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[Nocte ad Mortem]

What bothers me about "ambiguous" same sex relationships and gay/bi characters is that their ambiguity is usually surrounded by a dozen explicitly straight characters. If you can clearly show heterosexuals in relationships, have them talk unabashedly about people they've been in relationships, people they find attractive, then you can do it with LGBT characters. I don't understand this impression that people have to come out and say "I am a homosexual" to be presented as being in or having been in same sex relationships. Does every straight character come out and tell you "I am a heterosexual" before they tell you about their spouse, or kids, or even just comment lewdly on the brothel girls? Relationships and sexuality is everywhere in stories, it's just that they're usually heterosexual and we don't question that. Sometimes it feels like people expect a character to be able to explain WHY they're gay. I see this with people saying things like, "it makes sense for Zevran and Leliana to be bi, but not _____". You don't need an explanation or a warning for LGBT representation. Just treat it like you would treat a heterosexual. 

[Abelas Forever!]

This seems as good of a thread as any as it's a romance themed thread, but I was talking with some friends and BioWare games came up, and we actually wondered "How would people react if there were no romances?" (But presumably replaced with some other type of writing content instead)

 

I'm not saying DAI has no romances, but I'm just curious how many people simply expect them to be there, and if they weren't there, would be more than a little disappointed.

 

I would be dissappointed. I really love romances in games. Of course I would buy a game with no romance since I have bought them earlier. However then I would think more should I buy the game or not. The other important thing for me in games is that I'm able to play as a female. If I couldn't do that then the plot and the characters should interest me. Of course if there are games  with romance option and I could play as a female character I might choose that kind of game instead. Or buy both. I can't say if I don't know what my options are.

 

If there weren't any romances then I think that just friends with somebody wouldn't be enough for me because I like the idea that I can fight with my male LI against our enemies as equals. I would also be happy if the romance would proceed slowly and I could have deep conversations with my LI. But the actual romance part could be something like a hug or holding hands in certain situation but it had to be clear that my charater and my LI are together. Of course this romance should be optional because what is more annoying than forced romance.

[Allan Schumacher]

There is some degree of double standard about what "In your face" means. I remember in Guild Wars 2 a random NPC asks you to save his (male) lover: and of course you had the obligatory post complaining about that being too on your face. Hints to sexuality need to make sense in the moment is what's really important. Just like it's fine for a man to mention his wife, he should also be able to casually mention his husband. People shouldn't outright mention their sexuality unless it makes sense though.

 

I agree that one's experiences will make things seem more "in your face."  I mean, Steve referencing his husband was surprising to me.  It wouldn't have been if he had mentioned a wife.

 

I also think that people have a tendency to overestimate the occurrence of particular issues like this, simply because their lack of prevalence makes them noteworthy in my mind.  If there was another person making a reference to his husband in ME3, I'd expect myself to be "Whoa, there's a lot of this stuff here!"  Even though every other character could make reference to their heterosexual partner and I'd probably not notice.

 

 

I think stuff like this is where challenge comes in in communicating, because I think multiple occurrence of someone saying "I am gay" would be as jarring as someone saying "I am not gay" and so forth - both would come across as "in my face."  But if people default towards heteronormative perceptions, is it sufficient for it to not be explicitly mentioned in such a way?  Hugging was mentioned, but I could see how that could be construed as ambiguous.  Context would be important.

 

Perhaps it's kind of similar in that yes LGBTQ expression in other ways is possible, but by having it as a romance it makes it explicit without any ambiguity.

 

 

Yes, if two adults are holding hands, I would take that as fairly explicit indication that they were in a romantic relationship.

 

So the trick about language is, do you disapprove if I consider that an appropriate and respectful hint/clue towards someone being in a relationship, but not something explicit?

[Veriond]

In terms of LGBT content that isn't PC romance it would be nice to have something like the quest to hook up Aveline and Donnic.  Don't get me wrong, I loved Aveline/Donnic and Fenris/Isabela. There were hints that Carver/Merril and Bethany/Sebastian were interested in each other, which was kind of cool. I really liked that companions had lives outside of the player. But it did bug me that outside of the potential PC romance there were no same sex couples in DA2. And the same sex couples that existed in DA:O were either so ambiguous that they needed Word of Dev to confirm their existance (Herren/Wade) or Psycho Lesbians with one partner who manipulated and brutally betrayed the other (Branka/Hespith and Marjolaine/Leliana).

