9318 réponses à ce sujet

[XMissWooX]

If it makes anyone feel better, I cooked in the kitchen and took care of my two year old daughter while my wife worked this evening? I'm a far stretch from a sexist - I'm just someone who thinks ANY set protagonist is a bad idea. One that misleads consumers, marginalizes Bioware's efforts and is going to exclude someone/some group by default.

Oh that wasn't aimed at you Fast Jimmy. I don't think you're sexist - you just seem to know what you like and feel passionately about it. Nothing wrong with that at all.

But now I'm *way* off-topic so I'll shut up now

[Darth Krytie]

But this brings me back to the exact point I was trying to make last night (and failed at, obviously). Your daughter isn't interested in a game unless she realized she could play as a female. That's totally natural and understandable. Just like I could understand someone not wanting to play a game if they couldn't play a POC.

So would putting a female on the cover help? There may be males who see it and don't want to play as a woman (not realizing the option is there). If the cover female is white, a POC may still say they don't want to play a game as another white person, again (not realizing the option is there). If the hair is a style someone might not like - or anything about the general appearance - they may not want to play it (again, not realizing the option is there).

If Bioware has put so much effort and resources into adding these ability to customize your character, then wouldn't it make sense to devise a way to market the OPTION, not to market a set protagonist that will invariably turn someone away? I realize that the straight white male character has been in the spotlight for a while, but switching the cover art to include others, while an attempt to balance out the previous injustices, is still not making people aware of the option.

If the game HAS to have a set protag, then yes... this would be a different situation. But nothing about DA's marketing need include this. And if they did go with a set protag, I'd not mind a woman or POC or any other variety the team would like (or, perhaps, more accurately, it would irk me just as much as, for instance, Hawke on the cover, where the game was screaming at me that MY Hawke was wrong). But to say a set protag is a foregone conclusion isn't a guarantee. I'd like to fight it as much as possible.

 

 

It's not, for me at least, about having a woman on the cover of a game...precisely. It's about having a game marketed specifically towards women, letting them know that this game allows for women players.

 

Look at something like...em. Dr Pepper Ten. Or Slim Jims. Both are available to be consumed by anyone at all. But ALL of the marketing is geared toward men. ALL of it. And in a very blatent way. "Menergy" and "Manly Men Drink this Swill" and stuff like that. I have never seen an ad for either product selling those products to me. Which are extremely gender neutral products. And, by the way, I love Slim Jims. But I feel alienated by their ad campaigns. I stopped drinking Dr Pepper altogether because of their ad campaigns.

 

I watch football religiously and yet...until very recently, women weren't in football commercials unless they were rolling their eyes at their men. And most guys who saw me in my Pats gear would sneer and call me a Pink Hat. (And all the stuff for women used to be on ungodly pink clothes). They've improved. Their marketing now includes women, their clotheslines have improved. And men don't sneer at me as much for the football gear. Though, having a patriots tattoo on my arm probably helps.

 

The point is, marketing is important. Marketing towards audiences that want to buy your product. Ad campaigns that not only ignore your demographic, but actively alientate that demographic sucks.

 

So, no, the Lady Inquisitor doesn't necessarily need to be on the box to appease me, but the marketing DOES need to target me, as a woman, because otherwise I'm invisible again.

[Allan Schumacher]

That's true... but, then again, I've found as a straight white male I've found the world has a lot of issues with ME, by default.

 

This can probably be applied most (all) groups I think, though, within some contexts.  It's hard for me to get too frustrated when this happens to me when I realize "There are people that have found that the world has a lot of issues with them, by default."  If anything it probably adds a degree of perspective in that "Oh... THIS is how it feels to be judged and hated simply based on some trait I have through no real fault of my own...."

 

 

I see it as a symptom and hope that things will get better as progress is made and to try my best not to "keep any cycles" going.  (I'm not always successful)

[Fetunche]

I'd prefer not to see the inquisitor at all, I find it hard to play anything other than Sheploo for ME because he is on everything so anyone else feels wrong. I customise my Hawkes but my canon Hawke is the one in all the ads, in the prologue and on the box because everything is telling me that is Hawke. DAO I have no problem creating multiple wardens as the box just has a dragon and I never saw any of the trailers before playing the game. The inquisitor doesn't need to appear in the ads or box art they could just show the companions in the trailers and a dragon on the cover is fine. They need to emphasise character creation and keep the inquisitor anonymous.

