2090 réponses à ce sujet

[phantomrachie]

This is exactly how I feel about it.  I also think this conflation is why the conversations often get heated and flame out with mod closings.  When someone states that "playersexuality weakens the character" (which, for the record, I don't necessarily agree with, even if I don't love playersexuality), people read that as "bisexuality weakens the character" and get offended.  Or, someone who means "playersexuality" actually says "bisexuality" and causes a ton of issues.  Now, of course, that's not to state that there aren't a bunch of people who are actually saying what they mean, but I've seen enough of the former to know that the wording should be sorted out.

 

For the record, I'm not convinced that any of the DA LIs were playersexual.  We can clearly rule out Alistair, Morrigan, and Sebastian because they aren't open to the same gender; and Zevran, Leliana, Isabela, and (with slightly less substantial evidence) Anders, who all present evidence of being bisexual in the game. 

 

So really, it's just Fenris and Merrill who even might be playersexual.  And in no way do either give an indication about what their sexualities might be (outside of the Fenris hooks up with Isabela thing, which only means he's not gay, which we already knew because he could romance female Hawke).  Some people interpret this as evidence that they are playersexual, but I'm not convinced.  I would need to see Merrill say, "I'm straight" to a male Hawke and "I'm a lesbian" to a female Hawke for me to be convinced that she's playersexual.

 

Regarding my own personal preferences?  I'm not a fan of playersexual because I don't like the idea that a character's sexuality can be changed by the PC.  However, I'm fine with either the 2/2/2 approach, even if it means that someone won't get two companion romances OR the all bisexual approach.  Either of them works for me.  However, I do agree that we should probably not use playersexual to equal bisexual because they are not the same thing regarding gender (I'm not even opening up the can of worms around playersexuality and PC actions!).

 

I wish I could give you 100 likes.

 

Just because a character doesn't openly come out and say "Hi, I'm bi" doesn't mean they are not and just because a character once had a relationship with a woman/man doesn't mean they are not bi.

 

I've always just thought of the DA:2 LIs as all Bi and I've no issue with that, it gives all players the same amount of choices which I'm all for. 

 

If the LIs are playersexual in DA:I then I'll probably just think of them as Bi, unless they out and out say otherwise.

[daveliam]

 I don't understand why some people are so vehemently insistent that everyone just admit the characters are always bisexual based on meta knowledge. 

 

It's not so much this as it is the fact that using "playersexual" and "bisexual" interchangeably is incorrect.  Isabela isn't playersexual, but when people say that the DA 2 system was playersexual, they are insinuating this (or just being a bit careless with their words).  I guess, I'm just pointing out that the careless approach to language is one of the contributing factors to the already heated discussion.  If you want to play a playthrough and consider Merrill to be a lesbian, go for it.  Seriously, more power to you.  I have no vested interested in policing how other people play their game.  However, by calling them playersexual (and even more so by using that in discussions of what we might see in the next game), you are effectively doing the same thing as people who call them bisexual.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

It's not so much this as it is the fact that using "playersexual" and "bisexual" interchangeably is incorrect.  Isabela isn't playersexual, but when people say that the DA 2 system was playersexual, they are insinuating this (or just being a bit careless with their words).  I guess, I'm just pointing out that the careless approach to language is one of the contributing factors to the already heated discussion.  If you want to play a playthrough and consider Merrill to be a lesbian, go for it.  Seriously, more power to you.  I have no vested interested in policing how other people play their game.  However, by calling them playersexual (and even more so by using that in discussions of what we might see in the next game), you are effectively doing the same thing as people who call them bisexual.

My post was more in response to the "that's just stupid" one before yours.

 

But the things is that there's not really a name for the system I most advocate, with some characters being bisexual and some staying vague. Calling them all bisexual isn't correct, that's not necessarily what I'm advocating. I'm not saying that they clearly demonstrate every character shift with your gender, either, so it's not exactly what you call playersexual. What do you think is the most clear title for a system like this? 

[harktag]

To be honest, I'm a bit concerned about the 2/2/2 split idea.  While it would be fair and realistic, I don't normally play guys.  What if the character I want to pursue is m/m only?  Sure, I could make a male character to pursue him, but I don't really want to play as a man.  And, what if it cut certain people out of, for instance, Iron Bull's romance?  Usually elves are bisexual.  But, there are a lot of female fans of Solas, and if he turned out to prefer the boys' team, well... there will be disappointed ladies (myself included, though, I'll survive it).  But qunari?  That's a totally new thing.  Granted, Iron Bull may not even be an option, but I'm positive people of both sexes will want to give it a try if he is.

 

It's true that would be more like real life--you can't always have the person you want.  They aren't always (or even usually) interested.  But, for the sake of a game... I'd rather every possible partner be available to everyone who wants to pursue that character, as long as they don't do anything to put that potential love interest off from them, even if it's not necessarily realistic.