 

Same sex PC romance is important for making a safe space for the player to explore sexuality, but having the game world show that same sex relationships are also something that people beyond you, the PC, have is important for representation of LGBT people. Having some of those relationships be relatively happy (aka Aveline and Donnic) is incredibly important as there is a long history of Tragic Queers.

[XMissWooX]

So I seem to be a little late to the party but I just wanted to share my thoughts:

I see.  :|

 
Now you've just made me feel really bad if I don't romance him.
What do you want from me? Companion pity-sex?!?

 

This seems as good of a thread as any as it's a romance themed thread, but I was talking with some friends and BioWare games came up, and we actually wondered "How would people react if there were no romances?" (But presumably replaced with some other type of writing content instead)
 
I'm not saying DAI has no romances, but I'm just curious how many people simply expect them to be there, and if they weren't there, would be more than a little disappointed.

 
I would still buy the game but I would probably be a little disappointed. It depends on what sort of content would be replacing the romances:
 

This is key. Often, additional character development and interaction is reserved for the romance arcs, which makes perfect sense. They only have so many writers, so much time, and so much money, after all. YMMV here, but what I want is to get to know my companions as people. The fade to black sex scene? Not so much.

This is why I enjoy the romances. The player can get to know each of their companions to a certain degree, but the romances allow them to pick one to explore further.
If Bioware could come up with an alternative to romances which allows the same level of character exploration and development, I would probably be fine with it.

I would also like to point that if Dragon Age were a 'dating simulator', all 9 companions would be LIs, there would be no storyline outside companion quests and things like combat, crafting, ecosystems, etc. would be cut altogether, along with anything not directly pertaining to romance and relationships.
As far as I can tell, Dragon Age is still first and foremost an RPG.

[Veriond]

Some further thoughts RE: why talking about a hypothetical removal of romances is scary.

 

The queer content of Dragon Age is almost entirely in the romances. As I mentioned above there are almost no characters in the games who are explictly queer and not LIs. There are no positive portrayals of queer people in the games who are not LIs. In some cases (Fenris and Merrill particuraly) the LI is debatably queer, hence the persistent arguement about bisexual vs playersexual.

 

I'm pretty sure Allen didn't intent to make me feel this way, but I do feel scared talking about this. This conversation has been a very good one and I didn't take Allen's initial hypothetical no romance Bioware game as any kind of threat, but at the same time what that question has resulted in has been a defence of the presence of romances due to their being the only explictly queer content in the Dragon Age games. Because of this when a dev posits doing a game without romances it feels as if they are positing removing the queer content. And that is incredibly scary to me. Possibly if there was more queer content outside of the romances I wouldn't feel so scared of not having them. I would likely still be disapointed if they didn't exist, but it wouldn't feel like such an erasure.

[Darth Krytie]

Some further thoughts RE: why talking about a hypothetical removal of romances is scary.

 

The queer content of Dragon Age is almost entirely in the romances. As I mentioned above there are almost no characters in the games who are explictly queer and not LIs. There are no positive portrayals of queer people in the games who are not LIs. In some cases (Fenris and Merrill particuraly) the LI is debatably queer, hence the persistent arguement about bisexual vs playersexual.

 

I'm pretty sure Allen didn't intent to make me feel this way, but I do feel scared talking about this. This conversation have been a very good one and I didn't take Allen's initial hypothetical no romance Bioware game as any kind of threat, but at the same time what that question has resulted in has been a defence of the presence of romances due to their being the only explictly queer content in the Dragon Age games. Because of this when a dev posits doing a game without romances it feels as if they are positing removing the queer content. And that is incredibly scary to me. Possibly if there was more queer content outside of the romances I wouldn't feel so scared of not having them. I would likely still be disapointed if they didn't exist, but it wouldn't feel like such an erasure.

 

I agree and I'd "like" this if they didn't cut me off like a bartender at 3am.

 

I think that you made a great point. The queer content is almost explicitly done in the romances. Before I'd trust a game without romantic content, I'd like to see them add more queer content outside of romances in their games first.

[Allan Schumacher]

The queer content of Dragon Age is almost entirely in the romances. As I mentioned above there are almost no characters in the games who are explictly queer and not LIs. There are no positive portrayals of queer people in the games who are not LIs. In some cases (Fenris and Merrill particuraly) the LI is debatably queer, hence the persistent arguement about bisexual vs playersexual.

