2090 réponses à ce sujet

[Nefla]

If there were no romances, honestly I would be crushed Games are already full of things that are traditionally geared towards men (violence, combat, weapons, armor, whatever) there are few games that have the stereotypically woman-y things that I like (extremely detailed customization, romance, pretty pretty dresses, etc...)

[Aner91]

If there were no romances, honestly I would be crushed Games are already full of things that are traditionally geared towards men (violence, combat, weapons, armor, whatever) there are few games that have the stereotypically woman-y things that I like (extremely detailed customization, romance, pretty pretty dresses, etc...)

 

But..i like romance ...but i also like heart pumping action so i guess it's okey

[illymiel]

If Cullen is a companion, I swear I will cry. 

And if he is romanceable, I will also be unhappy. I want him to live a life of regret for rejecting my Warden for being a mage! Sure, she wasn't into him anyway, but that was still very rude!

 

I'm not Cullen fun, but I think it is ok to move further after you made a decision. You can't know if your decision was right or bad. May be warden rejecting was his best decision ever. For example he could end being rejected because of rich prince Alistair, or end with lifeless warden body sacrificed for greater good. I would be glad if he could live fine after part ways with warden, means he do not focus on past. Also there is a lot of time passed since he seen warden, I'm not sure, may be 10 years? That's a lot of time to think, for feelings to fade, and even forget what she looks like.

[Bob from Accounting]

I mean, you can even kind of see this in Bioware games too. I'm lookin' at you, Mass Effect. There is a reason why Femshep has more female options than male ones in ME3. The stereotype is that straight guys like lesbians (and it's so obvious when a romantic plot is written by guys for guys rather than with any real women in mind).

 

Do you have some kind of issue with the ME 3 Traynor romance? Since I'm assuming the Liara and Allers romances are near-identical for the two genders.

[SurelyForth]

Do you have some kind of issue with the ME 3 Traynor romance? Since I'm assuming the Liara and Allers romances are near-identical for the two genders.

 

Traynor's romance, despite being exclusively for FemSheps, is pretty male gazey. I love Traynor, but there's a distinct Cinemax vibe to her love scene and her attraction to EDI gets a bit overplayed by the time the Citadel DLC rolls around. Could you imagine Steve essentially having twenty lines of dialogue about how embarrassing it is that he admitted he wanted to [sexual innuendo] Javik's voice?

[Dutchess]

Do you have some kind of issue with the ME 3 Traynor romance? Since I'm assuming the Liara and Allers romances are near-identical for the two genders.

 

The issue is more the lack of choice a straight female Shepard is offered in comparison. This thread now seems to be completely about homosexual relationships, but actually, I feel the straight female character has been getting the short end of the stick in most Bioware games too. It is the most difficult for a straight female to get a happy ending with her lover. Only the straight female can get dumped by her romance (Alistair and Jacob). Only the straight female's romance gets killed no matter what (Thane) instead of saving them by meeting certain conditions (Tali and Miranda) or has to let her romance sleep with someone else to have them both live (Alistair). Only the straight female is deceived by her romance (Anders, though that's what you get for getting in a relationship with an abomination to begin with). Though this last one also applies for the homosexual male character, as DA2's options for those were the same. 

[Bob from Accounting]

You can not and should not assume that women being sexual with other woman being more accepted than men being sexual with other men has anything to do with 'male gaze.'

[Mes]

The issue is more the lack of choice a straight female Shepard is offered in comparison. This thread now seems to be completely about homosexual relationships, but actually, I feel the straight female character has been getting the short end of the stick in most Bioware games too. It is the most difficult for a straight female to get a happy ending with her lover. Only the straight female can get dumped by her romance (Alistair and Jacob). Only the straight female's romance gets killed no matter what (Thane) instead of saving them by meeting certain conditions (Tali and Miranda) or has to let her romance sleep with someone else to have them both live (Alistair). Only the straight female is deceived by her romance (Anders, though that's what you get for getting in a relationship with an abomination to begin with). Though this last one also applies for the homosexual male character, as DA2's options for those were the same. 

 

May I add that only straight females have to deal with their love interests bemoaning some long lost love With the exception of Steve Cortez, that is, because he's gay. But it still puts you in a position where if you want to romance a dude, be prepared to feel like you're his second choice.

 

You can not and should not assume that women being sexual with other woman being more accepted than men being sexual with other men has anything to do with 'male gaze.'

 

Why's it more accepted, then.

[wolfhowwl]

May I add that only straight females have to deal with their love interests bemoaning some long lost love With the exception of Steve Cortez, that is. But it still puts you in a position where if you want to romance a dude, be prepared to feel like you're his second choice.

 

The infamous Carth Syndrome strikes again.

[Bob from Accounting]

I don't know. I get the feeling women are more accepted of being openly sexual than men in general. Perhaps it has something to do with being perceived as less threatening and intrusive?

 

Since Citadel was mentioned, I think I might as well point out that Traynor wasn't the only one. Miranda and Jack can both be half-seriously suggested into having sex by Shepard. Tali drunkingly mentions having a threesome with a female Shepard and Garrus. I know Jack has at least one comment where she says she would have sex with Tali herself if she was drunker. And of course you have EDI responding affectionately to Traynor.

 

So that's Miranda, Jack, Tali, and even EDI. At least three characters generally considered straight pretty heavily leaning towards other women. And you know what? I approve.

[Zanallen]

I don't play Bioware games for the romance and so wouldn't be too bothered if a game lacked them. That being said, I do enjoy a good romance in my entertainment media; whether it be game, book or movie. I think a relationship between the characters really adds something to the narrative that I enjoy.

[Mes]

 

So that's Miranda, Jack, Tali, and even EDI. At least three characters generally considered straight pretty heavily leaning towards other women. And you know what? I approve.