Welcome to the world of gay people! Where we have this very same problem (in real life) with 9 out of 10 people we end up liking! But I totally agree with you that having every possible partner be available would be great. Even if it's not realistic, you're talking about a universe where dragons, magic, and other things of that caliber exist, right?

 

[daveliam]

My post was more in response to the "that's just stupid" one before yours.

 

But the things is that there's not really a name for the system I most advocate, with some characters being bisexual and some staying vague. Calling them all bisexual isn't correct, that's not necessarily what I'm advocating. I'm not saying that they clearly demonstrate every character shift with your gender, either, so it's not exactly what you call playersexual. What do you think is the most clear title for a system like this? 

 

Yeah, I'm not really sure if there is a catch all term for what you want.  I guess what you really want is the DA 2 approach sans Sebastian, right?  So we can't even just say the "DA 2 approach", either.  You and your complex thinking....!  (Is there a "shakes fists at the sky" emoticon?)

[azarhal]

I don't understand why some people are so vehemently insistent that everyone just admit the characters are always bisexual based on meta knowledge. 

 

I never asked that others admit anything. I said that I found it stupid to ignore the NPCs background and personalities in-between playthrough, which means that I don't do it. I don't gives a damn what others think on the subject.

[Blackrising]

*sigh*

All that speculation that Cass will be hetero-only is making me sad. If that happens, I might suffer a disappointment-induced breakdown.

 

To be honest, by now all I wish for is to finally know. Whether I end up being dissapointed or happy, at least I'd be able to close that topic for myself. As it stands, I just keep circling between topics like this, looking for news on tumblr every morning, whining to my roommates because I can't calm down until I know something and angsting while lying awake in bed at night.

One day I'll just lie down in the subway and never get up again, I tell you. My body can't take all that uncertainty.

[Mes]

*sigh*

All that speculation that Cass will be hetero-only is making me sad. If that happens, I might suffer a disappointment-induced breakdown.

 

To be honest, by now all I wish for is to finally know. Whether I end up being dissapointed or happy, at least I'd be able to close that topic for myself. As it stands, I just keep circling between topics like this, looking for news on tumblr every morning, whining to my roommates because I can't calm down until I know something and angsting while lying awake in bed at night.

One day I'll just lie down in the subway and never get up again, I tell you. My body can't take all that uncertainty.

 

LOL! Stay strong, comrade!

 

I honestly think they will all be bi or playersexual. I just... don't see how making companions unavailable from the get go to certain players will be a good decision.

[Iron Fist]

I hope Cassandra is playersexual. I want to experience her love with both male and female Inquisitors.

[Ianamus]

If they are going with 6 LI's I'd want to see a 2/2/2 split. That way we would (potentially) finally have some homosexual companions, and the romances could branch into content that isn't really something conversations can be built around if the LI is available to both genders, like having children together or marriage. 

[Blackrising]

If they are going with 6 LI's I'd want to see a 2/2/2 split. That way we would (potentially) finally have some homosexual companions, and the romances could branch into content that isn't really something conversations can be built around if the LI is available to both genders, like having children together or marriage. 

 

But that could be done with bisexual characters as well. I actually think it would be interesting to have different content based on what gender you romance a companion with.
It wouldn't be wildly different content, like actually having a kid or marrying in-game instead of in an epilouge, but then again, I highly doubt they would include it even with purely straight or gay characters. Different dialouges, however, seem very do-able.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I hope the inquisitor doesn't disappear without trace at the end with no information or explanation, makes all romances abit pointless if that keeps happening.

[llandwynwyn]

Make them straight, gay, bi, pansexual or assexual. If Bioware doesn't want to label them, since DA's word doesn't use them anyway, it's okay as well. But playersexual just feels all kinds of wrong.

 

I think playersexual is a pretty offensive concept.

[Ianamus]

But that could be done with bisexual characters as well. I actually think it would be interesting to have different content based on what gender you romance a companion with.
It wouldn't be wildly different content, like actually having a kid or marrying in-game instead of in an epilouge, but then again, I highly doubt they would include it even with purely straight or gay characters. Different dialouges, however, seem very do-able.

 

Most of the content for bisexual romances is kept the same for both genders to save resources. For this reason you would probably never have a full conversation with a bisexual LI Cullen about settling down, getting married and having children, because the conversation would only be applicable to half of the people romancing him. 

[Lourdes Of The Game]

Essentially, the "playersexual" default for all will always be the right one in terms of romanceable characters because it doesn't lock anyone out of anything and allows the player to come up with their own sort of canon for their specific character - and I say this as a queer person. While I have no problems with making certain characters heterosexual or homosexual in canon, I'd prefer them to be NPCs and not companions. I remember how disappointed I was with Miranda being straight in ME because I felt there was a lot of subtext to back up the possibility of her falling for a female Shepard (yes, even someone who desires to get pregnant could still be into women, who knew?).