 

I agree that romances is where most of the queer content is contained.  It seems to me that this could be a place where BioWare could improve, which maybe wouldn't be as obvious (to me, anyways) had we not engaged in this conversation

 

 

I think that you made a great point. The queer content is almost explicitly done in the romances. Before I'd trust a game without romantic content, I'd like to see them add more queer content outside of romances in their games first.

 

This is fair.  It's a leap of faith for me to say "Imagine this thing that you liked with this nebulous sort of thing that you might like as well!"

[Stelae]

This seems as good of a thread as any as it's a romance themed thread, but I was talking with some friends and BioWare games came up, and we actually wondered "How would people react if there were no romances?" (But presumably replaced with some other type of writing content instead)

 

I'm not saying DAI has no romances, but I'm just curious how many people simply expect them to be there, and if they weren't there, would be more than a little disappointed.

More than a little disappointed in the same way that the Pacific Ocean is more than a little damp. 

 

The writing would still be awesome, the characters would still be fascinating and fun, the mechanics would still be polished, sure - it's a Day 1 buy for me - but there'd  be a big-heart shaped hole in the game.  Big.  And shaped like a heart.  And a hole. 

[Volus Warlord]

More than a little disappointed in the same way that the Pacific Ocean is more than a little damp. 

 

The writing would still be awesome, the characters would still be fascinating and fun, the mechanics would still be polished, sure - it's a Day 1 buy for me - but there'd  be a big-heart shaped hole in the game.  Big.  And shaped like a heart.  And a hole. 

 

 

I will use this as a counter example:

 

When I first played ME2, I completed a few playthroughs and loved the hell out of the game-and I didn't even know the romances existed. 

[Darth Krytie]

I will use this as a counter example:

 

When I first played ME2, I completed a few playthroughs and loved the hell out of the game-and I didn't even know the romances existed. 

 

As a counter, counter example, the first time I played ME2 and discovered Garrus, my one-true space boyfriend, I went from being a casual ME fan to a die hard, spend all my life wallowing in its greatness fan.

[Volus Warlord]

As a counter, counter example, the first time I played ME2 and discovered Garrus, my one-true space boyfriend, I went from being a casual ME fan to a die hard, spend all my life wallowing in its greatness fan.

 

As a counter to your counter to my counter example, when I did discover the romances, they really did not change my view of any of the characters at all. However, some of the fandom due to the romances has negatively affected my view of certain characters quite heavily (Case in point: Tali)

 

As a counter⁵ example to counter a potential counter, I do believe Bioware is in part responsible for letting character followings to become total whackjob nuthouses. Let's hope for no further brutal "over-analysis" of an LI's physique this time around. 

[Iron Fist]

As a counter to your counter to my counter example, when I did discover the romances, they really did not change my view of any of the characters at all. However, some of the fandom due to the romances has negatively affected my view of certain characters quite heavily (Case in point: Tali)

 

You got something negative to say about my woman?

 

[CuriousArtemis]

How is it scary?

 

Well, he's making me think that their next game won't have any romance in it at all... which is scary lol

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I didn't even play the Mass Effect series until m/m romances were announced for three. I'm a pretty casual player, so I don't play a lot of games. It's not like I was actively protesting by not buying them, but I'd first heard about DA from a friend and was really excited to hear about the same sex romance feature. When ME came up, I was disappointed to hear it wasn't an option in them. I wasn't angry with the developers, or anything, it was basically just, "aww, that's too bad", and I moved on without giving it a lot more thought. I'm not as into sci-fi settings as fantasy settings, generally. When I heard they were adding in m/m romances for three, it motivated me to give them a chance, since I loved the DA games. I think people get the wrong impression sometimes when people say they wouldn't buy the games without romances, or without same sex relationships, specifically. It's not always this big, angry, hateful proclamation. I always see these, "YOU TAKE THIS SO SERIOUSLY", posts. Well, sure, in as far as I take video games seriously, in general. 

 

Anyway, I ended up being extremely happy with Kaidan's romance, but I was disappointed by Cortez. It was a let down to me that he was only an NPC and that all he ever talked about was his dead husband. I mean, that's literally his entire character arch and all I remember about him. He doesn't have any opinions that I remember about any of the quests, or any of the social issues going on in the ME world. It was really off putting, to me, and I was pretty disappointed since there were only the two options in the whole series for m/m pairings. Still, I was happy they were moving forward and I feel more confident in them adding more balance in future games. Because they added them, even if I thought they could be better, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and continue following the series. 

