9318 réponses à ce sujet

[ElitePinecone]

To be fair, FemShep did actually get two trailers, as they also did a version of the launch trailer with her. Still far too little, but still.

 

And the vote thing can actually be pretty much put on the fans, as they originally just had the vote on different versions of FemShep and what people liked. To me, it seemed reasonable, as part of the reason of including FemShep was included in to the marketing and that they were going to introduce an iconic version of the character was at least partially due to the vocal fan demand for it. So, it seemed kind of understandable giving those same fans a voice in which iconic version they liked.

 

However, when the version with blond hair won, there was some really insane backlash on the matter, because of there was, as apparently having FemShep having blond hair would have been unrealistic, bimboing or whatever reasons put out. It resulted in Bioware putting out the separate vote on the hair color.

 

I just think it was exceedingly poorly handled. It turned femShep's marketing into a marketing stunt itself, and the contest Facebook page was a cesspool of people commenting on the character's appearance (which was exactly what they were supposed to do, but the debate got stupid in about four seconds). In the middle of so much marketing for other parts of the game, femShep was mentioned in headlines because of her hair colour. 

 

Bioware certainly seemed earnest and sincere in what they were doing, but the spectacle was pretty disheartening to be honest. 

[ElitePinecone]

See also:

 

"BioWare took one of the small handful of non-sexualized female heroes in gaming and put her on stage for the world to judge on appearances alone, aka a f**king beauty pageant."

[mopotter]

I generally won't play a game if I can't be a woman (don't judge me ) and sometimes I really have to dig to find out whether or not it's an option.  Along those lines, I'm also more inclined to buy a game where I can romance someone and that's tough to find out as well.  There are 2 things I wish they would just let be known:

 

1.  Whether it's one gender only

2.  Whether or not there's romance

 

I'm probably the only one who cares about knowing those things, though, so I'll just keep doing my research.

 

And as for not wanting to be a guy, let me just say that Male Shep did not help that feeling any.  Fem Shep's voice acting was awesome (except for the brutally awful drunk-lonely-club-girl lines in ME2 with Jacob.....*shudders*) and I took it for granted.  When I decided it may be fun to be Male Shep (because I totally love ME), I found out that I was HORRIBLY wrong.  I'm sorry, but after Fem Shep, it was like listening to a robot.  Couldn't do it.  Shame.  My Male Shep was pretty hawt. 

No your not the only one.  I am the same way.  Those are my 2 important factors also, though there aren't a lot with romance options in games other than bioware, that I've found.  

 

For years I had to play guys with few exceptions, like Final Fantasy X-2 (which actually I enjoyed even with the fashion based skill tree).

 

So now that there are some games that give me this option I buy them and not the ones with fixed characters, male or female.  I usually will play one or two guys in BioWare games because I want to see what the difference is.

[Mes]

See also:

 

"BioWare took one of the small handful of non-sexualized female heroes in gaming and put her on stage for the world to judge on appearances alone, aka a f**king beauty pageant."

 

Ugh. Where's that dislike button!!

 

This is exactly the sort of stuff that having more exposure to non-sexualized female protagonists can help eradicate.

 

At the very least, if you're going to have a contest like that, have one for the males too - not just the females.

 

Frankly it's a bit embarrassing at this point and I really, really hope we see some kind of improvement when DAI trailers etc finally come out. 

[9TailsFox]

Ugh. Where's that dislike button!!

 

This is exactly the sort of stuff that having more exposure to non-sexualized female protagonists can help eradicate.

 

At the very least, if you're going to have a contest like that, have one for the males too - not just the females.

 

Frankly it's a bit embarrassing at this point and I really, really hope we see some kind of improvement when DAI trailers etc finally come out. 

I don't mind we should have male beauty contest why only girls have good stuff. Almost all male protagonist sexualized. But it  wouldn't be fare we all know who would win.

[Mes]

^^ Hmmmm yes a bit unfair. 

[Brass_Buckles]

I don't mind we should have male beauty contest why only girls have good stuff. Almost all male protagonist sexualized. But it  wouldn't be fare we all know who would win.

 

Not "almost all male protagonists" are sexualized. There's a little of this from the Japanese and Korean developers, particularly in games like Final Fantasy.  But by and large, the ones running around in their underwear (or nearly in just their underwear) are the women.  And a lot of these sexualized characters are actually boys and girls, not men and women, which is kind of creepy if you're over the age of 16.  Most male characters are designed for the "cool" factor, or to look powerful so the player can imagine being that powerful, or they are updated designs on the original.

 

While the picture above is slightly sexualized, he's also not put into an unnatural or sexual pose the way women are when they are sexualized.  So even if it's there, a little, it's still not quite the same thing.  Especially since he's also wearing fairly reasonable clothing, and not standing around in his underwear.

