

Heterosexuality isn't just in everyones face when people are making out or being excessive in a way that is gross or inappropriate, its that it is everywhere. Always. Advertisements, movies, all forms of open affection everywhere. You can turn just about anywhere and see acceptance of opposite sex attraction b/c society has been trained to not bat an eye. Its again that coding of things. So even though heterosexual attraction is layered through so much of society, you don't really notice it always unless of course, you're gay and all these things around you don't click, because then it becomes rather obvious and confusing and irritating.

 

 

I cut some of the quote for length reasons, but is the inclusion of romance fulfillment* a positive because it acts somewhat as a guarantee that the LGBTQ depiction is more positive, and an assurance that the content exists?

*I say "romance fulfillment" in the sense that "a romance arc starts and some level of confirmation that the PC and the character are definitely in a relationship" as opposed to say, "romance expression" in that the setting allows the expression of interest to exist, including from the PC, but the exploration of romantic content doesn't go much beyond there within the context of the game. So I could freely share and express that my protagonist is gay/bi/straight, even have discussions about romance, but the act of pursuing and engaging in a relationship with another character is beyond the scope of the game.

 

I do think it remains preferable? What your suggesting would be interesting to see implemented, but I'm not sure how dynamic it would feel in game? Maybe its something to try in an Awakening type expansion? You couldn't romance any of the characters but perhaps you can have a convo with say, Sigrun about how you want to find someone to have a family with one day, or maybe how you don't want that, you want someone adventuring at your side etc. I think it is a good conversation beat, but I can't see romantic expression carrying as much content for the player?

 

[pallascedar]

Just curious, what behaviours are you referring to? Because even among heterosexuals there's a lot of behaviour I consider too "in my face" that I don't really appreciate seeing publicly either.

The reason I ask is because defining what it means to "hint" at a relationship seems pretty important, because I could see someone construing an imagine of two men holding hands as a hint, even if it's a particularly obvious one. And certainly not a degree of "snooping" around.

There is some degree of double standard about what "In your face" means. I remember in Guild Wars 2 a random NPC asks you to save his (male) lover: and of course you had the obligatory post complaining about that being too on your face. Hints to sexuality need to make sense in the moment is what's really important. Just like it's fine for a man to mention his wife, he should also be able to casually mention his husband. People shouldn't outright mention their sexuality unless it makes sense though.

Part of the reason I really like Romances is it allows me to define my protagonist as gay, which is refreshing in a gaming world where very few even side characters are gay. My Bigger issue with ME wasn't that the was no m/m romance in 1+2, but that Shepherd pretty much was pre defined as straight. I hated that I couldn't turn Ashley down with a simple "Hey, I don't like girls."

Bioware games are awesome because they tell awesome stories. But part of that goodness is that my character is a part of that world, and I kinda want my characters to be gay. If I can set my character up within the story without romance then I'd be less upset if a Romanceless game meant I was pigeonholed into playing a character that the game implies to be straight.

[Spectre Impersonator]

The first game I ever played that featured a optional romances that grew based on what you had your character say and do was KotOR and when I first realized I could have my own little Han Solo-Princess Leia moment (unanimated of course) on board the Ebon Hawk, I became more invested in the game. I hadn't known this would be possible before buying the game so it was a revelation at the time. Still, up until then, I was loving the game without romance, just because the character interactions, story, and expansions on the Star Wars galaxy were compelling.

 

So the romances are not necessary, but I would have been less in love with KotOR if I hadn't been able to fall in love with Bastila.

[Aner91]

Ok, true story time. ignore this post if you don't care about it...

 

 

So, i'm a gay male, i'm 23 and i am happy. At first i wasen't, i live in a small community in northen sweden, and like in most small villages etc, being gay can be hard, if not confusing. When i was still in school, around prom time, i came out. it did not get a good reaction from some people at school, and when i told my parents it was even worse. mind you that my mom had been asking me for ages if i liked girls, and mind you i was still in the closet by this time.They said that they were okey with it but can tell they are not. Then prom where around the corner and i wanted to go but i didn't. why? well i was afraid to go to prom without a date, and who would i ask? in my mind people did not accept it, in other words i was not accepted. so no prom for me, and i felt like i was six feet underground. then some months went, and i meet someone. Someone who had a family and friends that supported his homosexuality. I found acceptence kinda by accident, but it helped me lift myself up and be...well, happy.

