2090 réponses à ce sujet

[Chari]

See, I don't understand why the party needs to be reflective of sexual orientation demographics by statistics. I can go call up four bisexual friends and five straight friends right now and go hang out and we're not a reflection of the demographics of south texas, we're just ten random people hanging out.

When it comes to characters they are supposed to be a representation - of the world around them of the way it works. That's why we never get some random farmer with no abilities whatsoever - a character is supposed to catch attention, have some symbolism, meaning, archetype.

Life is random, unfair, messy.

Story is organised, meaningful, clear.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As if saying "but i wan hump that char if i cant it is so unfair!!!111" is a good argument 

This coming from the person who thinks its unfair that Cullen is an LI because he takes up a slot that could have been used for someone you like.

[Former_Fiend]

 

When it comes to characters they are supposed to be a representation - of the world around them of the way it works. That's why we never get some random farmer with no abilities whatsoever - a character is supposed to catch attention, have some symbolism, meaning, archetype.

Life is random, unfair, messy.

Story is organised, meaningful, clear.

 

 

They're supposed to be a representation of organizations, cultures, and mindsets, not a reflection of what percentage of the population swings which way.

[daveliam]

 

When it comes to characters they are supposed to be a representation - of the world around them of the way it works. That's why we never get some random farmer with no abilities whatsoever - a character is supposed to catch attention, have some symbolism, meaning, archetype.

 

 

Wait, so which is it?  Are they supposed to be a representation of the world around them?  Or are we supposed to only have attention catching archetypes?  Those are conflicting statements. 

 

If it is supposed to be representational, then we need to make sure that we have farmers, merchants, prostitutes, dock workers, children, etc. in our party, because they are part of the world as well.

 

If it is not representational, but "attention catching", then having four bisexuals in as the LI's is perfectly acceptable. 

 

So which is it?

[AresKeith]

See, I don't understand why the party needs to be reflective of sexual orientation demographics by statistics. I can go call up four bisexual friends and five straight friends right now and go hang out and we're not a reflection of the demographics of south texas, we're just ten random people hanging out.

 

Well the arguments for representation and being more inclusive ends up revolving romances

[Ianamus]

See, I don't understand why the party needs to be reflective of sexual orientation demographics by statistics. I can go call up four bisexual friends and five straight friends right now and go hang out and we're not a reflection of the demographics of south texas, we're just ten random people hanging out.

 

If a movie or book series with a lot of characters has only straight characters or only white characters I tend to disapprove, because I like to see a wide variety of characters, of all different sexualities and races. 

 

Not only have we not had a homosexual companion in a Dragon Age game (even though we have had at least six bisexual companions), but very few major NPC's are either. I can think of Wade and Herren, and that is it. And that's not good. 

 

Obviously this is not only to do with companions, but as the most prominent characters in the games and the most frequent place character sexuality is explored in Dragon Age they are the obvious contention point.

 

 

Well the arguments for representation and being more inclusive ends up revolving romances

 

Mostly because there are people arguing that if there are six LI's they should all be bisexual or "playersexual" as opposed to a 2/2/2 split. This would be removing a glaringly obvious chance to have different sexualities represented in major characters. 

 

Romance paths also tend to be one of the main places sexuality is explored in the Dragon Age games. We actually don't see that many same gender couples outside of companion romances. There were a few in Origins but none that I can think of in Dragon Age 2, unless you count the Seneschal and Serendipity.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If a movie or book series with a lot of characters has only straight characters or only white characters I tend to disapprove, because I like to see a wide variety of characters, of all different sexualities and races. 

 

Not only have we not had a homosexual companion in a Dragon Age game (even though we have had at least six bisexual companions), but very few major NPC's are either. I can think of Wade and Herren, and that is it. And that's not good. 

 

Obviously this is not only to do with companions, but as the most prominent characters in the games and the most frequent place character sexuality is explored in Dragon Age they are the obvious contention point.

Empress Celine and Briala are a couple more.

[Chari]

I've never seen sexuality as a vital part of a character's...well, character. For example, I never think of Steve Cortez as "that gay guy" but as "my shuttle pilot". Or Miranda as "that straight lady" but instead "my XO". And when has their ever been a quest involving a LIs sexual preference? As for dialogue and character development, a few simple lines make a huge difference. For example a m/f romance with Isabela has a different feel than a f/f romance with Isabela, or a m/f romance with Anders has a different feel than a m/m romance with Anders. All because of a few lines of different dialogue.