 

I also urge you to remember, "sexy" does not necessarily mean "sexualized."  Yes, the guy above--Dante I think?--is sexualized, I think, due to how they went out of their way to show off his body.  But not severely so.  So the "sexy isn't sexualized" doesn't apply here, but to a lot of characters, it does.  No one tries to make them sexy through their clothing, poses, etc., but people find them to be sexy anyway.

 

And no, I'm not in favor of character beauty contests.  I didn't care for it that much with FemShep, and I don't want to see it elsewhere.  As David Gaider said of the bald elf, they don't and shouldn't make characters solely to be pretty or sexy or whatever, and having beauty contests for characters would only make things worse, not better.  Not to mention the arguing that would ensue because not everyone finds the same thing attractive (even if the media wants us to think we should or do).

 

My honest opinion is that sexualizing and objectifying males is not the answer to the problem of hypersexualizing and objectifying females.  Neither are good things to do, because neither promote respect.

 

What I do want:

• Female Inquisitor in the trailers
• Female inquisitor screenshots

 

Bonus points for Bioware if we get to see Female Inquisitor on the box art as well as the male.

[GVulture]

Not "almost all male protagonists" are sexualized. There's a little of this from the Japanese and Korean developers, particularly in games like Final Fantasy.  But by and large, the ones running around in their underwear (or nearly in just their underwear) are the women.  And a lot of these sexualized characters are actually boys and girls, not men and women, which is kind of creepy if you're over the age of 16.  Most male characters are designed for the "cool" factor, or to look powerful so the player can imagine being that powerful, or they are updated designs on the original.

 

While the picture above is slightly sexualized, he's also not put into an unnatural or sexual pose the way women are when they are sexualized.  So even if it's there, a little, it's still not quite the same thing.  Especially since he's also wearing fairly reasonable clothing, and not standing around in his underwear.

 

I also urge you to remember, "sexy" does not necessarily mean "sexualized."  Yes, the guy above--Dante I think?--is sexualized, I think, due to how they went out of their way to show off his body.  But not severely so.  So the "sexy isn't sexualized" doesn't apply here, but to a lot of characters, it does.  No one tries to make them sexy through their clothing, poses, etc., but people find them to be sexy anyway.

 

And no, I'm not in favor of character beauty contests.  I didn't care for it that much with FemShep, and I don't want to see it elsewhere.  As David Gaider said of the bald elf, they don't and shouldn't make characters solely to be pretty or sexy or whatever, and having beauty contests for characters would only make things worse, not better.  Not to mention the arguing that would ensue because not everyone finds the same thing attractive (even if the media wants us to think we should or do).

 

My honest opinion is that sexualizing and objectifying males is not the answer to the problem of hypersexualizing and objectifying females.  Neither are good things to do, because neither promote respect.

 

What I do want:

• Female Inquisitor in the trailers
• Female inquisitor screenshots

 

Bonus points for Bioware if we get to see Female Inquisitor on the box art as well as the male.

Agreeing with this. Having the protagonist attractive does not equal sexualized. Which is a distinctive that a lot of people forget. When fans are calling for the sexualization to stop. That's all they want. Guys can still have their sexy girls, we just want the camera to stop bending over backwards to show a boob shot. Or for there not to be a "creep on her cleavage button" like in MGS.

 

Unless you have slow-mo shots of hair whipping back and forth and clenching buttocks in skintight... wait... I just described Metal Gear Solid... *cough* Well. *hrm* MGS and Resident Evil are the only game series I can think of that treats the ladies the same as the men. Both japanese developers. I can't name one western studio that does this.

Modifié par GVulture, 14 mars 2014 - 12:57 .

[Steelcan]

This thread again?

[Banxey]

Huh... I watched Conan O'Brien's game "review". Is this the same Tomb Raider you guys are talking about? I confess, I passed the game up because in his video he kept pointing out how the camera kept caressing her assets and what have you... Pandering to a male audience in an obvious way.

 

Did the ladies who've played this game ever think this? If it's not as ridiculous as Conan made it seem (yes I know he knows nothing about games and the review is more for comedic value), then I might give it a shot.

 

That was the game I was talking about. I played it some time last year and don't remember Lara being overtly sexualised. As far as Conan's review.. To be honest, I found it offensive. I think he was unnecessarily skeevy. I know he's trying to be funny, and it's not very entertaining to focus on what a bad*ss Lara is. Or how realistically she handles situations, how intelligent she is, etc.

 

But I guess that is always going to be a problem with female leads in games. People will first ask "Is she hot?" and if yes very little else matters.