 

I know this sounds like something i made up, but trust me, i did not.

 

So, if games can perhaps make people a little more tolerant with sexuality in all it's forms, it can perhaps change the life for people, And frankly, games is where it needs to happen. Since our (young) generation plays alot of games.

 

But to the question (i think lol); If bioware was to cut out romances it would suck for me personally lol, i would still get the games, i mean i'm hooked on bioware games as it is, so no worries there, but it would feel..."off" i guess...it's like Gaider said at GaymerX (yes, i was there lol); it's kind of an expectation at this point from Bioware.

[sandalisthemaker]

There is some degree of double standard about what "In your face" means. I remember in Guild Wars 2 a random NPC asks you to save his (male) lover: and of course you had the obligatory post complaining about that being too on your face. Hints to sexuality need to make sense in the moment is what's really important. Just like it's fine for a man to mention his wife, he should also be able to casually mention his husband. People shouldn't outright mention their sexuality unless it makes sense though.

Part of the reason I really like Romances is it allows me to define my protagonist as gay, which is refreshing in a gaming world where very few even side characters are gay. My Bigger issue with ME wasn't that the was no m/m romance in 1+2, but that Shepherd pretty much was pre defined as straight. I hated that I couldn't turn Ashley down with a simple "Hey, I don't like girls."

Bioware games are awesome because they tell awesome stories. But part of that goodness is that my character is a part of that world, and I kinda want my characters to be gay. If I can set my character up within the story without romance then I'd be less upset if a Romanceless game meant I was pigeonholed into playing a character that the game implies to be straight.

 

Perfection. This post is quite fabulous. Thank you.

[GVulture]

This seems as good of a thread as any as it's a romance themed thread, but I was talking with some friends and BioWare games came up, and we actually wondered "How would people react if there were no romances?" (But presumably replaced with some other type of writing content instead)

 

I'm not saying DAI has no romances, but I'm just curious how many people simply expect them to be there, and if they weren't there, would be more than a little disappointed.

I played the Bioware games back when there were no romance options for me (because BG didn't have any and I refused to recruit Anomen in BG2) or back when they weren't real romance plots (Fallout... back when Black Isle was the main dev) and I still enjoyed them. However, I love my games to have romance arcs. As much as I loved The Last of Us, it isn't going to take Uncharted's place in my heart as my favorite Naughty Dog game because there was no Elena/Nate. TLOU had a much deeper dynamic with Joel and I criiiied and cried and loved the game. But I still prefer Uncharted to TLOU, story wise. It is a personal preference.

I still have plenty of games on my shelf that don't include romance plots and I love some a whole terrible lot, but the ones that I have connected with on that emotional level are just held in high esteem. I will never sell or trade any of my Bioware games and I can honestly say it is because I can fire those game up and "fall in love" with a character. I still own KOTOR and Jade Empire for goodness sakes.

 

Also, when romances by Bioware are better written than most romance movies... I need my love stories. =p

 

I would still buy and play anything Bioware wrote at this point, but as long as they don't eschew the romance arcs entirely in ALL of their games I would be happy. I totally get the desire to branch out artistically. I just... don't take them away forever, mmkay? Because a romance arc in a game written for a FEMALE gamer is still a rare find in this world and I don't want my trustworthy source drying up (though I am still side eyeing Bioware for all the Femshep shafting in ME3)

[Jynxed_]

IMO if Bioware was to remove romances, a lot of people would "riot", including me. I think its better to have them so you at least have the option to do it if you want. Romance to me is a staple of a Bioware game...it really is one of the reasons that sets Bioware games apart from the rest.

 

 

 

Also romance-able Varric plz....plz...plz....