For a world which fights so desperately to make equal love possible everywhere shrugging off sexuality like an un-important part of a person is very... hypocritical? 

Sexuality is a very complicated thing, just like any other trait of a person: their taste, their beliefs, their fears and desires. It is influenced by lots of factors: culture in which one lives, biology, upbringing, personal experience. It defines a person's intimate life, with what people they sleep, for what people they fall in love. Depending on how acceptable a specific sexuality is in their culture it defines their relationship with family and friends

Sexuality is important as any other trait in case one wants a complex and believable, practicaly alive character, a digital person even. That's why it should be respected.

 

 

Quote please?  Who, exactly, has made the statement that you quoted?  If you can point to a single person who said the quote that you listed, then I concede.  Otherwise, your statement is a rude exaggeration trying to belittle people who want equal access to romance content. 

If I started pointing fingers that would be rude :3 But I can hint on some gamers who refuse to buy a game just because they can't romance a single character or because netiehr representation or diversity matters - it is all about all LIs being humpable :3

 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

For a world which fights so desperately to make equal love possible everywhere shrugging off sexuality like an un-important part of a person is very... hypocritical? 

Not at all. I don't see people based on their sexual preference. I thought that was a good thing and the goal for sexual equality. Am I wrong? 

[Former_Fiend]

Well the arguments for representation and being more inclusive ends up revolving romances

 

Those arguments are made not within the bubble of Thedas as a setting but within the whole of video games and the fantasy genre, though there is an argument to be made in that mindset in favor for a split, as more representation favors more gay characters as well as bisexual ones.

 

Personally I support the bisexual model not due to representation but simply because I'm in favor of anything that gives the people more options, and because I reject the argument that the different sexualities makes them more defined characters because I reject the notion that sexuality has any meaningful impact on one's personality.

[daveliam]

 

If a movie or book series with a lot of characters has only straight characters or only white characters I tend to disapprove, because I like to see a wide variety of characters, of all different sexualities and races. 

 

Not only have we not had a homosexual companion in a Dragon Age game (even though we have had at least six bisexual companions), but very few major NPC's are either. I can think of Wade and Herren, and that is it. And that's not good. 

 

Obviously this is not only to do with companions, but as the most prominent characters in the games and the most frequent place character sexuality is explored in Dragon Age they are the obvious contention point.

 

 

 

Mostly because there are people arguing that if there are six LI's they should all be bisexual or "playersexual" as opposed to a 2/2/2 split. This would be removing a glaringly obvious chance to have different sexualities representing in major characters. 

 

Romance paths also tend to be one of the main places sexuality is explored in the Dragon Age games. We actually don't see that many same gender couples outside of companion romances. There were a few in Origins but none that I can think of in Dragon Age 2, unless you count the Senechal and Serendipity.

 

 

I think this is a totally valid argument.  The problem is that neither the all bisexual LI approach and the playersexual approach fix it.  It's why I support the 2/2/2 approach.  However, if there are only 4 LI's, then I'd rather see all bisexual because with 4 LI's with varying sexualities, someone's not going to get choice in their LI.

[Ianamus]

Empress Celine and Briala are a couple more.

 

Yes, but I was talking soleley about characters appearing in the games. There was a gay couple in The Calling as well, I think. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yes, but I was talking soleley about the games. There was also a gay couple in The Calling as well, I think. 

Ah, well soon enough they'll be in the games. 

 

There is also Branka and Hespith, though the former could be questionable.

[daveliam]

 

For a world which fights so desperately to make equal love possible everywhere shrugging off sexuality like an un-important part of a person is very... hypocritical? 

Sexuality is a very complicated thing, just like any other trait of a person: their taste, their beliefs, their fears and desires. It is influenced by lots of factors: culture in which one lives, biology, upbringing, personal experience. It defines a person's intimate life, with what people they sleep, for what people they fall in love. Depending on how acceptable a specific sexuality is in their culture it defines their relationship with family and friends

Sexuality is important as any other trait in case one wants a complex and believable, practicaly alive character, a digital person even. That's why it should be respected.

 

I agree that sexuality is important, to some degree.  I don't think that it's as important as some people are making it out to be, but I do think that it's important to some degree and it's why I can't support playersexuality, where we actively change the character's sexuality.  However, I maintain, that we've never had it before in DA, so I'm not concerned about it, especially given that there is no indication that they are going to implement it in DA: I.

