9318 réponses à ce sujet

[lyrabelacqua]

It's not the nudity, it's the objectification of women that's the problem. Every male character is different and has different skills and personalities. Every female character is there for the T&A (except Saskia but...yeah) and all the sorceresses blur together in a mass of cleavage and wacky hair. I like their branching plot and political maneuverings but I hope in future games they can branch out and make some female characters that are real and interesting people like the male characters.

Exactly.  I love nudity, but the opening freaking scene of TW2 left a bad taste in my mouth when we get a full frontal shot of Triss in an incredibly vulnerable, borderline humiliating position, whereas Geralt is conveniently covered up.  Talk about double standards; I'd still hate the game, but if there was D all over the place to the same level as V, it wouldn't be quite so galling.  And that set the tone for the rest of the game; I tried to finish it, but all the mouthwatering graphics and clever plot twists in the world couldn't make up for being continually bashed over the head with the idea that pretty much all the female characters were primarily there to be ogled at and bedded.  And then there's the homophobia...

Modifié par lyrabelacqua, 22 juin 2014 - 03:40 .

[Nefla]

Exactly.  I love nudity, but the opening freaking scene of TW2 left a bad taste in my mouth when we get a full frontal shot of Triss in an incredibly vulnerable, borderline humiliating position, whereas Geralt is conveniently covered up.  And that set the tone for the rest of the game; I tried to finish it, but all the mouthwatering graphics and clever plot twists in the world couldn't make up for being continually bashed over the head with the idea that pretty much all the female characters were primarily there to be ogled at and bedded.  And then there's the homophobia...

Yeah...I'm pretty good at ignoring stuff I don't like if I like the overall game but with Dethmold I actually said out loud "wow, they really hate gay guys." (and of course lesbians are just there for men to oogle)

[Maliken]

"Unlike priestesses and druidesses, who only unwillingly took ugly or crippled girls, sorcerers took anyone who showed evidence of a predisposition. If the child passed the first years of training, magic entered into the equation - straightening and evening out legs, repairing bones which had badly knitted, patching harelips, removing scars, birthmarks and pox scars. The young sorceress would become attractive because the prestige of her profession demanded it. The result was pseudo-pretty women with the angry and cold eyes of ugly girls. Girls who couldn't forget their ugliness had been covered by the mask of magic only for the prestige of their profession."

 

That's a passage from The Last Wish, most sorceresses are attractive because they know it's a beneficial trait.

 

Also, there's nothing homophobic regarding Dethmold, there's a entire cast of people in TW2 that do terrible things, just because one of them has a different sexual preference doesn't reduce it to homophobia.

[Lady Nuggins]

Hmm, I looked up this Dethmold person.  He's evil, creepy, keeps sex slaves, and... gets castrated.

 

Like, I obviously haven't played this game, but it sounds to me like the fact that he's gay is a central part of his evilness, and a central part of how he is punished.  That, combined with the fact that he's the only gay character in the game, is very questionable, at best.

 

Nobody is telling you guys that you guys can't enjoy these games, but the more I read about The Witcher, the less impressed I am.

[lyrabelacqua]

"Unlike priestesses and druidesses, who only unwillingly took ugly or crippled girls, sorcerers took anyone who showed evidence of a predisposition. If the child passed the first years of training, magic entered into the equation - straightening and evening out legs, repairing bones which had badly knitted, patching harelips, removing scars, birthmarks and pox scars. The young sorceress would become attractive because the prestige of her profession demanded it. The result was pseudo-pretty women with the angry and cold eyes of ugly girls. Girls who couldn't forget their ugliness had been covered by the mask of magic only for the prestige of their profession."

 

That's a passage from The Last Wish, most sorceresses are attractive because they know it's a beneficial trait.

 

Also, there's nothing homophobic regarding Dethmold, there's a entire cast of people in TW2 that do terrible things, just because one of them has a different sexual preference doesn't reduce it to homophobia.

Tbh, that whole passage is horribly problematic (equating female worth/power with how attractive they are?  ), but we're not talking about the attractiveness of female characters; we're talking about how women in TW are consistently objectified through the male gaze filter and it's never reversed (objectification is never awesome, but if you have to have it in your product, at least make it equal opportunity objectification).

 

Also, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with the depiction of Dethmold as a character if his death/mutilation didn't have really unpleasant sexual connotations and could potentially be read as a punishment for his gayness that seems to derive from the developers' homophobia and doesn't function as an in-universe critique of homophobia.