 

Blah blah blah, etc.

[Blackrising]

Most of the content for bisexual romances is kept the same for both genders to save resources. For this reason you would probably never have a full conversation with a bisexual LI Cullen about settling down, getting married and having children, because the conversation would only be applicable to half of the people romancing him. 

 

The same argument about resources could be made for strictly gay/straight romances. Why do it if only half of the player will get to see it?
And anyway, just because it has been kept the same in previous games, doesn't mean they won't change it for DA:I.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Four LIs with slightly different gender gated conversations would likely still be less resources spent than six fully gender gated LIs, though. Although, honestly, I worry about the children/marriage thing coming across too forced. I'm not sure everyone wanting hetero relationships would love the idea of all their LIs coming on strong on the baby/marriage issue. Additionally, given the various sorts of races and extenuating circumstances (being a warden, can dawrves/qunari even reproduce, etc) that can come up, there's a lot of reasons why they wouldn't bring up children and marriage. Is inter-species marriage any more legal than same sex marriage?

[Ianamus]

The same argument about resources could be made for strictly gay/straight romances. Why do it if only half of the player will get to see it?
And anyway, just because it has been kept the same in previous games, doesn't mean they won't change it for DA:I.

 

But if you've added so much content to a particular romance path that it is widely different between genders it begs the question: why not use those resources to create a new romance. Arguably they had enough resources for Inquisition to create four bisexual romances that varied depending on gender or remove the variations and create a 2/2/2 setup. Both have romance conversations that only some of the players will see, but the second means more LI variation and a more diverse cast.

 

 

Four LIs with slightly different gender gated conversations would likely still be less resources spent than six fully gender gated LIs, though. Although, honestly, I worry about the children/marriage thing coming across too forced. I'm not sure everyone wanting hetero relationships would love the idea of all their LIs coming on strong on the baby/marriage issue. Additionally, given the various sorts of races and extenuating circumstances (being a warden, can dawrves/qunari even reproduce, etc) that can come up, there's a lot of reasons why they wouldn't bring up children and marriage. Is inter-species marriage any more legal than same sex marriage?

 

If all four LI's had enough gender specific dialogue to be noticeably different then that amount of content would have come a long way to writing two new romance paths. As much dialogue as the Mass Effect length ones had, at least.

 

I don't really think children should be brought up necessarily, it was just an example of what the writers could do if they had the freedom to. All bisexual, while good for choice, does limit the charcters in question to being, well, bisexual.  To make a convincing "playersexual" character is even worse because you can't mention any past relationships, or have to change which ones happened and which ones did not, which is just stupid. Merrill had no sexual history and Fenris had forgotten his, so their vagueness was justified, but most characters have had relationships in the past that they can remember, so writing them to be vague could come across as forced quite easily. 

[dragondreamer]

Is inter-species marriage any more legal than same sex marriage?

 

I don't think it's "illegal" exactly, though it isn't considered a socially acceptable thing.  For example, Soris can end up marrying a human woman and it's considered scandalous.

[Blackrising]

But if you've added so much content to a particular romance path that it is widely different between genders it begs the question: why not use those resources to create a new romance. Arguably they had enough resources for Inquisition to create four bisexual romances that varied depending on gender or remove the variations and create a 2/2/2 setup. Both have romance conversations that only some of the players will see, but the second means more LI variation and a more diverse cast.

 

The first, however, means that more people will get to romance the (maybe only) LI they're interested in and will therefore lead to a much happier gaming experience for many people. (It is my subjective view that people who want to be able to romance 'their' LI with whatever gender they please would be happier with a non-restrictive system than people who vote for restrictions would be with a more restrictive system...but really, that's probably just me transferring my own feelings on other people? I just always get the feeling if gender restrictions were put back in, people who like it would give it a passing glance and think 'Hmm, that's better', while no gender restrictions would make people in favour of that approach go crazy happy. It always makes me so sad to think they might favour the first one....but as I said, my view is a very subjective thing. )

 

In the end, it probably comes down to what one prefers. I value the entertainment factor more than slightly more realism or the other arguments supporting restrictions based on gender.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

If all four LI's had enough gender specific dialogue to be noticeably different then that amount of content would have come a long way to writing two new romance paths. As much dialogue as the Mass Effect length ones had, at least.

 

I don't really think children should be brought up necessarily, it was just an example of what the writers could do if they had the freedom to. All bisexual, while good for choice, does limit the charcters in question to being, well, bisexual.  To make a convincing "playersexual" character is even worse because you can't mention any past relationships, or have to change which ones happened and which ones did not, which is just stupid. Merrill had no sexual history and Fenris had forgotten his, so their vagueness was justified, but most characters have had relationships in the past that they can remember, so writing them to be vague could come across as forced quite easily. 