 

I would like to see some of that from straight male characters. Though I bet it'd cause a big ol' ruckus.

[Bob from Accounting]

Oh, I almost forget about Brooks.

 

Yeah, Brooks. The way she and the clone touch each other kind of imply they're in a relationship. And I haven't heard so much of a peep of complaint from any female players that their clone might be into a women. That would ****** players off to no end if it was a man.

[Zanallen]

And speaking of KoTOR...I still have a thing for Bastila.

[Bob from Accounting]

They got over it. It's not inconsistent at all. And in fact, their conversation is still somewhat hostile before Shepard steps in.

[Bob from Accounting]

Their entire argument in ME 2 was Jack being angry with Miranda over Cerberus. Not only does Jack move past her childhood with Cerberus, but Miranda departs from them as well.

[Darth Krytie]

Their entire argument in ME 2 was Jack being angry with Miranda over Cerberus. Not only does Jack move past her childhood with Cerberus, but Miranda departs from them as well.

 

Yes, Jack went through growth as did Miranda at the end. It never felt off to me. I mean they're not gonna hold hands and paint each other's finger nails, but they're pretty squarely frenemies by then.

[Maria Caliban]

I think the depiction of same-sex attraction in women, specifically in Mass Effect and Dragon Age, has elements of the male gaze, but is also part of a larger cultural conversation about female sexuality.

Traynor perving over EDI's voice is probably more acceptable than Cortez perving over Javik's because.
1) EDI is presented as sexually desirable in general, Javik is not.
2) It's socially acceptable for women to 'gush' over things they find sexy.
3) Female attraction is seen as less aggressive than male attraction.

I'll also add that if James spent time talking about how sexy EDI's voice was, it would probably also be considered a bit creepy. If he did it in a flirtatious way, people would probably expect he and Joker to butt heads. Alternatively, Katsumi writing poetry about Jacob's sexy body is considered cute, not voyeuristic and objectifying.

So yes, there's a bit more to it than 'male gaze.'

Edit: Another example is the Morrigan/Leliana dialogue in DA:O where Leliana tells Morrigan she's beautiful, mentally dresses her, and Morrigan comments that having Leliana look at her bosom is most disturbing. If Leliana were a straight guy instead of a bisexual woman, the conversation would probably not be considered playful and amusing.

[Grieving Natashina]

Not to be rude, but could some of the posters retreat from the ME talk a little bit and put it back into context of DA?  Some of us didn't play those games and have little clue as to what everyone is going on about.  

 

 

The issue is more the lack of choice a straight female Shepard is offered in comparison. This thread now seems to be completely about homosexual relationships, but actually, I feel the straight female character has been getting the short end of the stick in most Bioware games too. It is the most difficult for a straight female to get a happy ending with her lover. Only the straight female can get dumped by her romance (Alistair and Jacob). Only the straight female's romance gets killed no matter what (Thane) instead of saving them by meeting certain conditions (Tali and Miranda) or has to let her romance sleep with someone else to have them both live (Alistair). Only the straight female is deceived by her romance (Anders, though that's what you get for getting in a relationship with an abomination to begin with). Though this last one also applies for the homosexual male character, as DA2's options for those were the same. 

 

 

You bring up an interesting point, one that I didn't even think of.   First, thanks for putting the Mass Effect references into context for me.  I really appreciate it.  Secondly, this is an interesting trend that has some disturbing implications.   I know that it's not the intention but it reads like this trope: "Women can't have a successful career and/or be empowered and have love at the same time. It's either a career or having someone you love."  It's a stereotype that's not only being proven less true in our society, but one I keep seeing in games time and time again.  

 

Also, as another poster mentioned (sorry, been catching up the thread, but you did get a like,) so far the gay/lesbian relationships have either been ambiguous, abusive or tragic.  

 

With the first, I use the example of Wade and Herren.  Pretty much right away I could tell that they were a couple, but Herren didn't come off as a "long suffering wife," he seemed more like a flat-out jerk to his partner.  I can see how some players were left with questions about them, because they didn't even come close to acting like a healthy couple at all.  No little compliments?  A loving touch on the cheek while one of them looks at the at the other before a kiss?  Not even holding hands?  It didn't strike me as a great relationship.

 

Then you have Leliana and Marjoline.  Oh boy.  That's kind of a two-for-one there: The relationship was abusive from the word go with Marjoline using Leliana, with those events ending in tragedy for most of Leliana's friends.  Leliana herself suffered some serious abuse before meeting Justina and getting out of there.

 

Finally, Anders and Karl.  Setting aside the fact that it bothered me that Anders didn't tell my female Hawke about him, the whole thing was tragic.  Anders, rushing off to Kirkwall to try to save his friend and lover, recruits some help...only to find he's Tranquil.  Depending upon the player's actions, Karl will either stay that way or is killed.  

 

It would be nice to hear/meet a gay couple that isn't tragic or abusive.  That shows those tiny signs of affection that is largely taken for granted.  A kiss on the cheek while holding hands.  Hearing someone being called "dear" or "sweetie."  A little less snark in our gay couples would be nice too. <looks back to Wade and Herren>

 

For example, I thought the relationship between the Cousland parents, as short as it was, was very well done.  I felt for both them as well as the PC by the time I was done with that Origin.  It has confused me as to why they can't show a gay couple like that.  

 

Or how about a kid raised by a lesbian/gay parents?  Say you have to get a note to this child's parents because he's in trouble, and instead of the expected heterosexual couple, it's two men.  Make it apparent that these are just like depictions of (most) straight parents: Loving kind people that watch out for their child and have raised them the best they can.

 

That's just my two cents on this discussion.  I look forward to reading more as time goes on.