Replace straight, white male with anything else and see what reaction that statement garners.
"I am saying many (not all) female video game characters are the same. They pretty much are."
Hyper sexualized, props for male protagonists, damsels in distress, or just not present at all... yeah, you're right, that's another good conversation to have!
EDIT: The point is, lack of creative diversity (and I don't just mean 'more women/pocs/LGBT characters') in mainstream AAA games IS a thing.
Who is "they?" I think we need to calm down and back away from the accusations and explain ourselves, because this discussion is getting unncessarily heated.
SWM video game protagonists. I've played many games, and the SWM protagonists have varied much more than some here are implying. Thus saying they are all the same is innacurate.
I'm not getting heated. I am perfectly calm.
SWM video game protagonists. I've played many games, and the SWM protagonists have varied much more than some here are implying. Thus saying they are all the same is innacurate.
I'm not getting heated. I am perfectly calm.
You are however being disingenuous as I very definitely said they weren't all the same. Just that many of them were.
You are however being disingenuous as I very definitely said they weren't all the same. Just that many of them were.
And I say that that is inaccurate. With a broad enough net then then anything is the same, but with that broad a net it becomes racist hence my statements.
I am saying many (not all) lesbian, chinese, female video game characters are the same. For example... um... can someone help me out here I can't get to one let alone enough to qualify as many.
I'll help you out, Bayonetta, Ellie (TLoU), Lara Croft, Juliet Starling, Polka (Eternal Sonata), Aveline De Grandpre, Lightning, Jodie (Beyond) and Alexandra Roivas (Eternal Darkness) are all practically the same, right?
SWM video game protagonists. I've played many games, and the SWM protagonists have varied much more than some here are implying. Thus saying they are all the same is innacurate.
I'm not getting heated. I am perfectly calm.
Saying, point blank 'that's racist' and offering no explanation doesn't come across that way, but I'm glad to know this convo isn't getting heated.
So, for instance...Die Hard is a GREAT movie. Super fun, entertaining etc etc. Every movie that has tried to imitate it since, down to the grizzled old white guy protag doesn't nail it, and those movies are a dime a dozen. If you made a Die Hard knock off B action movie with a woman it would be different. Same principles are being applied here. Most games use a protag as an empty vessel for the player, and they make that a straight white dude who ends up being a cardboard cutout of a person. Are there many games that have told an engaging story with a straight white guy as the lead? Yes. And those have been games I love dearly. Uncharted, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, The Last of Us. BUT I don't have a list half as long as that of games where I had a strong female character (outside of Bioware games where its optional). People aren't forced to play strong women characters in a good triple A game. That's what everyone is talking about.
I'll help you out, Bayonetta, Ellie (TLoU), Lara Croft, Juliet Starling, Polka (Eternal Sonata), Aveline De Grandpre, Lightning, Jodie (Beyond) and Alexandra Roivas (Eternal Darkness) are all practically the same, right?
Faith from Mirror's Edge, as well. Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite...
Saying, point blank 'that's racist' and offering no explanation doesn't come across that way, but I'm glad to know this convo isn't getting heated.
So, for instance...Die Hard is a GREAT movie. Super fun, entertaining etc etc. Every movie that has tried to imitate it since, down to the grizzled old white guy protag doesn't nail it, and those movies are a dime a dozen. If you made a Die Hard knock off B action movie with a woman it would be different. Same principles are being applied here. Most games use a protag as an empty vessel for the player, and they make that a straight white dude. Who is a cardboard cutout of a person. Are there many games that have told an engaging story with a straight white guy as the lead? Yes. And those have been games I love deerly. Uncharted, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, The Last of Us. BUT I don't have a list half as long as that of games where I had a strong female character (outside of Bioware games where its optional). People aren't forced to play strong women characters in a good triple A game. THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT.
Then they should stop with the "Less Male" and stick with "More Female". This whole discusion has gone from essentially "Why having more women protagonists is good." to "Why having more men protagonists is bad." The tone makes all the difference. People would be much more receptive to a "Why I think I'm right" argument than a "Why I think you're wrong" argument.
There have been many posting in this thread stating that they avoid games with a lead that is straight, white and male because they find them to be "boring" and "played out."