 

If I started pointing fingers that would be rude :3 But I can hint on some gamers who refuse to buy a game just because they can't romance a single character or because netiehr representation or diversity matters - it is all about all LIs being humpable :3

 

So then, that's a no?  You are just exaggerating other people's opinions and trying to make them look petty.  Good to know.

[Abelas Forever!]

Not "more different stories" just "different stories".  It's assuming that all of the bisexual stories are the same, when they can and should be just as varied from each other as two straight stories are. 

I mean it that there are more different stories because you have more options to create stories. I'm not assuming that bisexual stories are the same. I'm just saying that if you have straight, bisexual and gay companions then there are chances that there are more different stories than if they all would be bisexual. For example there are certain amount of stories that can be told if the character is bisexual. Then when you add to those stories the straight and gay stories there will be more stories. And I think that there are certain stories that can be either told by straight, gay or bisexual character. Of course if you have three companions and they can tell you three stories the sexuality doesn't matter but overall there are more different stories available when you have more variation.

[Chari]

Wait, so which is it?  Are they supposed to be a representation of the world around them?  Or are we supposed to only have attention catching archetypes?  Those are conflicting statements. 

 

If it is supposed to be representational, then we need to make sure that we have farmers, merchants, prostitutes, dock workers, children, etc. in our party, because they are part of the world as well.

 

If it is not representational, but "attention catching", then having four bisexuals in as the LI's is perfectly acceptable. 

 

So which is it?

Both. In most types characters are based on some archetype, they can become different but they become as a sketch: a number of basic trait, a general idea. Then they become deeper, complex. 

Do not mix archetypes with stereotypes: a honourable cold warrior with a soft heart is an archetype: Sten, Javik, Shale. A tevinter character always being a blood mage is a stereotype

That's the thing... we have, but they are background characters, we have quests in which we can see them, their life. Not much but enough to get a gist. The main characters are supposed to stand out - otherwise they would simply... bore a player. 

characters through their attitude, personality, habits etc are supposed to show us something important about the world: Lelianna she grew up In Orlais, she loves fashion and talks about it. Zevran grew up in Antiva and it is also shown in his general attitude: money, women/men, wine, a bit cold hearted yet very hot. Sten is also a pretty classic qunari: stoic yet not heartless, wise yet stubborn. 

Even if characters are different from the average citizen of their country, they still have these roots which influence their appearance, their attitude, their cultural point of view. Fenris grew up as a slave and he struggles with that old part of him even when he becomes free.

Through romance we can learn about courting rituals, marriage rituals, how family works etc.

It is important, that's why it should be treated with care, love and well-written development. 

[daveliam]

I mean it that there are more different stories because you have more options to create stories. I'm not assuming that bisexual stories are the same. I'm just saying that if you have straight, bisexual and gay companions then there are chances that there are more different stories than if they all would be bisexual. For example there are certain amount of stories that can be told if the character is bisexual. Then when you add to those stories the straight and gay stories there will be more stories. And I think that there are certain stories that can be either told by straight, gay or bisexual character. Of course if you have three companions and they can tell you three stories the sexuality doesn't matter but overall there are more different stories available when you have more variation.

 

I guess I'm just not following you.  What kind of story can be told by a straight man and straight woman that couldn't be told by a straight man and a bisexual woman?  Or a bisexual man and a bisexual woman?  (outside, of course, just them saying, "Hey, we're both straight!")  Any story that could be told in a heterosexual relationship between two straight people could also be told in a heterosexual relationship between two bisexual people.  Same thing with two bisexual people in a gay relationship.  It's pretty similar to two gay people in a relationship.

[Ianamus]

 

I think this is a totally valid argument.  The problem is that neither the all bisexual LI approach and the playersexual approach fix it.  It's why I support the 2/2/2 approach.  However, if there are only 4 LI's, then I'd rather see all bisexual because with 4 LI's with varying sexualities, someone's not going to get choice in their LI.

 

Yes, but at the moment 6 LI's is looking more likely. I'm only getting a bit hissy about it because of people who are saying that if there are 6 LI's they want them all to be bisexual. It feels like the people who are supposedly for representation of different sexualities in games are now insisting that all characters be bisexual because they want more romance objects to choose from.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

Both. In most types characters are based on some archetype, they can become different but they become as a sketch: a number of basic trait, a general idea. Then they become deeper, complex. 