Modifié par lyrabelacqua, 22 juin 2014 - 05:03 .

[Maliken]

I haven't read all of the novels, but since sorceresses are often deligated as advisors to (male) monarchs, they often use their sexuality to their benefit and generally gain more influence this way. It's not exactly strange that buxom beauty will more easily sway the male mind than an old hag.  I suppose that can be viewed as problematic, but it's also a fact of life.  It's one of the reasons I find TW's setting quite appealing, it doesn't go for a candy-sweet setting of equality and 21st century pseudo-political correctness. It's realistic to a feudal society around a medieval period, and while it's a dark/low fantasy setting, it's still grounded to the real world.

 

As for female characters, I don't think they're necessarily objectified as they are fitting for the setting, and they come in a lot of different variations. There are loving and caring woman, like Shani, there are serious, untrustworthy ones like Sheala, there is Rayla - strong fighter, filled with hatred for other races, there are old hags, lustful prostitutes, women who fight, women who study, women who live simple lives in some remote villages.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Do we really have to keep talking about TW? is just a overrated game series that uses gratuitous sex & nudity in an attempt to be "edgy & adult" as well as to attract some of the more unpleasant sexist gamers who get excited at the thought of putting women "in their place" as sex objects using an alpha male character, the fact that after Sera was announced as gay there were several people saying "f**k you Bioware, ill get TW3 instead" is proof of that. Is pretty much a game for straight males made by straight males, i tried TW1 & it was uncomfortable to play with how it treats female characters, a big reason why i never finished it. Im glad i never tried TW2 with it's sole gay male character being overly evil then getting castrated & killed

[HuldraDancer]

I really wish people would stop bringing up the TW in the DA forums as examples not because I'm anti TW but because I haven't played hardly any of it to understand half the comparisons people are making plus what does, the TW have anything to do with seeing more of the Female Inquisitor? 

 

Also since I hardly go to the main site due to it being slow for my pc half of the time does it have any Female Inquisitor pictures on it yet or have put in that you can pick from different races and both genders? Sorry if that's be asked and answered already I haven't been keeping up with this thread like I should have so I only looked over the last few pages.

[lyrabelacqua]

 It's one of the reasons I find TW's setting quite appealing, it doesn't go for a candy-sweet setting of equality and 21st century pseudo-political correctness. It's realistic to a feudal society around a medieval period, and while it's a dark/low fantasy setting, it's still grounded to the real world.

Nice to know you consider equality to be 'candy-sweet' and 'not realistic' while demons, magic, elves etc. are but whatever.  I agree with PrincessThreat, I'm pretty much done with the Witcher d*ck-waving in these forums.

[In Exile]

Tbh, that whole passage is horribly problematic (equating female worth/power with how attractive they are?  ), but we're not talking about the attractiveness of female characters; we're talking about how women in TW are consistently objectified through the male gaze filter and it's never reversed (objectification is never awesome, but if you have to have it in your product, at least make it equal opportunity objectification).

 

Also, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with the depiction of Dethmold as a character if his death/mutilation didn't have really unpleasant sexual connotations and could potentially be read as a punishment for his gayness that seems to derive from the developers' homophobia and doesn't function as an in-universe critique of homophobia.

To me the (biggest) problem with that paragraph (which is, I know, saying a lot since there are lots of problems) is the last phrase, that ends with "The result was pseudo-pretty women with the angry and cold eyes of ugly girls. Girls who couldn't forget their ugliness had been covered by the mask of magic only for the prestige of their profession". 

 

The idea that these are women tainted by ugliness just squicks the hell right out of me. 

 

Hmm, I looked up this Dethmold person.  He's evil, creepy, keeps sex slaves, and... gets castrated.

 

Like, I obviously haven't played this game, but it sounds to me like the fact that he's gay is a central part of his evilness, and a central part of how he is punished.  That, combined with the fact that he's the only gay character in the game, is very questionable, at best.

 

Nobody is telling you guys that you guys can't enjoy these games, but the more I read about The Witcher, the less impressed I am.

The fact that he's gay isn't part of his evilness as much as it is proof of his evilness. Like a, well, obviously he's gay, being so evil. That's what it felt like, to me. 