[kukumburr]

If the game HAS to have a set protag, then yes... this would be a different situation. But nothing about DA's marketing need include this. And if they did go with a set protag, I'd not mind a woman or POC or any other variety the team would like (or, perhaps, more accurately, it would irk me just as much as, for instance, Hawke on the cover, where the game was screaming at me that MY Hawke was wrong). But to say a set protag is a foregone conclusion isn't a guarantee. I'd like to fight it as much as possible.

 

I'm not against getting rid of the default protagonist but I would argue that even a more ambiguous box cover wouldn't make me think "I have choices". The default white male protag is so ingrained in video games that even when something isn't obviously male that is what I picture it as. For example, in the Fires Above trailer the protag standing up doesn't look male or female but my mind immediately goes to male first. It's still a vast improvement over a main male protag, but I think if you want people to know you can play as a female you have to explicitly show it because it's so rare.

 

Also, I'm sort of just assuming they're going to have a set protagonist for marketing again because that was the case in a lot of previous BioWare games. It's not that I necessarily want a default female protag, it's more like "well, IF you're doing it this way then why don't you have the protag be female this time?"

[Darth Krytie]

I'm not against getting rid of the default protagonist but I would argue that even a more ambiguous box cover wouldn't make me think "I have choices". The default white male protag is so ingrained in video games that even when something isn't obviously male that is what I picture it as. For example, in the Fires Above trailer the protag standing up doesn't look male or female but my mind immediately goes to male first. It's still a vast improvement over a main male protag, but I think if you want people to know you can play as a female you have to explicitly show it because it's so rare.

 

Also, I'm sort of just assuming they're going to have a set protagonist for marketing again because that was the case in a lot of previous BioWare games. It's not that I necessarily want a default female protag, it's more like "well, IF you're doing it this way then why don't you have the protag be female this time?"

 

Yeah, it reminds me of this post I saw on tumblr:  http://tmblr.co/ZI8ZTx13HuO8k

 

So original...a white beardy dude.

[Allan Schumacher]

Link doesn't work for me

[Darth Krytie]

Link doesn't work for me

 

http://femfreq.tumbl.../e3-impressions   is this better?

[Mes]

http://femfreq.tumbl.../e3-impressions   is this better?

 

Lol. Love it. 

 

Here's another one:

 

 

Clearly... a pattern.

[Darth Krytie]

Lol. Love it. 

 

Here's another one:

 

 

Clearly... a pattern.

DIVERSITY WOW

[Nefla]

I for one am sick to death of the straight white male with dark hair and stubble or full beard being in EVERYTHING:

 

Even though BW is leagues ahead of most as far as their actual games, the marketing is still mostly stuck in this rut. Sheploo, default advertised Warden (sacred ashes) and Hawke, and the inquisitor shown in the pax demo all fit exactly into this.

 

I would rather have a symbol or something that shows choice on the cover but if they are going to have an "iconic" character, I would like for it to be female or at least a male that isn't white for a (sadly very rare) change. In the trailers I wish they would alternate between male or female PCs, especially in gameplay trailers where it takes no effort to play as a female character vs a male one.

[GVulture]

I say that having very clear marketing about being able to choose gender is important because I know personally that there are some people that will always snatch up a game if the protagonist is female and/or you can select the main character's gender.

I know the CLEAR marketing is important because when a series can get three games in and still have people NOT know that there is a Femshep option to the game, there is clearly something wrong with the marketing.

 

In my corner of the tumblr I hear stories at least once a month about how they got into Dragon Age or Mass Effect late because they didn't know they could play a girl. Someone had to tell them.

 

That was a costumer that companies could've picked up at launch if they had planned their marketing better.

[Mes]

I say that having very clear marketing about being able to choose gender is important because I know personally that there are some people that will always snatch up a game if the protagonist is female and/or you can select the main character's gender.

