373 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

This stat typically defines gamer as someone who plays games. Facebook games would count.

And by that measure, there are more PC gamers than there are console gamers. But console games have a much higher market penetration. A larger percentage of console gamers overall buy any given console game. Each PC game reaches far fewer PC gamers.

Yes, but by that same gap in logic, mobile phone gamers outnumber Facebook gamers, so all games should be released on phones instead of PCs or consoles. Which is not accurate to the gaming industry in the least.

If we're talking about how much developers should pay heed to PC gamers because they represent a legion that is ignored at their own peril... this is just not true. ESPECIALLY when discussing a niche feature such as the use of a modkit. There are MANY arguments for including mod support and mod kits that are perfectly valid and worthwhile without some gamers trying to puff up their chests and make PC gamers sound like a massive source of sales that are being scared off by no mod support. Empirical evidence just doesn't support that.

[Fast Jimmy]

Yes there are more PC gamers than console gamers,, but let's look at the specific genre of crpgs. I will use Skyrim as an example. I will use the VGChartz numbers for reference. Skyrim sold roughly 3.40 million on the PC which is impressive. Skyrim sold 7.89 million on the Xbox and 5.4 million on the PS3. Combined total for consoles is 13.29 million or a 4 to 1 ratio.

The number of PC gamers may be vast, but they are not buying the PC crpgs in the numbers that the console users are buying.

In fact even with other genres PC users do not make up a significant market compared to consoles. Let's pick on Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3. The number of PC sales is 1.62 million. Xbox sales: 14.19 million PS3 sales: 12.79 million. The disparity is even larger roughly a 13 to 1 ratio.

Exactly. If you're talking about MMOs and social games, sure... PC gamers beat out console gamers. Mostly because consoles don't have many MMOs and have zero Facebook games.

In the arena consoles do participate, which is the AAA game industry (the exact industry we are talking about with a Bioware game), consoles dominate. PC gamers are the minority. Arguing any different is really just playing a shell game with phony numbers when we all know the reality of the situation.

[slimgrin]

^

In nearly every game that comes out for PC and consoles, PC sales are surpassed by both Playstation and XBox. This was true for Bioware games, both DA:O with a modkit and all the rest without.

It is not being dismissive, it is being realistic. If PC gamers are the smallest demographic and the number of games that realistically offer modkits is a subset of that already small pool, then it is not nearly as huge of a deal to not offer the feature as some would make it out to be.

No one is underestimating PC gamers. It is you who are OVER estimating them.

 

It is being dismissive since your arguments are based almost purely on quantitative and not qualitative value. And your idea for monetizing mods would be a minefield. It just wouldn't work. Too many mods with with drastic quality and variety - which is actually a strength. If it were to be quality controlled and monetized, you'd be neutering the whole process and reducing the type of mods available.

[Setiweb]

How many people today are still playing Dragon Age 2 with so very few mods available to them?

 

Very few mods for DA2?  You must have never heard of Nexusmods then.

[Realmzmaster]

Very few mods for DA2?  You must have never heard of Nexusmods then.

I do believe that Lord Raijin is talking in comparison to DAO . Also does DA2 have mods that add quests like Alley of Murders, Castle Cousland, Emissary, Temple of Vulak, Spell School Divine and Advanced Tactics?

[CybAnt1]

Yes there are more PC gamers than console gamers,, but let's look at the specific genre of crpgs. I will use Skyrim as an example. I will use the VGChartz numbers for reference. Skyrim sold roughly 3.40 million on the PC which is impressive. Skyrim sold 7.89 million on the Xbox and 5.4 million on the PS3. Combined total for consoles is 13.29 million or a 4 to 1 ratio. 

 

The number of PC gamers may be vast, but they are not buying the PC crpgs in the numbers that the console users are buying.

 

In fact even with other genres PC users do not make up a significant market compared to consoles.  Let's pick on Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3.  The number of PC sales is 1.62 million. Xbox sales: 14.19 million PS3 sales: 12.79 million. The disparity is even larger roughly a 13 to 1 ratio.

 

BTW, what's also otherwise important about your data is something I've pointed out earlier, that with shooters there's no denying the console game buyers way outnumber the PC buyers (by 13:1), but with CRPGs, this disparity is far less (4:1). 

 

This is why I point out, when it comes to a variety of issues, a CRPG developer shouldn't shaft PC gamers, simply because while there's no denying we may not be the majority of the market, we're still a fairly large market segment.

