373 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

Mod tools challenges come from a variety of factors, including (but not limited to) legal issues as well as technical and support challenges (while people may think that us simply firing it over the wall and leaving you all to use it would be sufficient, I am actually skeptical of that).

 

 

There may also be file format challenges depending on whether or not our bundling system is performed in a particular way to minimize load times, particularly for streaming assets).  For instance, since our scripting system is now visual, there's no need (apart from spending time to provide it exclusively for the purposes of modding, which is a non-trivial cost especially if it comes at expense of taking time away from the main game) for us to provide the scripts in a file format that is in any way readable or anything like that.  For example, Paradox games provide the scripts in a plain text style format, which is useful for what they seek to do with the game while also making it mod friendly.  If we're provided a system that doesn't already do that, then we'd have to evaluate how much effort it would be to actively support it so that the file formats are easier to read.

[TurretSyndrome]

I didn't know this was that serious that it needed "support" lol.

 

If that's the case, I'm surprised console gamers don't seek support for it.

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just saying it's fair and I wouldn't be shocked if there was no modding because EA is not mod-friendly and I don't expect this new engine to provide you with that option.

 

I was being sarcastic, guess that didn't work. I'm well aware of who mod support applies to in the end, so asking for support from the entire community would be odd, to say the least, and that was not what I doing in this thread.

[CybAnt1]

Having the character state at the server? 

 

As was just stated, Turret & I were only discussing how MMOs like WoW do it. 

 

I do believe that just like the previous DAs, characters in DA:I will be represented by files on your local hard drive. Thus, it will be possible to write a character editor. How easy it will be - different question. 

[CybAnt1]

I don't think it's gonna happen. Sorry guys. Welcome to the rest of our worlds.

 

What's not going to happen? Mods?

 

Dragon Age 2 had no toolset. There are still mods for it. Hundreds. 

 

http://www.nexusmods...ds/categories/?

 

However: nowhere nearly as many as DAO, which had waaaaay more, thanks to the Toolset. Also, BTW, many kinds of mods don't exist, notice there are zero in certain categories. Nobody was ever able to write a 4th class mod for DA2, whereas they did for DAO. 

 

And again, there was a certain advantage for DA2 modders, as DAO and DA2 used the same Engine, and therefore experience in writing mods for DA1 could be translated to DA2. The whole new Frostbite Engine means they are starting from scratch. 

 

As I said, whether the game "supports" mods or not is based on different questions ... will there be an override folder? (I think so, but we won't know until we know, as with all other things.) Will there be a semi-official subforum right here for DAI modders to discuss file types and structures, etc? And, as Allan just discussed above, if it's all a reverse-engineering situation, will the devs provide any "unofficial" assistance as to documenting or decoding file types? (Of course, absolutely, there may be a lot of IP and licensing situations preventing them from doing so, as he just said. And yes, I absolutely understand why they might not make efforts to make things understandable to modders, at the expense of making the game.) 

 

Having had 'informal relations' with people working on BG2 modding (which means I didn't have the programming knowledge to write the tools and actually DO modding, but I helped in one case write documentation for how to use a modding tool) ... I can say this, CRPGs will inevitably invite people to try, and they will eventually succeed. Toolset -- they'll happen quickly. Unofficial support -- it will happen faster. No support whatsoever -- still will happen, but it will take longer. 

 

It all grows out of "playing the game the way you want to play it." 

 

It's also why I hope, as I've said, DA:I will continue the tradition of giving PC players access to what some people call "cheat codes" but I prefer to refer to as the "development/customization console". 

 

http://dragonage.wik...(Dragon_Age_II)

 

A rather powerful tool for customizing your game experience without use of mods. 

 

You could use that to "cheat" as some people prefer/refer, I used it to ... "customize". 

[TurretSyndrome]

We should also consider the fact that just because there might not be any mod support at launch doesn't mean no mod support period. 

[Baboontje]

I mod the crap out of everything. The more mods I add to my override, the more complete I feel. *moehahaha* I collect them like precious gems! :')

 

Anyway, I'm absolutely rooting for future mods. I only hope they won't be as difficult to install as ME3. I made a boo-boo there and haven't been able to fix the crashing even with making all the files vanilla again. *sigh*

The reason I still play Origins is usually when I have found some new mods, even after all this time. And then I'll take it for a spin. :>

[CybAnt1]

Correct. There is an argument that enabling and allowing mods is in developer's own interest, especially content mods.

 

If modders are good enough to actually add quests, areas, classes, spells, items, or NPCs ... then that adds replayability because sometimes people will want to replay another play through with the newly modded content. (*)

 

People tend to be more likely to buy games that they know have high replayability, so ... mods just make sense. 

 

(*) That said, I absolutely understand that while they might want to, licensing/IP issues mean they can't do it ... at least not offer mod support overtly. 

