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[oceanicsurvivor]

And likewise then, people should be able to express their disagreements with the posters' posts, yet whenever someone does all of a sudden they are a terrible person for daring to disagree. 

This thread hasn't lasted this long through a hive minded consensus. But calling out the status quo and the ways that status quo supports certain hierarchy's in our society shouldn't be a problem. And not wanting that bias to continue to the degree that it has permeated the industry is not the same as collectively throwing every straight white male under the proverbial bus. And, just so we are clear, nobody is arguing that they should be.

 

So, I'm gonna go back to dancing nerdily over the femQuisitor news and obsessively waiting for E3 to start.

[Lady Nuggins]

So when I explained why I liked the appearance of the Female Qunari, the hate I got was for what exactly? 

 

I do not disrespect others. I have never once made a personal attack on anyone here. I'd like the same courtesy. 

 

You had an opinion.  I disagreed with your opinion.  You disagreed with my opinion.  Was that not a discussion?  I do not remember ever insulting you or telling you that you had no right to an opinion.  If you felt that was "hate," then I don't know what to tell you.  

 

Okay.  Whipping out the "racist" card seemed pretty extreme, but if you don't feel that it was, then let's just move on.  I'd rather talk about how great E3 is going to be.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You had an opinion.  I disagreed with your opinion.  You disagreed with my opinion.  Was that not a discussion?  I do not remember ever insulting you or telling you that you had no right to an opinion.  If you felt that was "hate," then I don't know what to tell you.  

 

Okay.  Whipping out the "racist" card seemed pretty extreme, but if you don't feel that it was, then let's just move on.  I'd rather talk about how great E3 is going to be.

As I edited, that was in general, not directed towards you specifically.

I've been here long enough to know the difference between discussions and hate.

 

It wasn't. Saying everyone who fits a certain appearance are the same is racist. I never called the poster racist, just the statement. 

 

Agreed, let's(and I mean everyone here) just drp this current subject and focus on how we might get a Female Inquisitor reveal in less than a week.

[Brass_Buckles]

And likewise then, people should be able to express their disagreements with the posters' posts, yet whenever someone does all of a sudden they are a terrible person for daring to disagree. 

 

One of the absolute worst things you can say to a woman regarding how she should present her case for more representation/more pay/having more people pay attention to her ideas in meetings/pretty much anything, is "You should just be nicer/more polite about it," or "You should just smile more."  While I don't agree that we need to see fewer male protagonists, and DO agree we need more female, LGBT, PoC, etc. protagonists, it's pretty clear WHY, in an industry saturated with games to satisfy the Young Straight White Male, some women (and PoC, and LGBT folk)  might be fed up with it and want to see less of the same and more variation.

 

I also think they are perfectly within their rights to say that they feel most male protagonists in most current games feel very "same-y."  They are also within their rights to say that they find those protagonists boring.  And they are within their rights to say that they'd rather see less of that.  No one has any obligation whatsoever to change the nature or phrasing of their request because you don't like it.  They do, however, and you as well, need to remain levelheaded and polite.  One of the reasons I don't post as much anymore is because I often find the conversation carrying itself quite well.  Another reason is that sometimes, engaging might mean I also end up engaged in an argument.

 

That said, I don't think the Generic Brown-Haired Shaved Stubbly McBeefglare needs to go away, or even that there needs to be less of him.  I do think more other kinds of characters, including other kinds of male character (yes, even straight men) need to be presented.  Characters should be more unique in general--I even made a thread about having protagonists be given more personality or at least more opportunity to shape their personality based on hints about their past, etc.  People railed against it.  So, what I want (more interesting and memorable protagonists), others evidently don't.  And that's why we get the Blank Slate Badass.  And again, there's nothing wrong with him.  Some people like it, others don't.  But I can say that I'd love to see more female protagonists, even if they end up going the generic route as well.

 

Speaking of which, the possibility of the Inquisiwoman at E3?  Awesome news.  Hope to see some lovely gameplay videos from it.  Alas, I can't exactly stay home to stream it--my workplace would have some serious words with me about that.

[JadePrince]

Saying, point blank 'that's racist' and offering no explanation doesn't come across that way, but I'm glad to know this convo isn't getting heated.