I know the CLEAR marketing is important because when a series can get three games in and still have people NOT know that there is a Femshep option to the game, there is clearly something wrong with the marketing.

 

In my corner of the tumblr I hear stories at least once a month about how they got into Dragon Age or Mass Effect late because they didn't know they could play a girl. Someone had to tell them.

 

That was a costumer that companies could've picked up at launch if they had planned their marketing better.

 

Yeah ME's marketing was just shocking.

 

The only reason I picked the game up was because I knew it was Bioware, and I needed a distraction from my lack of a new DA game.

 

Had NO IDEA female Shepard was an option. And you know what - she turned out to be AMAZING. She deserved way more marketing time than monotone, skinhead male Shepard (who, admittedly, I also grew to love by the end).

[GVulture]

Yeah ME's marketing was just shocking.

 

The only reason I picked the game up was because I knew it was Bioware, and I needed a distraction from my lack of a new DA game.

 

Had NO IDEA female Shepard was an option. And you know what - she turned out to be AMAZING. She deserved way more marketing time than monotone, skinhead male Shepard (who, admittedly, I also grew to love by the end).

I have been with Bioware since the days of Baldur's Gate so by the time Mass Effect rolled around I knew there would be gender options already. They've always done it as far as I could remember (even if the writing was uneven *coughcoughWHEREWASMYHAER'DALISROMANCEcoughcough*). But in this day and age when gaming is more mainstream and there are women actively looking for specifically the thing you make it makes zero sense not to wave red flags and catch people's attention.

[Fast Jimmy]

I say that having very clear marketing about being able to choose gender is important because I know personally that there are some people that will always snatch up a game if the protagonist is female and/or you can select the main character's gender.

I know the CLEAR marketing is important because when a series can get three games in and still have people NOT know that there is a Femshep option to the game, there is clearly something wrong with the marketing.

 

In my corner of the tumblr I hear stories at least once a month about how they got into Dragon Age or Mass Effect late because they didn't know they could play a girl. Someone had to tell them.

 

That was a costumer that companies could've picked up at launch if they had planned their marketing better.

 

Is putting a woman on the cover/including her in the trailers/having her in the commercials, etc. an effective way to demonstrate that you can choose your gender? I'm asking as a serious question.

 

For instance, when watching commercials/trailers for Beyond: Two Souls, I didn't see Ellen Paige's character rendering and think "wow, there's a woman in the trailers... that must mean I get to play as a man or a woman if I choose." Which is good, because that's not how the game worked. Similarly, I didn't see marketing material for Assassin's Creed Liberation, which has a female POC on the front, and think "wow, this game must have gender AND race options in it!" Because that's not what having a set character featured in marketing conveys.

 

I don't know what the answer is (at least not in a way that is cute and clever and yet also leaves no room for misunderstanding that the option is present). Maybe something like the WoW commercials from a few years back, where celebrities of different appearances, shapes and attitudes showed how they could make a character that was like them? That doesn't seem like it would be a clear 1:1 transference onto the DA setting, but, at the same time, there could be something more inventive than "there is great peril in this time of peril... we must need a hero to save us from all this peril!" <cue cutscene of grim but determined set protagonist, cut to action scenes, roll promo title>. Honestly, those trailers are the most common form of "information" about a game in the industry and tells the player nothing to work off of to make an informed decision.

[n2nw]

I generally won't play a game if I can't be a woman (don't judge me ) and sometimes I really have to dig to find out whether or not it's an option.  Along those lines, I'm also more inclined to buy a game where I can romance someone and that's tough to find out as well.  There are 2 things I wish they would just let be known:

 

1.  Whether it's one gender only

2.  Whether or not there's romance

 

I'm probably the only one who cares about knowing those things, though, so I'll just keep doing my research.

 

And as for not wanting to be a guy, let me just say that Male Shep did not help that feeling any.  Fem Shep's voice acting was awesome (except for the brutally awful drunk-lonely-club-girl lines in ME2 with Jacob.....*shudders*) and I took it for granted.  When I decided it may be fun to be Male Shep (because I totally love ME), I found out that I was HORRIBLY wrong.  I'm sorry, but after Fem Shep, it was like listening to a robot.  Couldn't do it.  Shame.  My Male Shep was pretty hawt. 