I'm just not that convinced there's that much differential dialog necessary. Some characters will have past relationships that there's no reason they can't talk about them anyway. They decided not to do it in DA2 with Anders, but Zevran, Leliana and Isabela are all pretty clear on their bisexuality and their past experiences with both genders. Some characters, like Merrill and Alistair, don't talk about past relationships because they haven't had past relationships. There's no real reason to assume everyone will have had past partners. 

 

I don't know what would need to be exclusive besides kids and marriage, but those things are also very contextually dependent. That conversation is going to be very different depending on the types of characters involved. It's not based on genders, so much as a lot of issues like race and sometimes faction. If Anders had been heterosexual, for example, I doubt the children and marriage conversation would go down well, considering he's merged with Justice AND he's a grey warden. If you're playing a Qunari Inquisitor, I don't know if anyone even can have children with you and marriage is going to be pretty unlikely. I just don't really see what else needs to be dependent on gender besides these issues and they're already easier to just leave out of the equations, given all the extenuating circumstances outside of gender. 

[Cylan Cooper]

I hope the inquisitor doesn't disappear without trace at the end with no information or explanation, makes all romances abit pointless if that keeps happening.

Aye. This. Digressing from the main topic, but the good thing about the Inquisitor being a leader is that the Inquisition and its agents can be mentioned in the future, they can even say the Inquisitor is the one ordering them to do stuff. Although...in DA2, it could be assumed that Hawke disappeared with his/her love interest and the Warden's disappearance could potentially be with Morrigan through the eluvian.

[Ianamus]

 

 If you're playing a Qunari Inquisitor, I don't know if anyone even can have children with you and marriage is going to be pretty unlikely. I just don't really see what else needs to be dependent on gender besides these issues and they're already easier to just leave out of the equations, given all the extenuating circumstances outside of gender. 

 

That's a good point, though this in particular is something that I do want to see addressed. Not in terms of the romances, but just in general, as we know that all of the other races can interbreed, but not if the Qunari can 

 

 

I'm just not that convinced there's that much differential dialog necessary. Some characters will have past relationships that there's no reason they can't talk about them anyway. They decided not to do it in DA2 with Anders, but Zevran, Leliana and Isabela are all pretty clear on their bisexuality and their past experiences with both genders. Some characters, like Merrill and Alistair, don't talk about past relationships because they haven't had past relationships. There's no real reason to assume everyone will have had past partners. 

 

 

I know, but I have seen people specifically asking for Cassandra to be "playersexual" and that bothers me. I'm fine with her being Bisexual, but given her hinted-at relationship with Regalyan from Dawn of the Seeker I would like whatever happened between them to be at least touched upon in-game, and I really don't want that subplot (that existed in a movie completely separate to Inquisition and that took place long before the game) to be altered or dropped entirely if the Inquisitor is female. 

[Blackrising]

I know, but I have seen people specifically asking for Cassandra to be "playersexual" and that bothers me. I'm fine with her being Bisexual, but given her hinted-at relationship with Regalyan from Dawn of the Seeker I would like whatever happened between them to be at least touched upon in-game, and I really don't want that subplot (that existed in a movie completely separate to Inquisition and that took place long before the game) to be altered or dropped entirely if the Inquisitor is female. 

 

 

The thing is that 'playersexual' is a really abstract term. I used to think we all meant the same by it (which is definitely not the same as 'bisexual'), but ever since that one topic where someone asked for clarification of the term, I have realized that most of us seem to be operating with completely different definitions.

It seems that for many people, 'playersexual' is actually the same as 'bisexual', so I would take any posts asking for Cassandra to be playersexual with a grain of salt.

 

I agree with you, though. IF Cassandra mentions Mage Guy in a romance with a Manquisitor, she should also do so in a romance with Femquisitor. Most of us seem to agree that the LIs being bisexual or left vague is far preferable to true playersexuality.

Then again, I am not at all worried that Bioware would make any of the LIs playersexual. To my knowledge, they have yet to do so in any of the games.

[Ryzaki]

Um...just because someone's playing a heterosexual romance does not mean they're in the least bit interested in settling down and having a family =/ if I'm forced into the "Yay babies!" choices just because my characters female and romancing a male well...I know what romance I will completely avoid!

 

A bisexual romance could have someone talking about settling down and the talk of children is dependent on if the PC is pro having children (and obviously this would be o/s exclusive) maybe a s/s one can talk about adoption and there's a "No thanks you're enough for me." for those players that don't desire children.

 

Unless of course having children is vital to that companions plot...but even in the baby plots we've already had (Alistair being King and Morrigan's DR) there's alternatives for those who would rather not.