 

So, for instance...Die Hard is a GREAT movie. Super fun, entertaining etc etc. Every movie that has tried to imitate it since, down to the grizzled old white guy protag doesn't nail it, and those movies are a dime a dozen. If you made a Die Hard knock off B action movie with a woman it would be different. Same principles are being applied here.  Most games use a protag as an empty vessel for the player, and they make that a straight white dude who ends up being a cardboard cutout of a person. Are there many games that have told an engaging story with a straight white guy as the lead? Yes. And those have been games I love dearly. Uncharted, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, The Last of Us. BUT I don't have a list half as long as that of games where I had a strong female character (outside of Bioware games where its optional). People aren't forced to play strong women characters in a good triple A game. That's what everyone is talking about.

 

Right, exactly!

 

I'm trying to think of a simple way to explain it to people who aren't getting it...

 

If you have a dog, and it does dog things, barks and digs holes and chases bones, well that's cool, but it's not necessarily INTERESTING. It's the standard. 

If you take a CAT and give it that same "story" (those qualities and actions and motivations), doesn't that automatically make it more interesting? It's something new and different and rarely seen!

 

Taking the same tired formula of a SWM doing action-y things, saving people, getting the girl DOES become more interesting if you give that role to a black lesbian. Because we don't ever get to see a black woman doing those things, and having those traits. 

 

If all action movies and games starred (and had always starred) black lesbians, then that might get pretty boring too (speaking personally, though, it would take a looooong time for me to get bored of movies/games starring black lesbians).

 

(Edited to make it clear I was agreeing with you!)

[Lady Nuggins]

I haven't seen anyone derailing the thread. Nobody has argued against more widespread representation. Some (like myself) have taken issue with the distinctly anti-male vibe that is prevalent throughout the thread.

 

I'm sorry if you feel that it has been anti-male, but I don't think that is the case.  There is a difference between complaining that males get much, much more representation and hating actual men.  

 

I believe your original post was expressing discomfort at somebody saying that the male Inquisitor should take a back seat.  Well, since all we've ever seen is the male Inquisitor, can you blame people for wanting somebody else instead of him?  That doesn't mean we hate him and think he should have never appeared anywhere, ever.  But say, if we only get 3 trailers total for DAI, and the first two featured men, then obviously we don't want the last to feature a man.  That doesn't mean we hate men.  It's never meant we hate men.

[SnakeCode]

I'm sorry if you feel that it has been anti-male, but I don't think that is the case.  There is a difference between complaining that males get much, much more representation and hating actual men.  

 

I believe your original post was expressing discomfort at somebody saying that the male Inquisitor should take a back seat.  Well, since all we've ever seen is the male Inquisitor, can you blame people for wanting somebody else instead of him?  That doesn't mean we hate him and think he should have never appeared anywhere, ever.  But say, if we only get 3 trailers total for DAI, and the first two featured men, then obviously we don't want the last to feature a man.  That doesn't mean we hate men.  It's never meant we hate men.

That's's just it though. There's a difference between asking for more of one thing and asking for less of another. You don't have to enforce one to make the other happen.

[Al Foley]

As I edited, that was in general, not directed towards you specifically.

I've been here long enough to know the difference between discussions and hate.

 

It wasn't. Saying everyone who fits a certain appearance are the same is racist. I never called the poster racist, just the statement. 

 

Agreed, let's(and I mean everyone here) just drp this current subject and focus on how we might get a Female Inquisitor reveal in less than a week.

Wait I thought you were tampering expectations to avoid dissapointment?

[JadePrince]

That's's just it though. There's a difference between asking for more of one thing and asking for less of another. You don't have to enforce one to make the other happen.

 

But there's always going to be people who see Bioware showing more of Female Inquisitor as somehow being unfair or "showing less" of Male Inquisitor even if they end up showing literally the same amount.

 

It's like a kid with a candy bar getting upset when someone else asks for (and gets!) a candy bar too. It doesn't take anything away from that first kid, but there will always be people who feel like it does. And there's no use arguing with them because they just don't get it. 

[oceanicsurvivor]

I haven't seen anyone derailing the thread. Nobody has argued against more widespread representation. Some (like myself) have taken issue with the distinctly anti-male vibe that is prevalent throughout the thread.

 

*stops dancing*

 

It's funny how pro-women spaces get labeled with that negative so quickly. "You want to see femquisitor? Well I just want to see more of the Inquisitor, why is everything so about gender with you people".

 

Frustration has been expressed that products in the gaming Industry do not meet certain needs, desires, and expectations for female gamers. The reason is they are not seeing representation, while straight men and white men find protagonists who talk like them, act like them, are interested in women like they are are a dime a dozen. Are there more nuances between those straight white characters sure. But the over saturation is still undeniable and frustrating to many people who want to see games of that same triple A caliber made with a protagonist who talks like them, acts like them, and is attracted to the same people they are. And women have a right to be frustrated by that lack of inclusion and they should not need to start every sentence of frustration with: I don't mean to offend anyone, I know this doesn't apply to all male characters, or any other crap like that to 'soften' the blow of them having an opinion.