[Darth Krytie]

Is putting a woman on the cover/including her in the trailers/having her in the commercials, etc. an effective way to demonstrate that you can choose your gender? I'm asking as a serious question.

 

For instance, when watching commercials/trailers for Beyond: Two Souls, I didn't see Ellen Paige's character rendering and think "wow, there's a woman in the trailers... that must mean I get to play as a man or a woman if I choose." Which is good, because that's not how the game worked. Similarly, I didn't see marketing material for Assassin's Creed Liberation, which has a female POC on the front, and think "wow, this game must have gender AND race options in it!" Because that's not what having a set character featured in marketing conveys.

 

I don't know what the answer is (at least not in a way that is cute and clever and yet also leaves no room for misunderstanding that the option is present). Maybe something like the WoW commercials from a few years back, where celebrities of different appearances, shapes and attitudes showed how they could make a character that was like them? That doesn't seem like it would be a clear 1:1 transference onto the DA setting, but, at the same time, there could be something more inventive than "there is great peril in this time of peril... we must need a hero to save us from all this peril!" <cue cutscene of grim but determined set protagonist, cut to action scenes, roll promo title>. Honestly, those trailers are the most common form of "information" about a game in the industry and tells the player nothing to work off of to make an informed decision.

 

 

I don't think there's ever going to be a completely foolproof marketing campaign as it always depends on what you end up seeing. However, I do know this: Not including lady protags at all in the gameplay videos or marketing campaigns certainly doesn't send a message saying that gender is an option and hey, ladies who want to play as a woman, choose this.

[GVulture]

Is putting a woman on the cover/including her in the trailers/having her in the commercials, etc. an effective way to demonstrate that you can choose your gender? I'm asking as a serious question.

 

For instance, when watching commercials/trailers for Beyond: Two Souls, I didn't see Ellen Paige's character rendering and think "wow, there's a woman in the trailers... that must mean I get to play as a man or a woman if I choose." Which is good, because that's not how the game worked. Similarly, I didn't see marketing material for Assassin's Creed Liberation, which has a female POC on the front, and think "wow, this game must have gender AND race options in it!" Because that's not what having a set character featured in marketing conveys.

 

I don't know what the answer is (at least not in a way that is cute and clever and yet also leaves no room for misunderstanding that the option is present). Maybe something like the WoW commercials from a few years back, where celebrities of different appearances, shapes and attitudes showed how they could make a character that was like them? That doesn't seem like it would be a clear 1:1 transference onto the DA setting, but, at the same time, there could be something more inventive than "there is great peril in this time of peril... we must need a hero to save us from all this peril!" <cue cutscene of grim but determined set protagonist, cut to action scenes, roll promo title>. Honestly, those trailers are the most common form of "information" about a game in the industry and tells the player nothing to work off of to make an informed decision.

Of course, not. But by that same token, how did ME and DA effectively demonstrate the choice in trailers filled with white dudes? To demonstrate that choice, you would need a shot where your protagonist shifts from one appearance to the next. Or you have those big buzz words about choice and include a shot containing a different version of the protagonist. I am not saying to exclude the male choice from marketing. I am saying that there needs to be this equal presentation. Or Bioware can keep doing what they're doing so far with the ambiguously cloaked and obscured hero.

When doing PR for the game like the concept dev diary we got, there should be an effort to use male and female pronouns equally and when showing concept work of the actual concept for the various armor styles for the Inquisitor and harping about all that wonderful choice there should be a few shots of the female Inquisitor as well. Which is something that Bioware did NOT do. Now, Allan told us it was because her stuff wasn't finalized, but frankly, neither is any of the male Inquisitor armor and appearances we did see. Granted, they did allow glimpses of all of Matt Rhodes wonderous concept art of the female Inquisitor, but with how the rest of the diary was presented and Matt's marvelous unsexualized armor for the Lady Inquisitor most of the fandom didn't know the art was of a woman until Matt shared it on his blog.

 

Problematic.