 

In any case, there seems to be a clear indication they will be paying more attention to PC gamers again with DAI, which makes me happy.  

[Realmzmaster]

BTW, what's also otherwise important about your data is something I've pointed out earlier, that with shooters there's no denying the console game buyers way outnumber the PC buyers (by 13:1), but with CRPGs, this disparity is far less (4:1). 

 

This is why I point out, when it comes to a variety of issues, a CRPG developer shouldn't shaft PC gamers, simply because while there's no denying we may not be the majority of the market, we're still a fairly large market segment.

 

In any case, there seems to be a clear indication they will be paying more attention to PC gamers again with DAI, which makes me happy.

 

I agree with you, but the point is to ask politely. We have to remember the answer may be no for various reasons. That is an answer we may have to accept for the time being.

[Fast Jimmy]

It is being dismissive since your arguments are based almost purely on quantitative and not qualitative value. And your idea for monetizing mods would be a minefield. It just wouldn't work. Too many mods with with drastic quality and variety - which is actually a strength. If it were to be quality controlled and monetized, you'd be neutering the whole process and reducing the type of mods available.

Not every mod would be quality controlled. Only the ones where the modder elected to charge for them. Free mods would still be an option and could be of an quality level.

If that's your only complaint, I think it is resolved fairly easily - it would work exactly like mods today are, just with the added component of built in billing and digital right management for distribution and unwanted use of paid mods without purchase.

[Setiweb]

I do believe that Lord Raijin is talking in comparison to DAO . Also does DA2 have mods that add quests like Alley of Murders, Castle Cousland, Emissary, Temple of Vulak, Spell School Divine and Advanced Tactics?

There are currently 891 mods for DA2 that I can see.  I don't use extra quest mods even for DAO.  I know there are a bunch of mods that change ability trees but I'm not sure if the game's combat design would even accomodate any advanced tactics.  Might break the "complexity" of the game.

[Realmzmaster]

There are currently 891 mods for DA2 that I can see.  I don't use extra quest mods even for DAO.  I know there are a bunch of mods that change ability trees but I'm not sure if the game's combat design would even accomodate any advanced tactics.  Might break the "complexity" of the game.

 

891 mods and not one quest mod. That is telling in and of itself. The number of DAO mods dwarfs the number of DA2 mods. The one reason there are some DA2 mods is because Bioware did not change the data file structure. The data files for the frostbite 3 engine will probably not be the same.

[Ryzaki]

You do realize DAO is also far more popular than DA2 right?

 

Skyrim mods vastly dwarfs Fallout New Vegas mods for instance.

[Allan Schumacher]

You do realize DAO is also far more popular than DA2 right?

 

Skyrim mods vastly dwarfs Fallout New Vegas mods for instance.

 

[Ryzaki]

XD Tis true though!

 

Edit: Though yes I'm not suggesting DA2 wouldn't have more mods if it did have a toolset like DAO did. I'm pretty sure it would. I'm just saying DAO's vast difference isn't only because it's easier to mod. (Though I doubt we could've gotten all the lovely dialogue fixes we got without the toolset).

[Allan Schumacher]

I agree, success helps both the creation and proliferation of mods.

 

It's funny that people point out DayZ and stuff, when I go more old school and point to Counterstrike.  Which probably has knock on effects on shifting Valve's focus and ultimately providing additional impetus for something like Steam!

[Fast Jimmy]

I agree, success helps both the creation and proliferation of mods.

It's funny that people point out DayZ and stuff, when I go more old school and point to Counterstrike. Which probably has knock on effects on shifting Valve's focus and ultimately providing additional impetus for something like Steam!

And now Steam supports mod communities with their Workshop features.

It's all so circular. It's so meta, man.

[Allan Schumacher]

For better or worse, Valve's gaming business model appears to be one that buys game mods and makes them retail.

 

(Not that I'd blame them, since I suspect Steam dwarfs any ROI that a game would make).

[Fast Jimmy]

For better or worse, Valve's gaming business model appears to be one that buys game mods and makes them retail.

(Not that I'd blame them, since I suspect Steam dwarfs any ROI that a game would make).

Yeah, the only real reason I could see Valve having to make a game would be if they released the Steam Machine and, to promote it, made Half Life 3 a PC/Steam Machine exclusive.

[Realmzmaster]

You do realize DAO is also far more popular than DA2 right?