 

*resumes dancing, trips, decides to just sit quietly and think about how awesome the announcement news is*

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Wait I thought you were tampering expectations to avoid dissapointment?

I'd rather raise expectations than have relations between posters continue to strain and get this thread locked. 

[Brass_Buckles]

I haven't seen anyone derailing the thread. Nobody has argued against more widespread representation. Some (like myself) have taken issue with the distinctly anti-male vibe that is prevalent throughout the thread.

 

What anti-male sentiment?

 

The only thing remotely like that is that some people are bored of generic male protagonists who are straight, with short/shaved hair, stubble, and white, and "blank slate badass."  If you are a real human being, and not a character who falls into these categories, then no one here, so far as I have seen--and remember that I have been here since the beginning--has presented any anti-male sentiment.

 

Just because the majority of posters here have (mostly peacefully) requested more representation for female characters, for LGBT characters, and people of color characters, doesn't mean that we suddenly hate men.  I have not ever, nor will I ever, understood the sentiment that somehow by promoting equal treatment for women I must necessarily hate men.  I have only seen a handful of posts that were anti-men in general, and those were quite early in the history of the thread.

 

Perhaps you've been lurking, but I have noticed you only actually posted in the last few pages.  Do you believe it is reasonable to make a broad assumption about the entire nature of the entire thread, without having read every single post in every single one of the 110 pages?

 

And yes, in fact, some people HAVE argued against more widespread representation, over the course of this thread.  It caused a lot of frustration.  It's also happened more than once, causing a lot of us to repeat ourselves over and over and over again, much as I feel I am doing now.  Which, if there is indeed hostility, might have been a factor in any negative feelings toward your posts.

 

I repeat, while I made my request politely, I am not everyone in this thread--and they ARE entitled to respond as long as they stay on topic, in whatever format they deem necessary or appropriate, so long as they do not break the forum rules.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Well I'm hopeful that if they do start showing the female inquisitor at E3 we should get a bit less one sided material after that point. I couldn't say hand on heart it's true, but my impression from recent releases is once they get the female protagonist on screen they're good at keeping it up, even if they are a little tardy reaching that first point!

[Lady Nuggins]

That's's just it though. There's a difference between asking for more of one thing and asking for less of another. You don't have to enforce one to make the other happen.

 

Think of it like this: there are two dishes of M&Ms.  One dish is filled to the brim.  The other has 5 M&Ms.  If you take 10 M&Ms out of the first dish and put them into the second dish, then the owner of the first dish probably won't notice.  They've got all these other M&Ms, what are 10 less?  But the owner of the second dish will be pretty darn pleased to see the amount of M&Ms in their dish suddenly triple. 

 

Sometimes increasing representation means that one of the 10 times that it could have been a man, it was a woman instead.  Or one of the 100 times it could have been a straight man, it's a queer one.  

 

Every previous Bioware marketing campaign has focused on men.  Every single one.  Most of them didn't even show women as an option, and so far, neither has this one.  So yes, I'd like a little less of the men.  It's not because there is anything wrong with men.  It's because I think there is room in the spotlight for both of them, and they have an excess of M&Ms that they could easily give up.

[SnakeCode]

But there's always going to be people who see Bioware showing more of Female Inquisitor as somehow being unfair or "showing less" of Male Inquisitor even if they end up showing literally the same amount.

 

It's like a kid with a candy bar getting upset when someone else asks for (and gets!) a candy bar too. It doesn't take anything away from that first kid, but there will always be people who feel like it does. And there's no use arguing with them because they just don't get it. 

Agreed, but it works the other way around as well. One kid having a candy bar in the first place isn't the reason why the second kid hasn't got one. The second child can ask for a candy bar of their own without asking that it be taken from the first kid.

 

*stops dancing*

 

It's funny how pro-women spaces get labeled with that negative so quickly. "You want to see femquisitor? Well I just want to see more of the Inquisitor, why is everything so about gender with you people".