[Nefla]

I generally won't play a game if I can't be a woman (don't judge me ) and sometimes I really have to dig to find out whether or not it's an option.  Along those lines, I'm also more inclined to buy a game where I can romance someone and that's tough to find out as well.  There are 2 things I wish they would just let be known:

 

1.  Whether it's one gender only

2.  Whether or not there's romance

 

I'm probably the only one who cares about knowing those things, though, so I'll just keep doing my research.

 

 

You're not the only one. I am far less inclined to buy a game where you can't pick your gender and there is no romance.

[Fast Jimmy]

Of course, not. But by that same token, how did ME and DA effectively demonstrate the choice in trailers filled with white dudes? To demonstrate that choice, you would need a shot where your protagonist shifts from one appearance to the next. Or you have those big buzz words about choice and include a shot containing a different version of the protagonist. I am not saying to exclude the male choice from marketing. I am saying that there needs to be this equal presentation. Or Bioware can keep doing what they're doing so far with the ambiguously cloaked and obscured hero.

When doing PR for the game like the concept dev diary we got, there should be an effort to use male and female pronouns equally and when showing concept work of the actual concept for the various armor styles for the Inquisitor and harping about all that wonderful choice there should be a few shots of the female Inquisitor as well. Which is something that Bioware did NOT do. Now, Allan told us it was because her stuff wasn't finalized, but frankly, neither is any of the male Inquisitor armor and appearances we did see. Granted, they did allow glimpses of all of Matt Rhodes wonderous concept art of the female Inquisitor, but with how the rest of the diary was presented and Matt's marvelous unsexualized armor for the Lady Inquisitor most of the fandom didn't know the art was of a woman until Matt shared it on his blog.
 
Problematic.

I think ME did a poor job marketing gender (of overall appearance or class options) in all of their games. Just like the idea of being female was lost, so was the ability to look different than white, or to play as something other than a soldier with a gun (like, for instance, a biotic, which I felt the game did a poor job of integrating into the game's story, as well).

DA2 was similarly poorly done. MHawke was plastered everywhere. And I disliked it possibly as much as you. It cripples role playing and character creation to feel that, even though I usually make a white male character (that roughly resembles myself), it isn't the "real" Hawke that Bioware pushes across every possible venue.


But Origins? Origins was done decently. Yes, there was the grizzled Warden in two of the trailers. But his role (and appearance) was fairly limited. Arguably, the trailers could have been done with a more ambiguous character and barely broken step.

But in addition to that, the name of the game was Origins. And the devs and marketing plugged this concept at every turn - you made your own character, customized their own background, decided how you started the game and who you were. Character creation and customization wasn't just a feature - it was a huge basis of the game. They showed how unique it was with nearly every breath they had.

Granted, Inquisition doesn't have different starting Origins. Race options do not equal different opening sequences.

That being said, Bioware made it a focus to talk about this feature to choose as something unique and important... yet these days, they take it as a given, since they have had these types of options in their games for over a decade.

Again, not done perfectly (to my tastes or likely to promotion of the female gender), but I feel like it was done better than the majority of other Bioware games in recent years.

[Allan Schumacher]

Now, Allan told us it was because her stuff wasn't finalized, but frankly, neither is any of the male Inquisitor armor and appearances we did see.

 

I actually stated that it was because we had to choose one to start with.  And unfortunately it probably wasn't a conscious choice either, but rather the ones that come because of habits/assumption/convenience/whatever....  Which is problematic, but I do try to choose my words carefully and feel I have to clarify lest people assume that I did say things in that way.  Not showing the female Inquisitor at this point is not because she's not finalized, but because she's not done enough.

 

Yes the Inquisitor we have shown is "not finalized" but that's a nebulous term because anything from "not-existing at all" to the instant before "done" technically fits into that bucket.

We showed glimpses of Morrigan and Cassandra at the E3 trailer as well, despite not being final (changes have happened since then).  I don't know if anything we've shown fits into the bucket of being completely final.