[GVulture]

That was the game I was talking about. I played it some time last year and don't remember Lara being overtly sexualised. As far as Conan's review.. To be honest, I found it offensive. I think he was unnecessarily skeevy. I know he's trying to be funny, and it's not very entertaining to focus on what a bad*ss Lara is. Or how realistically she handles situations, how intelligent she is, etc.

 

But I guess that is always going to be a problem with female leads in games. People will first ask "Is she hot?" and if yes very little else matters.

Kinda like how a lot of people here are banging on BEM for not being bangable?

[Steelcan]

I think the best solution for a company that wants to give equal attention to Male and Female variants of the main character is to show off neither.

 

However this is usually not a good idea

[Banxey]

Kinda like how a lot of people here are banging on BEM for not being bangable?

 

Pretty much. Poor Kojak. 

[GVulture]

Pretty much. Poor Kojak. 

Kinda excited to see/hear him in action, but then I was a weirdo that thought Jack looked better with no hair.

[Nefla]

Huh... I watched Conan O'Brien's game "review". Is this the same Tomb Raider you guys are talking about? I confess, I passed the game up because in his video he kept pointing out how the camera kept caressing her assets and what have you... Pandering to a male audience in an obvious way.

 

Did the ladies who've played this game ever think this? If it's not as ridiculous as Conan made it seem (yes I know he knows nothing about games and the review is more for comedic value), then I might give it a shot.

 

I skipped it at first due to a clip of Lara being manhandled with obvious sexual intent by a male thug that a lot of people were in an uproar about saying she got raped and whatnot. I ended up buying it a few months later because I was in a serious gaming lull with nothing out that I wanted, and I'm glad I finally bought it. To my relief there was no rape, just a leer, a shove, and then she gets away. Lara is not actually sexualized in any way. She's dressed the same as a man would be in that scenario (two layered tanktops and pants). I don't want to watch the creepy "review" but if it looked like the angles were sexual or something (like ME2-3) then it must have been edited because I didn't notice anything like that. The game itself is really fun if you like action/adventure and there are some really emotional moments too. Lara's character development from shy, unconfident normal girl to ass kicking hero is great and feels really natural. I would totally recommend this game

 

On topic: I really want gameplay trailers at least that show the CC and a female PC :<

[GVulture]

I skipped it at first due to a clip of Lara being manhandled with obvious sexual intent by a male thug that a lot of people were in an uproar about saying she got raped and whatnot. I ended up buying it a few months later because I was in a serious gaming lull with nothing out that I wanted, and I'm glad I finally bought it. To my relief there was no rape, just a leer, a shove, and then she gets away. Lara is not actually sexualized in any way. She's dressed the same as a man would be in that scenario (two layered tanktops and pants). I don't want to watch the creepy "review" but if it looked like the angles were sexual or something (like ME2-3) then it must have been edited because I didn't notice anything like that. The game itself is really fun if you like action/adventure and there are some really emotional moments too. Lara's character development from shy, unconfident normal girl to ass kicking hero is great and feels really natural. I would totally recommend this game

 

On topic: I really want gameplay trailers at least that show the CC and a female PC :<

Same. The only time it gets questionable is during that scene with the creep and all he does is stroke her face and arm and then try to brutally strangle her... like super brutal. The rest of the time the game's camera acts just the same as it would in something like Uncharted and no one else ever objectifies her that way.

[Ziggy]

Yes please show more Lady Inquisitor!

Being able to play as a female is a major selling point for me - makes it so much easier when quickly scanning for new games if it's an obvious feature. Plus this is the game I'm most looking forward to this year so please feed my anticipation bioware!! 

[ElitePinecone]

What obligation? Their only obligation is to sell games. If it makes sense from a sales standpoint then they should spend the time and money doing female-specific advertising. If it doesn't stand to yield enough additional sales to make it worth it then why should have to do it? Are you going to boycott them if they don't have advertising materials and/or trailers featuring a female Inquisitor? How many people would actually do that?

 

Obligation in the literal sense that a female trailer was something they already promised, a year ago.

[Legenlorn]

Really. If gender/colour is the most important thing in a game instead of what the game has "inside" then I think I'm going to lose faith in humanity. Is having a character be female more fun than the actual content of the game?

[Darth Krytie]

Really. If gender/colour is the most important thing in a game instead of what the game has "inside" then I think I'm going to lose faith in humanity. Is having a character be female more fun than the actual content of the game?

 

Well, it's probably easier to focus on content of games if your identity isn't erased within them. Lots of people want to see themselves reflected in the media they consume and as something positive instead of negative. If you've experienced erasure in media, then it does become very important. It's not very satisfying of a role playing game if you always have to roleplay Straight White Dude since most Set-Protag games also have Straight White Dude. Some of us really need to be able to play as an olive-skinned female lesbian because that's who we are, even if it's only in this one particular game.