I haven't seen anyone saying they avoid those games because they are making a stand, that they avoid them because they are on a social crusade to make publishers think twice before assigning a default SWM character as the lead.
I'm just making the point that being a SWM shouldn't automatically be seen as a negative thing, they can be just as interesting as any other character.
Point being, gender and sexuality doesn't affect how interesting a character is, the writing does. Replacing Aiden Pearce with a black lesbian wouldn't automatically make the character interesting, as the writing is still so bland it overshadows much that IS great about the character.
Actually the biggest reason I've seen in this thread, noting that I have, as the OP, been in here since the start of the thread seeing as I created said thread...
Women often enjoy the novelty of being able to play a woman, when in most games we are forced to play the Straight White Stubbly McStubblekins 30-something brown-haired man. His generic brown-haired muscle-bound crew-cut stubbly appearance aside, a lot of women have trouble identifying with male characters, and, in fact, a lot of games with the straight male set protagonist present situations that are uncomfortable for women players. And now that increasing numbers of games enable women to play as, well, women, yes, some of us are going to avoid paying for games where we can't. I personally will play games with male protagonists, but I definitely prefer to play as a woman, so games with a female protagonist or a gender-selectable protagonist are things I favor. But it isn't solely out of boredom, it's because a lot of women want to put themselves in the shoes of the hero--men have had that opportunity for a long time. It's been rarer that women had the opportunity to be the hero. Again, now that there are options to do so, some (perhaps many?) women will simply pass by the male-only option--or any options presented as male-only with no suggestion that they could also play with a female avatar. I personally MIGHT buy a male protagonist game, but am more likely to buy a game with a female lead or an optional female lead (if optional, I might sometimes play male, but not nearly as often as I play female).
Do I find straight white males boring? No. HOWEVER, the gaming industry presents a specific type of straight white male who IS in fact getting a bit boring. He's the "badass," the burly Beefy McMuscleman with short brown or black hair, some stubble, a low brow line. You know what you're getting usually the moment you see him-mostly because he usually doesn't actually have much if any personality of his own, beyond one-liners and being an epic badass who never seems to say the wrong thing. And, in point of fact, is there anything wrong with this character? Not really--it's effectively a power fantasy, and nothing's wrong with that inherently--but he is overused. Could the appearance be used without the same generic non-personality? Sure.
Could other types of straight white male be presented? Yes. They don't all need short dark hair, or low eyebrows, and that's just getting started on appearances. Personalitywise, what if he only ever produces very awkward one-liners that are funny because they AREN'T funny? What if he's not Mr. Macho Man, what if he's more like Alistair and prefers following to leading? Or what if he's more a middle ground kind of guy and happy with where he is--no desire to follow everyone but content to be led by people more competent or higher up the ladder than he is? Where are the 40- and 50-something heroes? Where are the heroes who dislike all the killing? Where are the metrosexuals who don't want to get blood on their armor? Where are the cheerful optimistic guys who CAN see the light at the end of the tunnel, or the peace at the end of the war?
So no, the straight white male in general is NOT boring or uninteresting. It's just the specific type of straight white male, from his appearance to his attitude, that begins to feel generic. The gaming industry needs innovation. And yes, more female characters, and more black, Asian, Native American, etc. characters, would be welcome. The world is simply more global now since the advent of the Internet, and more people in general are gaming. Why are we still stuck in the same generic framework meant to target 17-24 year old male individuals?
That's great, I'm all for more representation of other sexualities and genders in video games, I haven't said otherwise. It doesn't change the fact that therehas been people giving blanket statements like "SWM characters are boring, I don't play games anymore unless I can be ...." Which I disagree with. It's absolutely their right to not buy a game for any reason they wish, but being a SWM doesn't automatically make a character boring.
Being a black lesbian wouldn't make Adrian more interesting at all. It would have to affect the writing in some way to do that. If the writing stayed exactly the same then Adriana would be just as forgettable as Adrian is now. Pearce's race/gender/sexuality has no bearing on the plot, setting or any other part of the game at all
Aveline De Grandpre wasn't interesting because she was a black woman, she was interesting because she was a well written, believable character. She had an interesting story to tell, and this is when the writing DID reflect her race and gender. The setting and gameplay even reflected that Aveline was a unique person for the time. I still didn't go away from that game thinking "she was awesome because she was a black woman." I went away thinking "she was awesome. Really interesting and well written character."