[lyrabelacqua]

To me the (biggest) problem with that paragraph (which is, I know, saying a lot since there are lots of problems) is the last phrase, that ends with "The result was pseudo-pretty women with the angry and cold eyes of ugly girls. Girls who couldn't forget their ugliness had been covered by the mask of magic only for the prestige of their profession". 

 

The idea that these are women tainted by ugliness just squicks the hell right out of me. 

 

Ugh, same.  I'm assuming that quote is from one of the novels as well, so why people keep holding them up as the bastion of compelling fantasy storytelling that the games just simply had to be faithful to mystifies me.

 

I...really need to stop talking about this hateful game *thinks nice femquisitor thoughts*

[9TailsFox]

Hmm, I looked up this Dethmold person.  He's evil, creepy, keeps sex slaves, and... gets castrated.

 

Like, I obviously haven't played this game, but it sounds to me like the fact that he's gay is a central part of his evilness, and a central part of how he is punished.  That, combined with the fact that he's the only gay character in the game, is very questionable, at best.

 

Nobody is telling you guys that you guys can't enjoy these games, but the more I read about The Witcher, the less impressed I am.

Dethmold is not only gay character and if you played game you would know he deserve it, Philippa Eilhart is lesbian. So if I understand correctly if person is gay he can't be villain and must have zero bruises, and be only good perfect character, when everyone else in game is tortured and beat like crap.

[Lady Nuggins]

As for female characters, I don't think they're necessarily objectified as they are fitting for the setting, and they come in a lot of different variations. There are loving and caring woman, like Shani, there are serious, untrustworthy ones like Sheala, there is Rayla - strong fighter, filled with hatred for other races, there are old hags, lustful prostitutes, women who fight, women who study, women who live simple lives in some remote villages.

 

And yet the MC has women throwing themselves at him left and right?  And he gets sex conquest trading cards for each woman he sleeps with?  That doesn't sound to me like it has anything to do with realism or a Medieval-esque setting.

 

I don't object to the existance of games like The Witcher, or people enjoying them, even if I find parts of it gross.  But you can't deny that this is clearly made to be a heterosexual male fantasy, in an industry that has no equivalent for women or gay men.  And you can't deny that there would be massive outcry if such a game existed for women or gay men.  If there were, say, a game about Amazonian women fighting each other for dominance and capturing/"rescuing" male sex slaves from villains.  Even though the protagonist is portrayed as a heroine who would never demean men like that herself, male characters somehow seem to wind up stripped down to a loincloth and oiled up whenever she's around.  Men might occasionally be in power in the game, but more often they get killed, kidnapped, and put into punishing and demeaning situations.  If anyone complained about this unbalanced treatment, the devs would shrug and say that that's how the Amazons worked.  Historical accuracy.  Deal with it.

 

I really wish people would stop bringing up the TW in the DA forums as examples not because I'm anti TW but because I haven't played hardly any of it to understand half the comparisons people are making plus what does, the TW have anything to do with seeing more of the Female Inquisitor? 

 

Also since I hardly go to the main site due to it being slow for my pc half of the time does it have any Female Inquisitor pictures on it yet or have put in that you can pick from different races and both genders? Sorry if that's be asked and answered already I haven't been keeping up with this thread like I should have so I only looked over the last few pages.

 

Agreed, I feel like I hear more about The Witcher on this forum than anywhere else in the gaming community.  Stop trying to convince me to play a game that I find alienating.

 

Not that I'm aware of, no.  They've posted the trailer, but have not updated the wording or pictures to include her or the fact that you can choose your gender. 

[9TailsFox]

And yet the MC has women throwing themselves at him left and right?  And he gets sex conquest trading cards for each woman he sleeps with?  That doesn't sound to me like it has anything to do with realism or a Medieval-esque setting.

 

I don't object to the existance of games like The Witcher, or people enjoying them, even if I find parts of it gross.  But you can't deny that this is clearly made to be a heterosexual male fantasy, in an industry that has no equivalent for women or gay men.  And you can't deny that there would be massive outcry if such a game existed for women or gay men.  If there were, say, a game about Amazonian women fighting each other for dominance and capturing/"rescuing" male sex slaves from villains.  Even though the protagonist is portrayed as a heroine who would never demean men like that herself, male characters somehow seem to wind up stripped down to a loincloth and oiled up whenever she's around.  Men might occasionally be in power in the game, but more often they get killed, kidnapped, and put into punishing and demeaning situations.  If anyone complained about this unbalanced treatment, the devs would shrug and say that that's how the Amazons worked.  Historical accuracy.  Deal with it.