[Banxey]

I originally played Origins on Xbox and bought it on PC just so I could use mods for it. Now that the next gen is here, I am considering switching to PC and a big part of that is due to the mods I've seen over the years. It would be nice to know that there is a future for modding in Bioware titles as they have made some of my favourite games. 

 

Even if they can't do it now, I hope they consider doing something toward the end of the life of the game to extend it.

[The Antagonist]

Most people don't even finish their first playthrough. Why would they care about replayability?

[Realmzmaster]

Licensing issues will always come up when a developer makes use of third party software. It has to be remembered that the engine is only one part of the development. There are other tools at work that require licensing and cannot be given away. 

 

Bioware owned the Infinity, Aurora and Eclipse engines. Bioware could make toolkits for them. DA2 used a modified Eclipse engine called Lycuim. Lycuim (from what I can tell) used more third party software and modifications. 

 

DAI will use Frostbite 3 which one division of EA has been requested to let other divisions use.  The tools DICE uses may not be ready for any use outside of EA's divisions. It allows DICE to exert control over the engine no matter what divisions use it. Also any modifications to the engine flow back to DICE to be included in the next rendition. 

 

The question is what other tools is Bioware using that preclude a toolkit and is it economic feasible for Bioware to devote time to it which may take time from polishing the game.

 

There is always a cost versus benefit analysis being done. The benefits of a toolkit have to outweigh the costs in resources. Time is a big resource. 

[CybAnt1]

Most people don't even finish their first playthrough. Why would they care about replayability?

 

This is a frequently asserted claim. It's one I wonder about the methodology for, and how the study was conducted. I assume it was a survey of players. How was the data sample taken? Etc. I will not disagree that the the BSN is unrepresentative of players as a whole, and so the large number of people here who play the game multiple times can't represent accurately the larger player base. 

 

Still, at the end of the day, even if it's the case that only 25% will play more than once, well, it can mean x number of additional sales among that segment of buyers. Of course, yes, this brings us to cost-benefit analysis, if we want to be cold and calculating about it. 

[Realmzmaster]

Most people don't even finish their first playthrough. Why would they care about replayability?

 

Unfortunately this point tends to be true. The toolkit is basically PC only and is used to extend the life of the game on that platform. It does allow gamers to try their hand at development and get to know it is not as easy as they may think depending on the type of mod. But it is easier than using a hex editor (hexadecimal editor). I love that number system along with octal and binary.

[Divine Justinia V]

What's not going to happen? Mods?

 

Dragon Age 2 had no toolset. There are still mods for it. Hundreds.

 

Dragon Age 2 wasn't Frostbite 3. You're talking about little league and major league here, EA & DICE are not into all that.

[Allan Schumacher]

This is a frequently asserted claim. It's one I wonder about the methodology for, and how the study was conducted. I assume it was a survey of players. How was the data sample taken? Etc. I will not disagree that the the BSN is unrepresentative of players as a whole, and so the large number of people here who play the game multiple times can't represent accurately the larger player base.

 

Telemetry is common, and it's actually something that achievements deliver as well (for those that wonder why on Earth a game would possibly include an achievement for something that must be done to complete the game).

 

 

While the information CAN be incorrect (which is bad), and there is some level of sampling bias for people that decide to opt out, or don't connect and stuff like that.

[Namea]

Either way, I feel that inquisition will be a wonderful game that will stand on its own with or without mods.

 

I LOVE modding DA: O and DA2, I really do, but at the same time I would play either of them vanilla with no complaints because they're amazing even then. My first playthrough of ANY game is always vanilla before I ever consider mods. Inquisition would be no different. 

 

So I guess my overall opinion on the matter is Yes, I'd love mods but if not, I'm still totally psyched for this game!

[CybAnt1]

Allan, I'd be terribly curious about how the non-finish in CRPGs compares to action games. By that, I mean, I bet there are a lot of people out there who play a shooter like Call of Duty or Battlefield 4, and never finish all the levels in the single player campaign either. I'm genuinely curious whether that percentage is higher or lower vs. a CRPG like Dragon Age. (Problem too could be they never start the SP campaign because they have no interest in anything but the MP, or don't finish it because, same reason.) 

 

Of course, it might not be tracked ... like, does the achievement of finishing those shooters "report" to the developers that the player has finished? 

 

A lot of people assert people never finish CRPG's because of their complexity. But I'm betting a lot of people don't finish games, because they just don't have the patience to finish all the hours of any game that's lengthy - regardless of simplicity or complexity.

[CybAnt1]

Dragon Age 2 wasn't Frostbite 3. You're talking about little league and major league here, EA & DICE are not into all that.

 

The main evolution from Eclipse/Lycium to Frostbite is graphical. The main thing Frostbite is updating is the graphics, animation, and physics, to make it all more realistic. 