 

Skyrim mods vastly dwarfs Fallout New Vegas mods for instance.

DAO has 2098 mods of which 53 (roughly 2,5%) are quest/adventure mods. DA2 has 934 mods of which 0 are quest/adventure mods. 

Fallout: New Vegas has 13,008 mods of which 270 (roughly 2%) are Quest/adventure mods. Skyrim has 31,337 mods of which 459 (roughly 1,5%) are quest/adventure mods. Numberwise Skyrim has more quest/adventure mods. Fallout: New Vegas on the other hand percentage wise has more quest/adventure mods.

 

Even allowing for popularity of DAO one would assume that DA2 would at least have 10 quest/adventure mods. It has 0.

[Ryzaki]

DAO has 2098 mods of which 53 (roughly 2,5%) are quest/adventure mods. DA2 has 934 mods of which 0 are quest/adventure mods. 

Fallout: New Vegas has 13,008 mods of which 270 (roughly 2%) are Quest/adventure mods. Skyrim has 31,337 mods of which 459 (roughly 1,5%) are quest/adventure mods. Numberwise Skyrim has more quest/adventure mods. Fallout: New Vegas on the other hand percentage wise has more quest/adventure mods.

 

Even allowing for popularity of DAO one would assume that DA2 would at least have 10 quest/adventure mods. It has 0.

 

Fallout NV had no where near the amount of backlash that DA2 did. In fact it was rather liked.

 

I later said I believe DA2 would've had more mods. But attributing the low number solely due to it's low modibility I felt was unfair.

 

But yes I do believe the more intricate mods are impossible on DA2 because of the lack of toolkit. (Thus my comparison to the massive dialogue fixes that DAO got). Simply that the vast discrepancy had more factors than just how easy the game was to mod.

[Setiweb]

I wouldn't go for percentages unless you want to say X game has 10 mods which are all quest/adventure.  100% yet not indicative to how popular the game is.

 

The way I look at DA2 mods is at least there were people willing enough to learn every path around the toolset void to put out the mods they did.  "You'll never be able to do that without a toolset", is something I still hear.

 

I'm all in for DAI modding and would love BW to release tools for it.  If that doesn't happen then hopefully we'll have some modding gurus who will be able to create some tools for us.

[Realmzmaster]

The point is that DA2 was an offshoot of the Eclipse engine and the number of mods was limited especially adventure/quest mods. The Frostbite 3 engine is different. Bioware had to create new tools to work with the engine. Other games that have been built on the engine have few if any mods. Without a modkit the number of mods may be greatly reduced even if DAI is a great success. 

If DAI or at best average or disappoints the game will see even fewer mods.

 

I am not saying there will be no mods, but they may take a while to come out since the modding gurus will basically be building their own tools.

[Ryzaki]

The point is that DA2 was an offshoot of the Eclipse engine and the number of mods was limited especially adventure/quest mods. The Frostbite 3 engine is different. Bioware had to create new tools to work with the engine. Other games that have been built on the engine have few if any mods. Without a modkit the number of mods may be greatly reduced even if DAI is a great success. 

If DAI or at best average or disappoints the game will see even fewer mods.

 

I am not saying there will be no mods, but they may take a while to come out since the modding gurus will basically be building their own tools.

 

Agreed. The loss of mods would be a shame (though personally I don't tend to use the adventure/quest mods in games where the PC has VA it's just...very disorienting).

 

True but I'm pretty sure someone will come up with at the very least basic mods. Even ME3 has MEHEM.

[Bizantura]

Imagination and creativity should be more supported instead of feared.  The need of control on every aspect in software got out of hand the moment hardware could support that control.  Ease of using hardware, control of every aspect of licenced software together by blatently trotting on privacy of individuals to boost sales is rude and unacceptable.  The balance between protecting/using ones property got very one sided in favor of companies. I suppose that will not change in the near future because most people don't even see or feel they are treated only as a consumer and not as a human. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Imagination and creativity should be more supported instead of feared. The need of control on every aspect in software got out of hand the moment hardware could support that control. Ease of using hardware, control of every aspect of licenced software together by blatently trotting on privacy of individuals to boost sales is rude and unacceptable. The balance between protecting/using ones property got very one sided in favor of companies. I suppose that will not change in the near future because most people don't even see or feel they are treated only as a consumer and not as a human.

I don't even remotely see how you could turn the lack of a modkit into a privacy issue.