 

Frustration has been expressed that products in the gaming Industry do not meet certain needs, desires, and expectations for female gamers. The reason is they are not seeing representation, while straight men and white men find protagonists who talk like them, act like them, are interested in women like they are are a dime a dozen. Are there more nuances between those straight white characters sure. But the over saturation is still undeniable and frustrating to many people who want to see games of that same triple A caliber made with a protagonist who talks like them, acts like them, and is attracted to the same people they are. And women have a right to be frustrated by that lack of inclusion and they should not need to start every sentence of frustration with: I don't mean to offend anyone, I know this doesn't apply to all male characters, or any other crap like that to 'soften' the blow of them having an opinion.

 

*resumes dancing, trips, decides to just sit quietly and think about how awesome the announcement news is*

Missed my point completely. Asking for more female promotional content is fine, I actively support it. Asking for less content for others though, isn't. 

 

It has nothing to do with how people express the argument, it's the argument itself that I take issue with.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

We really should drop this. Everyone, if you would be so kind as to open the spoiler tag. 

 

Spoiler

 

Thank you.

[JadePrince]

Think of it like this: there are two dishes of M&Ms.  One dish is filled to the brim.  The other has 5 M&Ms.  If you take 10 M&Ms out of the first dish and put them into the second dish, then the owner of the first dish probably won't notice.  They've got all these other M&Ms, what are 10 less?  But the owner of the second dish will be pretty darn pleased to see the amount of M&Ms in their dish suddenly triple. 

 

Sometimes increasing representation means that one of the 10 times that it could have been a man, it was a woman instead.  Or one of the 100 times it could have been a straight man, it's a queer one.  

 

Every previous Bioware marketing campaign has focused on men.  Every single one.  Most of them didn't even show women as an option, and so far, neither has this one.  So yes, I'd like a little less of the men.  It's not because there is anything wrong with men.  It's because I think there is room in the spotlight for both of them, and they have an excess of M&Ms that they could easily give up.

 

I love that analogy. The thing is, most of the time, it's not EVEN taking the SWM m&ms away. They are fresh m&m that belong to NOone yet. So, the way I see it, straightwhitemen don't even have the "I'm losing something" leg to stand on!

[Brass_Buckles]

That's's just it though. There's a difference between asking for more of one thing and asking for less of another. You don't have to enforce one to make the other happen.

 

If there are already two trailers with the male Inquisitor, how is it asking for less of him to ask for trailers/gameplay of the Inquisiwoman at E3?  Or do you think that now they should both have trailers/gameplay, but still have two more Inquisiman trailers than inquisiwoman trailers?  Because that's not fair, and asking for her to be shown at all in any trailers at this point is not asking for less of the male Inquisitor.  He already has two trailers, with his voice in them no less.  It will not make him appear in fewer trailers to have him take the back seat in gameplay demos at E3, if that is what happens.  It also will not prevent him from showing up in later trailers and gameplay demos leading up to the game.

 

It seems to me that your argument is that by showing the Inquisiwoman at all the Inquisiman will be shown less.  That isn't the case, and it isn't what I have taken anyone here to be asking for--you seem to be reading different things into the words than I am.

[SnakeCode]

I love that analogy. The thing is, most of the time, it's not EVEN taking the SWM m&ms away. They are fresh m&m that belong to NOone yet. So, the way I see it, straightwhitemen don't even have the "I'm losing something" leg to stand on!

That's what i'm saying, and why I don't feel that analogy works. The second person has ways of adding more sweets into their bowl without taking them from the other person's bowl.

[JadePrince]

I dunno how it works, but let's say for argument's sake that there will only be 4 total trailers (this isn't true, but bare with me). We've had 2 with male inquisitors, so if we wanted things to be equal, that means the last 2 would need to be female Inquisitors and then technically that would mean we'd see "less" of the male inquisitor than we would have if he'd been starring in all 4.

 

Frankly? I don't see a problem with that. If fem!Inquisitor takes the place that would normally go to male!Inquisitor by default, then I'm all for that.

[Brass_Buckles]

Think of it like this: there are two dishes of M&Ms.  One dish is filled to the brim.  The other has 5 M&Ms.  If you take 10 M&Ms out of the first dish and put them into the second dish, then the owner of the first dish probably won't notice.  They've got all these other M&Ms, what are 10 less?  But the owner of the second dish will be pretty darn pleased to see the amount of M&Ms in their dish suddenly triple. 

 

Sometimes increasing representation means that one of the 10 times that it could have been a man, it was a woman instead.  Or one of the 100 times it could have been a straight man, it's a queer one.  

 

Every previous Bioware marketing campaign has focused on men.  Every single one.  Most of them didn't even show women as an option, and so far, neither has this one.  So yes, I'd like a little less of the men.  It's not because there is anything wrong with men.  It's because I think there is room in the spotlight for both of them, and they have an excess of M&Ms that they could easily give up.