Edit- Lol I said Adrian instead of Aiden. He really IS forgettable.
I would argue that just by being a black lesbian, a protagonist would make a splash. Even if all other writing remained the same (and I haven't played the game, mind you), suddenly, you have a character who is Not Straight, Not White, and Not Male, in an industry that is saturated with straight white males. It would influence people's interpretation of the game, if nothing else, because something like that, at present, hasn't been done, or hasn't been done often enough to have any visible impact on the industry. It would also likely make a lot of women gamers feel a bit more included, as long as the black lesbian character was not presented in an overly sexualized fashion meant clearly to appeal to young men's sexual fantasies rather than to stand as a character in her own right.
... If any of that made any sense.
And I say that that is inaccurate. With a broad enough net then then anything is the same, but with that broad a net it becomes racist hence my statements.
I'm afraid that makes not the slightest bit of sense to me, so I'll apologise for not pursuing the argument further with you, but I think it'll just end up with a disagreement over definitions rather than a relevant point.
Do not assume anything yet. Just because they post an image of a Female Inquisitor does not mean they will show said Female Inquisitor at E3.
The pic of the Femquisitor was on a screen at their prep-meeting for E3, according to the Twitter feed it came from.
When do you think they will show her, if not then?
Faith from Mirror's Edge, as well. Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite...
Yup. There's so many unique female protagonist's (and side characters) that aren't even remotely similar to one another. Just as there are with male characters too. I think sometimes people are looking so hard for the negative aspects of something, that they are blinded to the positive.
The pic of the Femquisitor was on a screen at their prep-meeting for E3, according to the Twitter feed it came from.
When do you think they will show her, if not then?
I think they will, but I just think we should expect the worst so that if they don't then nobody is disappointed.
But if not E3, one of the PAXs.
Yup. There's so many unique female protagonist's (and side characters) that aren't even remotely similar to one another. Just as there are with male characters too. I think sometimes people are looking so hard for the negative aspects of something, that they are blinded to the positive.
Confirmation Bias. People only see evidence that supports their thinking.
The pic of the Femquisitor was on a screen at their prep-meeting for E3, according to the Twitter feed it came from.
When do you think they will show her, if not then?
It does not necessarily mean they were prepping to show her. They could have simply been looking at environments, and just loaded up a random Inquisitor to do so. That being said, I do think we will see her at E3.
Yup. There's so many unique female protagonist's (and side characters) that aren't even remotely similar to one another. Just as there are with male characters too. I think sometimes people are looking so hard for the negative aspects of something, that they are blinded to the positive.
Well truth be told this happens everywhere,in every single fandom,which I think is sad especially when the negative aspects are minor and almost completely overshadowed by the positive ones.
Anyway,this could mean that we'll get to see and hopefully hear the lady inquisitor,which is more than enough to get me excited!
Dear, sweet Elu,
I have serious questions for you.
They consist of:
1. Did you ever know that you're my hero?
2. You're everything I wish I could be?
3. That I can fly higher than an eagle... because you are the wind beneath my wings?
I heard that song played in the hangar at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware after I stepped off the C-141 plane in 1991 when I got back from Iraq.
*snip excellent post*
Just saying I agree with every word you typed out there. Perfectly put.
As for Femquisitor at E3, I think the chances pretty good at this point. She may not be in the 'official' demo, but we should be seeing something about her.
Then they should stop with the "Less Male" and stick with "More Female". This whole discusion has gone from essentially "Why having more women protagonists is good." to "Why having more men protagonists is bad." The tone makes all the difference. People would be much more receptive to a "Why I think I'm right" argument than a "Why I think you're wrong" argument.
These are two sides of the same coin. I don't have a problem with women expressing their frustration (and that is what it is) however they please. And these discussions of frustration have not focused on the targeting of real people. And frankly, many women in this thread have had to apologize and repeatedly explain their views to people who come in and derail the point of this thread. So again, if in the face of that, there is some frustration about an inability to find products that fit women's interests, they should be able to express that as such, which is not always with a smile and a polite unoffensive-to-anyone tone.