[DragonRacer]

As a counter to your counter to my counter example, when I did discover the romances, they really did not change my view of any of the characters at all. However, some of the fandom due to the romances has negatively affected my view of certain characters quite heavily (Case in point: Tali)

 

As a counter⁵ example to counter a potential counter, I do believe Bioware is in part responsible for letting character followings to become total whackjob nuthouses. Let's hope for no further brutal "over-analysis" of an LI's physique this time around. 

 

I just got the hilarious mental image of a thread popping up trying to analyze what Iron Bull's Qunari sweat would smell/taste like.

 

*rolling laughing*

[TheCreeper]

This seems as good of a thread as any as it's a romance themed thread, but I was talking with some friends and BioWare games came up, and we actually wondered "How would people react if there were no romances?" (But presumably replaced with some other type of writing content instead)

 

I'm not saying DAI has no romances, but I'm just curious how many people simply expect them to be there, and if they weren't there, would be more than a little disappointed.

Having the devs gone on record as saying there would be romances, didn't Gaider say he would be writing two?  That's why I'm expecting them to be there, that and they're really a bioware stable at this point.

[Twilight_Princess]

I just got the hilarious mental image of a thread popping up trying to analyze what Iron Bull's Qunari sweat would smell/taste like.
 
*rolling laughing*

You mean Bull sweat?





...well I thought it was funny *cough*

[Stelae]

I will use this as a counter example:

 

When I first played ME2, I completed a few playthroughs and loved the hell out of the game-and I didn't even know the romances existed. 

I suspect we are locked in vicious agreement; the characters and the writing of the game, and the mechanics (oh, how I loved what they did for sniping!) would make any Bioware game a day-1 purchase for me. 

 

I've had play-throughs where I didn't romance anyone, but I was attached enough to the characters that, for example,  I had to turn off the game and go have a cry when Mordin died.  He was a wonderful character with a brilliant story arc; illuminating, redemptive.  Losing him actually hurt.  Bioware characters are the only characters in video games I get that attached to; it's usually books that do that for me. 

 

(Call it a pixel-crush if you like, young Allan, but it's no mean feat to make a character so real and lovable. Try and explain to someone why you got misty-eyed at a Gilbert and Sullivan patter song, some time.) 

 

But the romances are also often (not always, but usually) good in terms of characterisation.  They are funny, warm, awkward, touching, they never feel like you are just jumping someone's bones.  Bioware writes great characters, and yes, they could make great characters even without romance.  But they have written some cracking romances, and it'd be a shame to lose that content. 

[Veriond]

I agree that romances is where most of the queer content is contained.  It seems to me that this could be a place where BioWare could improve, which maybe wouldn't be as obvious (to me, anyways) had we not engaged in this conversation

 

This is an area where Bioware could make big improvements towards queer inculsivity with very little change to resouce allocation. Fenris/Isabela having a relationship is established in what, one, banter with flags to check that the PC isn't romancing either of them. Again I love that they hook up, but it could have just as easily been Isabela and Merrill getting together. Oghren's old flame could have been a man. Aveline could have asked our help with wooing Brennen instead of Donnic. I'm not saying make every nonPC romance in the game queer, but right now there are a number of nonPC romances involving companions and all of them involve opposite sex couples even when the people involved (Fenris/Isabela) are explictly queer. I think it is just the devs defalting to heteronormitivity without really thinking about it, but little things add up.

 

While more depth to nonPC queer relationships would be greatly appreciated, simply having more visible queer characters by having non companion characters casually mention same sex relationships would help. For example when we first meet Lady Elegant in DA2 she casually mentions her recent marriage to a nobleman as the cause of the change in her social status. She could have just as easily casually mentioned a noblewoman instead.

[Allan Schumacher]

(Call it a pixel-crush if you like, young Allan, but it's no mean feat to make a character so real and lovable. Try and explain to someone why you got misty-eyed at a Gilbert and Sullivan patter song, some time.)

 

Just to clarify, I used the term since I heard someone else use it, and it didn't sound disparaging to me.  Though my good intentions don't mean anything if it IS considered unflattering.  I agree that the characters are well written though and I think the interactive nature of games can work as a force multiplier for some people.