 

 

Unfortunately, I don't believe fans and the media are that understanding of showing off a clearly unfinished asset.  Imagine that the PAX playthrough was with a temporary body, lacking in any sort of armor (or even texture).  We're giving the same demonstration, and the exact same playthrough, but I think it'd be a big elephant in the room.  I don't think this is a guess either, because I see it with all sorts of games where people really scrutinize pre-alpha content and whatnot.  I think people would go "what the heck are you showing us?"

 

Now demos can suck because they can be a big distraction from work, if we let them be that way.  But, something like the PAX or E3 demo also lets us dive deep to see what it takes to make content that looks presentable and even playable.  Effectively a vertical slice, it takes a small chunk of the breadth of the game and then tries to push that content farther than the rest of the game.  This is useful for letting us know how efficient our tools are (since they had to be recreated, this is extra useful) so we have an idea on how accurate our time estimates are for delivering on all the content for the entire game are.  This is what I am referring to when I say "one is chosen" because splitting that focus between two protagonist models would definitely mean the protagonist doesn't look as good, which definitely means that people are going to scrutinize that aspect of the demo.

 

 

 

 

most of the fandom didn't know the art was of a woman until Matt shared it on his blog.

 

Wasn't the issue more that people didn't know it was supposed to be the Inquisitor?  I remember being in the thread where someone (Sandal) asked why that concept art blitz didn't show any women Inquisitors, and Rhodes came in and shared that there were some.

[GVulture]

I actually stated that it was because we had to choose one to start with.  And unfortunately it probably wasn't a conscious choice either, but rather the ones that come because of habits/assumption/convenience/whatever....  Which is problematic, but I do try to choose my words carefully and feel I have to clarify lest people assume that I did say things in that way.  Not showing the female Inquisitor at this point is not because she's not finalized, but because she's not done enough.

 

 

Wasn't the issue more that people didn't know it was supposed to be the Inquisitor?  I remember being in the thread where someone (Sandal) asked why that concept art blitz didn't show any women Inquisitors, and Rhodes came in and shared that there were some.

Ah, that is what I meant by not finalized. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

The particular sequence I was thinking of in that dev diary were the shot after shot of concept art of the male Inquisitor armors. I understand that without the concept art getting past a certain point there couldn't be any of the physical assets to show, but are you saying that the Lady Inquisitor wasn't even at the stage of concept art of possible armors? It just seemed like a good place to showcase lady armors when the voice over is talking about how you can make the Inquisitor look any way you want and customize "HIS" armor.

 

As for the other, it might have been clearer here, but in tumblr-land no one knew those were Lady Inquisitors (or that the art with the snowy mountains and the Lady Inquisitor and BEM was a dwarf) until Matt Rhodes tagged them that way. *shrug* Maybe it was just lost in the shuffle from here to there

[ElitePinecone]

 

Wasn't the issue more that people didn't know it was supposed to be the Inquisitor?  I remember being in the thread where someone (Sandal) asked why that concept art blitz didn't show any women Inquisitors, and Rhodes came in and shared that there were some.

 

Yeah this has happened a few times. In the concept art of the Inquisition fortress with the bald elf mage, people didn't seem to realise that the female dwarf was an Inquisitor. 

 

I know Matt Rhodes tries to signal it by having them wear iconic colours or pieces of clothing (red cloaks, red sashes) but some people always seem to think they're seeing a new companion or major NPC, when it's actually just a variation of Inquisitor. 

[9TailsFox]

Yeah this has happened a few times. In the concept art of the Inquisition fortress with the bald elf mage, people didn't seem to realise that the female dwarf was an Inquisitor. 

 

I know Matt Rhodes tries to signal it by having them wear iconic colours or pieces of clothing (red cloaks, red sashes) but some people always seem to think they're seeing a new companion or major NPC, when it's actually just a variation of Inquisitor. 

We have a lot of different Inquisitors it's strange some people don't see it. Well maybe it's because of me I know DA to much so i don't understand.

 

Female human dark skin Inquisitor.

Qunari male I start to believe they have only grey skin with different shades of grey. can someone make 50 shades of grey written by Inquisitor joke.

Female 

Dwarf? female.

Elf Female

 

You can put hungry human food in front of our eyes and we still die.

[Legenlorn]

Umm I think that female elf is a companion, not the inquisitor.