Also, Chicago is like, THE murder capitol of the US right now. Most of that violence is people hit by stray bullets from gang violence on the south side where there is little police protection. Those areas tend to be low income areas with a large black population. Instead of a convoluted story about a sad middle class straight white dude from the outer suburbs, why was a story set in Chicago that was all about violence prevention and such NOT about someone who was actually affected by the type of violence typical to that city.
Her being a lesbian is just personal preference haha, but the above part does actually irk me a little since it was definitely a situation where someone other then a straight white male felt legitimately relevant to the story and world.
Heh, it's also a preference of mine... since, being gay and all.
˙uoᴉʇsǝnb ʞɔᴉɹʇ ɐ s,ʇI
˙ʇɔɐǝɹ ǝldoǝd ʍoɥ ǝǝs puɐ ɥƃɹɐlq lɐɔᴉsuǝsuou 'ƃuᴉʇʇᴉɯɯoɔ-uou ɐ uɐɥʇ ǝɹoɯ ƃuᴉɥʇou sɐ pǝpuǝʇuᴉ ɹo ʇuǝpᴉɔɔɐ ʎq pɐǝɹɥʇ ƃuoɹʍ ǝɥʇ uᴉ pǝʇsod pɐɥ ƃuᴉʌɐɥ ʇsnɾ ʎlqᴉssod 'pǝʇnoɹds ʇᴉ ɯsɐᴉsnɥʇuǝ ǝɥʇ puɐ uoᴉʇɐlǝʌǝɹ ʇuǝɔǝɹ ǝɥʇ oʇ ʇsɐɹʇuoɔ ʞɹɐʇs ɐ ʇuǝsǝɹd oʇ uoᴉssǝɹdxǝ ʇuɐuƃᴉpuᴉ uɐ 'ɹoʇᴉsᴉnbɯǝℲ ɟo ǝɹoɯ ǝǝs oʇ ʇᴉnsɹnd ǝɥʇ uᴉ ʇsǝɹǝʇuᴉsᴉp ɟo uƃᴉs ɐ sɐʍ ʇuǝɯɯoɔ ʎɯ ɹǝɥʇǝɥʍ ǝpᴉɔǝp oʇ noʎ oʇ dn s,ʇᴉ ʍou pu∀
Godammit, you gave me a neck cramp. 
These are two sides of the same coin. I don't have a problem with women expressing their frustration (and that is what it is) however they please. And these discussions of frustration have not focused on the targeting of real people. And frankly, many women in this thread have had to apologize and repeatedly explain their views to people who come in and derail the point of this thread. So again, if in the face of that, there is some frustration about an inability to find products that fit women's interests, they should be able to express that as such, which is not always with a smile and a polite unoffensive-to-anyone tone.
And likewise then, people should be able to express their disagreements with the posters' posts, yet whenever someone does all of a sudden they are a terrible person for daring to disagree.
And likewise then, people should be able to express their disagreements with the posters' posts, yet whenever someone does all of a sudden they are a terrible person for daring to disagree.
I only see one person here who whipped out the name-calling. If you want to debate, that is absolutely fine. We've had 110 pages of mostly civil discussion. All we're asking is that you explain your point just as rationally and respectfully as you are asking us to.
It does not necessarily mean they were prepping to show her. They could have simply been looking at environments, and just loaded up a random Inquisitor to do so. That being said, I do think we will see her at E3.
I don't know, I don't think they'd bother to post that particular picture, and then confirm that she's female, if they didn't plan to show her.
I only see one person here who whipped out the name-calling. If you want to debate, that is absolutely fine. We've had 110 pages of mostly civil discussion. All we're asking is that you explain your point just as rationally and respectfully as you are asking us to.
So when I explained why I liked the appearance of the Female Qunari, the hate I got was for what exactly?
I do not disrespect others. I have never once made a personal attack on anyone here. I'd like the same courtesy(this is in general, not to you specifically.).
Whether or not we get Femquisitor at E3 I have never been as happy to see someone's back side since Fem Shep.
I haven't seen anyone derailing the thread. Nobody has argued against more widespread representation. Some (like myself) have taken issue with the distinctly anti-male vibe that is prevalent throughout the thread.
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