 

Personally, I suspect the things some people want to "touch" or edit in DAI are still in 2DA files (essentially 2 dimensional arrays like an Excel spreadsheet), like how many points you get when you level, or the experience points you get for certain things. For the record, Bioware used 2DA files in BG2, in NWN1, DA1 & 2, and I feel safe betting they'll continue to use them in DAI.   Oh, I could be wrong, but I am calling this as a safe bet. 

 

(For the record, Bioware documents the filetype here:)

http://social.biowar...t/index.php/2DA

 

Everybody talks about the difficulty modding Battlefield 4. But here's the deal. That game was heavily focused on multiplayer matches. It was practically the main focus of it, though there was a SP campaign. For obvious reasons, when MP is the focus of your game, you'll do what you can to discourage mod use. So yes, they definitely took a position of "no official support". DAI may have MP (we still don't know) but I think we can all agree given how little they've discussed it to date, it will NOT be the focus of the game. I do not believe the Frostbite engine was built to defeat modding, but BF4, built around the engine, was coded as a whole to discourage it. There's a difference. 

 

DAI does not have the incentive to disincentivize mods the way that Battlefield 4 did. 

 

But for those who say you can't do it in BF4 -- get schooled. This guy did it.

http://www.thetechga...p=32388753.html

 

It can be done. It may take hex editing, and patience, and your eyes may have glazed over his description, but it can be done. Homey even seems to have changed his field of view on his Xbox!

 

Because this is a new graphics engine, the way things are graphically represented in files will change the most. Thus, much as I hate to say it, the things that might be hardest to do are new texture or appearance mods. 

 

Also, it should be noted that there are generally less mods for shooters like BF4 than CRPGs in general ... why? Because there are less things people are interested in changing. So there might be fewer mods because there are fewer things people want to change. 

 

Everybody talks about the texture pack mod for BF4 which took a year to do. Well, like I keep saying, new graphic engine = new ways of representing texture data in graphical files = new challenges. 

 

Honestly, doing basic gameplay mods, like changing how many attribute points you get per level, will still be pretty easy. 

[CybAnt1]

Battlefield 3 Night Time Mod looks phenomenal

http://www.pcgamesn....ooks-phenomenal

 

A wizard going by the name of Kiwidog has managed to mod Battlefield 3. Not only that, the modified game works on multiplayer. And on top of that, the night time mod he's created makes Battlefield 3 look better than ever and makes the INVR scope actually worth using.

 

(full story at link)

 

Battlefield 3 ran the earlier iteration of the engine, Frostbite 2. 

 

But ... you'll say ... what about Frostbite 3?

 

Need for Speed: Rivals is running on Frostbite 3.

 

Need For Speed: Rivals 60FPS Fix Is Out

http://www.nextpower...fix-is-out.html

 

Game modders unhappy with the framerate on the new Need for Speed title being locked at 30FPS decided to do something about it, and have been mostly successful. Following the use of this mod (which is a simple command line), PC gamers can enjoy NFS: Rivals at 60FPS, given their computer's graphics cards are good enough to handle the pressure. 

 

[end]

 

See ... it can be done. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well, so much for hoping for a game without mods for a change. 

[CybAnt1]

Dunno ... I can't see why one would hope it won't have them. Nobody who can run them is forced to use them.

 

In theory, they could affect multiplayer, if the game incorporates some kind of multiplayer -- but we don't know that - yet. 

 

If it's cooperative instead of competitive/PvP multiplayer, people might not care (although they might get bothered at the one person in the party who has 10,000 HP while everybody else has 200). 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Dunno ... I can't see why one would hope it won't have them. Nobody who can run them is forced to use them.

 

In theory, they could affect multiplayer, if the game incorporates some kind of multiplayer -- but we don't know that - yet. 

 

If it's cooperative instead of competitive/PvP multiplayer, people might not care (although they might get bothered at the one person in the party who has 10,000 HP while everybody else has 200). 

It more the "Ooh, look at how much better our games our with our mods, you filthy console peasants" that inevitably happens with modded games. It gets really annoying and depressing. 

[CybAnt1]

Well, what can I tell you. If it's true to previous games, 70% of the mods will be some variation on making the companions run around naked (without the small clothes). Or making them have anything from bigger biceps to purple hair.  

 

If you think you're missing out on much ... 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well, what can I tell you. If it's true to previous games, 70% of the mods will be some variation on making the companions run around naked (without the small clothes). Or making them have anything from bigger biceps to purple hair.  

 

If you think you're missing out on much ... 

Like I said, it's not so much the mods themselves, it's more the arrogance of the people who use them that has given me a negative opinion on the whole practice. 

 

Of course, I know not everyone acts that way but enough do.