I would love RPG Amazons game.

[lyrabelacqua]

Dethmold is not only gay character and if you played game you would know he deserve it, Philippa Eilhart is lesbian. So if I understand correctly if person is gay he can't be villain and must have zero bruises, and be only good perfect character, when everyone else in game is tortured and beat like crap.

I don't care whether he 'deserved' it or not.  The fact that his punishment is specifically sexualised (his genitals cut off and shoved into his mouth, which incidentally has an association with various punishments meted out to gay men in history) makes it extremely difficult to argue that it's not inherently homophobic in its intent.

Modifié par lyrabelacqua, 22 juin 2014 - 07:09 .

[Lady Nuggins]

Dethmold is not only gay character and if you played game you would know he deserve it, Philippa Eilhart is lesbian. So if I understand correctly if person is gay he can't be villain and must have zero bruises, and be only good perfect character, when everyone else in game is tortured and beat like crap.

 

Gay men are not lesbians.  I think we all know why there are lesbians in a series targeting heterosexual males. 

 

You can have gay villains.  Villains can come in all varieties.  But if you have only one gay man in your work, and that gay man keeps sex slaves and gets castrated, that has very unfortunate implications no matter how you dice it.  Especially if he's not a villain who just happens to be gay, but one whose gayness is tied to his evilness (sexual exploitation of other men).  Especially because gay men as villains is a very very common trope. 

 

But seriously, enough of this topic.  This is not a thread for The Witcher, and you're not going to change anybody's mind, here.  Responding to "I'm uncomfortable" with "you're wrong to feel uncomfortable" is really not going to get anybody anywhere.

[HuldraDancer]

Agreed, I feel like I hear more about The Witcher on this forum than anywhere else in the gaming community.  Stop trying to convince me to play a game that I find alienating.

 

Not that I'm aware of, no.  They've posted the trailer, but have not updated the wording or pictures to include her or the fact that you can choose your gender. 

Some of the time it seems like it's not even related to the topic, if people wish to use it as an example that is related to the topic they are discussing I think that's fine but it would really help people like me who know hardly a thing about the game if they explained their examples and again have it related to the topic otherwise why bring it up at all?

 

That's a shame, even more so since I know a lot of people who would love a game like this but are tired of playing men all the time. The website couldn't be very hard to update with a few words could it? It could be for all I know I haven't had to design or update webpages since high-school so my experience on that is limited. Still it would help a lot to have stuff like choosing gender and race on the homepage for people who don't follow it on the forums but see some bits here and there of it and try to look more up on the main site where most of the important information should be. I can't speak for anyone else but I find getting into specifics about customization to be very important information.

[In Exile]

I don't object to the existance of games like The Witcher, or people enjoying them, even if I find parts of it gross.  But you can't deny that this is clearly made to be a heterosexual male fantasy, in an industry that has no equivalent for women or gay men.  And you can't deny that there would be massive outcry if such a game existed for women or gay men.  If there were, say, a game about Amazonian women fighting each other for dominance and capturing/"rescuing" male sex slaves from villains.  Even though the protagonist is portrayed as a heroine who would never demean men like that herself, male characters somehow seem to wind up stripped down to a loincloth and oiled up whenever she's around.  Men might occasionally be in power in the game, but more often they get killed, kidnapped, and put into punishing and demeaning situations.  If anyone complained about this unbalanced treatment, the devs would shrug and say that that's how the Amazons worked.  Historical accuracy.  Deal with it.

 

There's a massive outcry right now on this forum about the straight male Inquisitor potentially have few romance options, so... not only is it not hard to fathom that there would be an outcry, it doesn't even take much to get people... out crying (is that a bad pun?). 

[Ryzaki]

Yes it's terrible. Hang your head in shame.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I don't care whether he 'deserved' it or not.  The fact that his punishment is specifically sexualised (his genitals cut off and shoved into his mouth, which incidentally has an association with various punishments meted out to gay men in history) makes it extremely difficult to argue that it's not inherently homophobic in its intent.

Yeah, that kind of death for a gay man certainly has implications id find uncomfortable.