 

Hm.  Reading your post, I can't  help but agree, even though I myself don't want to take away from others.  But, given the limited amount of resources available for marketing, only a certain number of trailers/ads/posters/etc. can be made.  In that case, if I must choose between cutting some of the spots the Inquisiman would show up in, or having less/none of the Inquisiwoman, possibly no trailers up until the very release of the game... yes, I'll pick having a little less exposure for Inquisiman, because he's already had some trailers and will likely have more--the players uninitiated with Dragon Age or BioWare already know, or will know, that he exists.  If they didn't, well, he's plastered over the website.  On the other hand, people who would prefer to play as a woman have seen nothing of their favored protagonist, so as far as they are concerned there is not even any evidence that she exists.

 

So yes, if it comes down to Inquisiman getting all the candy, or Inquisiwoman getting some of the candy (perhaps even half?), .then I am all for Inquisiman getting less in the interests of more equal representation (even if Inquisiwoman still gets less candy, it's better than getting just one M&M when Inquisiman gets the entire rest of the bag).

[oceanicsurvivor]

Agreed, but it works the other way around as well. One kid having a candy bar in the first place isn't the reason why the second kid hasn't got one. The second child can ask for a candy bar of their own without asking that it be taken from the first kid.

 

Missed my point completely. Asking for more female promotional content is fine, I actively support it. Asking for less content for others though, isn't. 

 

It has nothing to do with how people express the argument, it's the argument itself that I take issue with.

 

Yeah, no, I get your point.

 

And say there are two kids, a brother and sister. The brother has a candy bar but his sister doesn't and he refuses to split it with her, I think this hypothetical little boy is kinda mean.

 

You can't both 'support female promotional content' and say 'oh, but if the next trailer being of femquisitor means the next one isn't another trailer with male inquisitor...ooh, girls I'm sorry, conflict of interest, go find yourself another candy bar.'

[JadePrince]

That's what i'm saying, and why I don't feel that analogy works. The second person has ways of adding more sweets into their bowl without taking them from the other person's bowl.

 

The point is:

 

1) noone's bowl is being taken from in this instance (they aren't 'redacting' or erasing or ignoring the stuff with the male!Inquisitor that's already out). 

2) even if it was, the white male protag bowl has plenty to spare.

[SnakeCode]

I dunno how it works, but let's say for argument's sake that there will only be 4 total trailers (this isn't true, but bare with me). We've had 2 with male inquisitors, so if we wanted things to be equal, that means the last 2 would need to be female Inquisitors and then technically that would mean we'd see "less" of the male inquisitor than we would have if he'd been starring in all 4.

 

Frankly? I don't see a problem with that. If fem!Inquisitor takes the place that would normally go to male!Inquisitor by default, then I'm all for that.

I agree completely. IF there's only going to be a set number, then they should split that content equally. It wouldn't mean the Male character is getting less, because that content wasn't designated for him in the first place.

[Brass_Buckles]

That's what i'm saying, and why I don't feel that analogy works. The second person has ways of adding more sweets into their bowl without taking them from the other person's bowl.

 

If candy = marketing funding, then where is the extra candy going to come from to give to the Inquisiwoman?  If Inquisiman already has all the candy, or most of the candy, then there won't be any more candy to allocate to Inquisiwoman, at least until the developers' paychecks come in and they're able to go to the grocery store and buy more candy.

 

In other words, marketing budgets are limited, and in order for the Inquisiwoman to be marketet at all--Lady Nuggins is right--some of that budget has to be taken away from what the Inquisiman would normally get.  It's basic math.

 

EA/BioWare is not going to magically get more funds out of thin air to throw at marketing for specifically the female protagonist.  Now you could say "they can crowdsource," or something else like that, but then that still makes Inquisiwoman, and the fanbase who intend to play as her, be basically an afterthought--not worth putting initial funding into.  Or you can say they can wait until money comes in from the release of the game, THEN throw some marketing her way, but, well, then the ship has already sailed and the damage has already been done, and we're once again without representation.  And, waiting until just prior to release when preorder funding might be in, is also a less-than-stellar option, because of that whole "we're just an afterthought" feeling women will get after the fact.

 

So I don't like the thought, but basically, Nuggins is right--there's only so much candy to go around, until the paychecks come in and groceries can be bought again.  In light of that, is it a bad thing if Inquisiman gets a few less M&Ms so that Inquisiwoman can have any at all?