[Zelanthair]

I actually stated that it was because we had to choose one to start with.  And unfortunately it probably wasn't a conscious choice either, but rather the ones that come because of habits/assumption/convenience/whatever....  Which is problematic, but I do try to choose my words carefully and feel I have to clarify lest people assume that I did say things in that way.  Not showing the female Inquisitor at this point is not because she's not finalized, but because she's not done enough.

 

Yes the Inquisitor we have shown is "not finalized" but that's a nebulous term because anything from "not-existing at all" to the instant before "done" technically fits into that bucket.

We showed glimpses of Morrigan and Cassandra at the E3 trailer as well, despite not being final (changes have happened since then).  I don't know if anything we've shown fits into the bucket of being completely final.

 

 

Unfortunately, I don't believe fans and the media are that understanding of showing off a clearly unfinished asset.  Imagine that the PAX playthrough was with a temporary body, lacking in any sort of armor (or even texture).  We're giving the same demonstration, and the exact same playthrough, but I think it'd be a big elephant in the room.  I don't think this is a guess either, because I see it with all sorts of games where people really scrutinize pre-alpha content and whatnot.  I think people would go "what the heck are you showing us?"

 

Now demos can suck because they can be a big distraction from work, if we let them be that way.  But, something like the PAX or E3 demo also lets us dive deep to see what it takes to make content that looks presentable and even playable.  Effectively a vertical slice, it takes a small chunk of the breadth of the game and then tries to push that content farther than the rest of the game.  This is useful for letting us know how efficient our tools are (since they had to be recreated, this is extra useful) so we have an idea on how accurate our time estimates are for delivering on all the content for the entire game are.  This is what I am referring to when I say "one is chosen" because splitting that focus between two protagonist models would definitely mean the protagonist doesn't look as good, which definitely means that people are going to scrutinize that aspect of the demo.

 

 

 

 

 

Wasn't the issue more that people didn't know it was supposed to be the Inquisitor?  I remember being in the thread where someone (Sandal) asked why that concept art blitz didn't show any women Inquisitors, and Rhodes came in and shared that there were some.

 

I vote that you upload the gameplay demonstration online (in hd) for those of us who are incapable of making it to PAX. 

[ElitePinecone]

Really. If gender/colour is the most important thing in a game instead of what the game has "inside" then I think I'm going to lose faith in humanity. Is having a character be female more fun than the actual content of the game?

 

Who is saying it's the most important thing?

 

And with respect, who are you to judge why people like games? Liking DA for its combat or exploration is just as valid as liking its characters or roleplaying aspects. Arguably, roleplaying only gains meaning when it interacts with the other content.

 

For a significant number of people, being able to play as a protagonist of their gender and colour is something that brings great enjoyment, and investment in the character as their own. If the reason you're playing games is to feel emotional and intellectual attachment to a character, then yes - it might be extremely important to be able to customise that character to reflect yourself. 

 

Personally, the ability to customise a protagonist is one of the biggest selling features of Bioware's games, and something that immensely enriches their storytelling, It's not the most important part of the game for me, but in combination with the story, companions and decisions, it elevates the game to something much more special. 

[ElitePinecone]

Well, it's probably easier to focus on content of games if your identity isn't erased within them. Lots of people want to see themselves reflected in the media they consume and as something positive instead of negative. If you've experienced erasure in media, then it does become very important. It's not very satisfying of a role playing game if you always have to roleplay Straight White Dude since most Set-Protag games also have Straight White Dude. Some of us really need to be able to play as an olive-skinned female lesbian because that's who we are, even if it's only in this one particular game.

 

This is a much more eloquent version of what I was trying to say above. 

 

Enjoying games is much easier if your customisable protagonist can actually reflect your identity.

[Ziggy]

Really. If gender/colour is the most important thing in a game instead of what the game has "inside" then I think I'm going to lose faith in humanity. Is having a character be female more fun than the actual content of the game?

Not necessarily the most important thing but it is important. Or at least that there are significant female characters in it.

I used to play male dominated games because that's all there was. But now that I've experienced games with fully fleshed out female characters (like half life 2 and, more recently, the last of us) and games that let you play as a non-hyper sexualised female pc (like all bioware games - yay!), I can't to go back.

Seeing your gender/race/sexuality respectfully and equally represented is important.

[Legenlorn]

@ElitePinecone

 

The things you mentioned are what make up the game - combat, characters, roleplaying. But I don't recall npcs reacting to the skin colour of the protag. And the only way they react to (most of the time if not all the time) the sex of the character is when the npc wants to flirt with the PC or the other way around. Now I'm not saying that letting people pick gender/colour is bad or something but for someone to pass on a game because the main character is a white male is a bit offensive to the people who made the game. After all there is more to a game than just a character creator.