Do not mix archetypes with stereotypes: a honourable cold warrior with a soft heart is an archetype: Sten, Javik, Shale. A tevinter character always being a blood mage is a stereotype

That's the thing... we have, but they are background characters, we have quests in which we can see them, their life. Not much but enough to get a gist. The main characters are supposed to stand out - otherwise they would simply... bore a player. 

characters through their attitude, personality, habits etc are supposed to show us something important about the world: Lelianna she grew up In Orlais, she loves fashion and talks about it. Zevran grew up in Antiva and it is also shown in his general attitude: money, women/men, wine, a bit cold hearted yet very hot. Sten is also a pretty classic qunari: stoic yet not heartless, wise yet stubborn. 

Even if characters are different from the average citizen of their country, they still have these roots which influence their appearance, their attitude, their cultural point of view. Fenris grew up as a slave and he struggles with that old part of him even when he becomes free.

Through romance we can learn about courting rituals, marriage rituals, how family works etc.

It is important, that's why it should be treated with care, love and well-written development. 

 

 

So I ask why do they have to have set sexualities when them being available to everyone still accomplishes this? I mean, a couple lines being changed to reflect that they are dating either a male or female character is all you need. 

 

 

 

[Chari]

So then, that's a no?  You are just exaggerating other people's opinions and trying to make them look petty.  Good to know.

 

Well ,if you so want to know then sure, here it is

But don't call me a snitch after that - you asked, I answered

 

 

It's not the only reason, but I wouldn't buy the game without it, no

And I explained why it doesn't matter to me how many options I have if I cannot have the option I actually want.

 

​It is not ludicrous if the particular LI setup leads to dissatisfaction and frustration

 

Oh, and Tumblr, if Cassandra will turn out to be purely straight, dat place will blow up like no Anders' bomb could ever blow up

[Former_Fiend]

 

 

 

Yes, but at the moment 6 LI's is looking more likely. I'm only getting a bit hissy about it because of people are saying if there are 6 LI's they want them all to be bisexual. It feels like the people who are supposedly for representation of different sexualities in games are now insisting that all characters be bisexual because they want more romance objects to choose from.

 

 

I am very much saying that I want more options to choose from.

[AresKeith]

I think this is a totally valid argument.  The problem is that neither the all bisexual LI approach and the playersexual approach fix it.  It's why I support the 2/2/2 approach.  However, if there are only 4 LI's, then I'd rather see all bisexual because with 4 LI's with varying sexualities, someone's not going to get choice in their LI.

 

I can understand that reasoning

 

Though with 9 companions and the possiblilty of Cullen being a non-companion, it looks like there's gonna be 6 LIs. IMO atleast

[daveliam]

Well ,if you so want to know then sure, here it is

But don't call me a snitch after that - you asked, I answered

Oh, and Tumblr, if Cassandra will turn out to be purely straight, dat place will blow up like no Anders' bomb could ever blow up

 

Yeah, so those are posts of people calmly explaining their thoughts.  Your "quote" that provided earlier was:  "but i wan hump that char if i cant it is so unfair!!!111".  So, again, you were just exaggerating what other people were saying in order to try to make them look ridiculous.  People are allowed to make whatever decisions they want about which games they are going to buy.  Why does that give you the right to mock them for it?

[Abelas Forever!]

I guess I'm just not following you.  What kind of story can be told by a straight man and straight woman that couldn't be told by a straight man and a bisexual woman?  Or a bisexual man and a bisexual woman?  (outside, of course, just them saying, "Hey, we're both straight!")  Any story that could be told in a heterosexual relationship between two straight people could also be told in a heterosexual relationship between two bisexual people.  Same thing with two bisexual people in a gay relationship.  It's pretty similar to two gay people in a relationship.

I mean that only straight woman can told her experiences as a straight woman and not wanting to flirt, date or romance other women. Straight woman can tell you that she wants to be seen as straight woman not bisexual one. Only gay man can tell what is like to be a gay man and not a bisexual man.

[daveliam]

I mean that only straight woman can told her experiences as a straight woman and not wanting to flirt, date or romance other women. Straight woman can tell you that she wants to be seen as straight woman not bisexual one. Only gay man can tell what is like to be a gay man and not a bisexual man.

 

Okay, I guess I understand that, but I don't really see how it's relevant to this conversation because I don't think that Bioware has ever had a companion who talked about their perspective in terms of their sexuality.  And I also don't know if there are many people who are asking for this content.  I guess it's possible that they could implement this in the future, though.  I'm just not sure what that would add to the story.  Like, what would it add to have Cassandra (for example) say, "As a straight woman, I think....."  Or "Well since I'm straight, this has been my experience....."