 

I had a pixel crush on Jaheira back when I played BG2, so it's not a perception that I am unfamiliar with

[jellobell]

Hmmm, I'd definitely be disappointed if a Bioware game didn't contain romance. My stance on whether I'd buy it or not would probably depend a lot on word of mouth. Whereas usually I get every single Bioware game I can on day one, I'd wait a bit on one that didn't have romance. That's just personal preference, of course. The bigger issue for me is gender choice. I completely passed on Alpha Protocol when I learned that you could only be a guy, romances notwithstanding. There are so few video games that allow me to play as my own gender that I'd be rather angry if Bioware suddenly decided to stop offering the choice when they're one of the only game developers that consistently let me do this.

 

However, I do see where you're coming from. It's the characters that really make these games memorable. Romances are wonderful in that they allow you more choice in how you interact with them, and thus let you feel like your character more of a presence in their world than someone who's just listening to them talk. One of my favourite games of all time is KOTOR 2, flawed and buggy and unfinished as it was. I loved how the Exile was able to influence her companions and how the gameplay and story converged in surprising and wonderful ways. And KOTOR 2 had even less romantic content than PS:T (iirc, it's been a while)  but I had the most terrible crush on Atton and I'd play his sort-of romance over Carth's more fleshed-out one any day (not knocking Carth but he didn't stick for me like Atton did ). Perhaps a full romance with Atton might not have hit the same notes for me that his not-romance did. I did feel that it fit with the overall tone of the game (some things just can't be fixed, sometimes you miss your chance), and I also liked that it offered some space for hope at the end, too. So no culmination during the game, but allowing people to imagine what might happen next. That might be a happy medium if you wanna do a game with no explicit "romance arc" per se.

 

But I can also see where the LGBT folks are coming from too. If I think it's hell to find a game that lets me be a lady once in a while then it must really really suck to try and find a game where you can be gay. Or which has even a hint that other people in the game might be gay. I know that I gravitate to Bioware games because even the games that have leading ladies often don't let her be sexual. They make her sexy, sure, but that's very obviously for the benefit of the straight dude that the devs obviously assume is playing. She's never allowed to exert any sexual or romantic agency of her own towards dudes, 'cuz that'd be gay apparently (and if you think I'm joking look at this. This is a thing that actually happens). So that's why I love Bioware's romances. They let me play as a woman and know that there are at least two characters in the game that were not written for straight dudes but for people like me. It lets me feel that I'm not some fringe market but a valued customer. And a game that does that is a pearl in a goddamn bucket of sand.

 

I mean, you can even kind of see this in Bioware games too. I'm lookin' at you, Mass Effect. There is a reason why Femshep has more female options than male ones in ME3. The stereotype is that straight guys like lesbians (and it's so obvious when a romantic plot is written by guys for guys rather than with any real women in mind).

 

So yeah, as for the romance options for DA:I, I'm trying not to get my hopes up but I really really want Varric (as an LI ). I guess I have a thing for bromantic relationships. Garrus is my favourite romance...ever (though a lot of that is because he goes with you through all three ME games and he grows so much and is always by your side no matter what and ok I'll stop).

 

I'm also liking the look of Solas. He doesn't do much for me in a physical sense but that's waaay down the list of what I like in an LI. After all, Jacob and Kaidan were pretty but I ended up going for the Dino-Bird-Man. Solas seems like he's going to have an interesting personality. I heard somewhere that he's apparently supposed to be "awkward"? Which can mean a whole lot of things but I am a complete sucker for dorky mages. Ideally outwardly snarky and inwardly dorky mages. Of course, I've gotta be careful not to project a personality onto him this early in the game, but the idea makes me hyped to romance him with a massive FemQunari who'd break him in half like a twig~ And wow, this has gotten long.

[bairdduvessa]

So long as there is a romanceable qunari chick.

 

Why are you looking at me like that?

i am with you!

[Mockingword]

So the trick about language is, do you disapprove if I consider that an appropriate and respectful hint/clue towards someone being in a relationship, but not something explicit?

No, not really. You can consider it a hint if you want to, that won't change how I feel about it.

[Allan Schumacher]

No, not really. You can consider it a hint if you want to, that won't change how I feel about it.

 

That's fair and there's no expectation that you should feel any different, or see it the same way that I do.  What this conversation does, however, is provide some context for me when you use terms like explicit or hint, and that the applications I use for myself doesn't really work for you, and hopefully vice versa.