[Mes]

It took me no time at all to pre-order Witcher 3, I hope CD project red continue making games like this, don't change, and not listen people who cry when see little naked body. No double standards for violence and nudity, it's game for adults not kids. Well everyone like different think and it's probably our European culture is different from America. I hope you find your ideal game, sorry you didn't like witcher, I love it. Mostly in Witcher 2 huge plot twist spoiler

Spoiler

Game have 2 huge branching paths depending on you helping, so called Iorveth or Roche path, First I sided with Roche and killed dragon , Then when I chose Iorveth path it was amazing I when I find out Saskia was dragon and sad I killed her in my first play.

 

Bah. Seeing women consistently bared nude humiliated and abused does not make the consumer an "adult".

 

I think the biggest issue is that it's almost always women suffering this kind of treatment. There's no equivalent video game out there with an old ugly woman running around kicking butt and saving naked hot young men from distressing situations and having sex with them.

 

Edit: Not that this is in any way something I'd want to see. Honestly I don't understand these types of fantasies.

 

Do we really have to keep talking about TW? is just a overrated game series that uses gratuitous sex & nudity in an attempt to be "edgy & adult" as well as to attract some of the more unpleasant sexist gamers who get excited at the thought of putting women "in their place" as sex objects using an alpha male character, the fact that after Sera was announced as gay there were several people saying "f**k you Bioware, ill get TW3 instead" is proof of that. Is pretty much a game for straight males made by straight males, i tried TW1 & it was uncomfortable to play with how it treats female characters, a big reason why i never finished it. Im glad i never tried TW2 with it's sole gay male character being overly evil then getting castrated & killed

 

 

I really wish people would stop bringing up the TW in the DA forums as examples not because I'm anti TW but because I haven't played hardly any of it to understand half the comparisons people are making plus what does, the TW have anything to do with seeing more of the Female Inquisitor? 

 

Talking about the female Inquisitor often brings up wider female issues in other games (as well as media and.. well, the world ) in general. I agree we shouldn't go too off topic but inevitably we always bring ourselves back around to Bioware and how much we love them!! lol

[Aggie Punbot]

We have three and a half months until DAI is released; I have hope that we will be seeing more of the female Inquisitor in the marketing.

[HuldraDancer]

Talking about the female Inquisitor often brings up wider female issues in other games (as well as media and.. well, the world ) in general. I agree we shouldn't go too off topic but inevitably we always bring ourselves back around to Bioware and how much we love them!! lol

 

I suppose, but it would still be nice for me at least if people explained some of the examples they use since I haven't gotten hardly anywhere in TW2 and I doubt I will (due to control issues mostly) plus when TW gets brought up things seem to get heated fast and I'd really rather not see this thread get shut down I like this thread quite a lot.

[Maliken]

Nice to know you consider equality to be 'candy-sweet' and 'not realistic' while demons, magic, elves etc. are but whatever. I agree with PrincessThreat, I'm pretty much done with the Witcher d*ck-waving in these forums.

Don't get me wrong, I support gender equality, but a reccuring theme in the witcher novels is that Geralt often finds more nobility in the creatures he's ordered to hunt, and that humans are the true monsters of the world.

I'm going to stop discussing TW now, I only came up to the defense of it because some of the accusations here are pretty ridiculous. Ciri, arguably the most important character in the books, had a same-sex relationship.

[Lady Nuggins]

Bah. Seeing women consistently bared nude humiliated and abused does not make the consumer an "adult".

 

I think the biggest issue is that it's almost always women suffering this kind of treatment. There's no equivalent video game out there with an old ugly woman running around kicking butt and saving naked hot young men from distressing situations and having sex with them.

 

Edit: Not that this is in any way something I'd want to see. Honestly I don't understand these types of fantasies.

 

I don't either.  I tried to be actively gross in my Amazon example to show how ridiculous it looks when it's the other way around.  I mean, a female heroine who gets to rescue dudes in distress and initiate casual sex with whoever she likes would at least be amusing for the novelty of it.  But I'm never a fan of any kind of character being objectified, humiliated, or killed casually and unjustly, and I wouldn't want it done to men either.

 

I suppose, but it would still be nice for me at least if people explained some of the examples they use since I haven't gotten hardly anywhere in TW2 and I doubt I will (due to control issues mostly) plus when TW gets brought up things seem to get heated fast and I'd really rather not see this thread get shut down I like this thread quite a lot.

 

Yeah, I just don't want this thread getting shut down.  It is relevant to a discussion of women in video games, but every time it's brought up, a bunch of people seem to get super defensive about that game.