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[Danny Boy 7]

You have official numbers showing that half of BioWare's customers are women? And I'm not saying that they shouldn't market to women. I'm saying they have NO obligation to do so unless it makes financial sense for them.


Nowhere did I say you said they should only market to women or only show female characters. You're trying to put words in my mouth.
And we seriously need to drop this notion half of gamers are women. Those numbers are misleading because they treat mobile games like Flappy Bird the same as Dragon Age and for our purposes that's ridiculous. Most console gamers are still men by a sizable margin and most PC gamers are men by a huge margin. Women don't actually make up half of Inquisition's potential customers. I wish more women were playing "hardcore" games since it probably reduce the likelihood of homophobic slurs being bandied about on XBox but alas, that is simply not the case.

 

Okay since Allan has stepped in and said to move this to the other thread I'll make sure this is my last post on the matter (while also apologizing to ElitePineCone for derailing his thread further). I was honestly going to make an attempt to search the web for the numbers, but its clear that regardless of whether I did find it, hell if the head of BioWare's Marketing, Social Network or whoever's job it is to measure these things came in here and said straight off that women made up half of their gamer base or even slightly more than half that you would nitpick anything put in front of you.

 

Does BioWare have an obligation to market to women? Yes they do. If they feel that their female gamer base is large enough or that the potential growth the demographic could have is positively influenced by marketing/appealing to women, however small they owe it to their investors to do their best and increase sales. They are OBLIGATED to do everything within their power to increase sales not only on a short term, but long term basis. Does that mean these investors are on the pulse of gaming and know that there is a large and continually growing female gamer base? I don't know, but I'm sure they'd hope that this market is at least within consideration and in the case of Dragon Age's gamerbase being catered to.
 

You know you're ready to jump down other people's throats on where they get their numbers, but are just as quick to start spewing conjecture. How many of these people who play a lot of mobile games branch out into what you consider hardcore games? How many are influenced by media campaigns that positively portray someone in their demographic playing that game?

 

In short, women are paying customers just as much as men

[ElitePinecone]

@ElitePinecone

 

The things you mentioned are what make up the game - combat, characters, roleplaying. But I don't recall npcs reacting to the skin colour of the protag. And the only way they react to (most of the time if not all the time) the sex of the character is when the npc wants to flirt with the PC or the other way around. Now I'm not saying that letting people pick gender/colour is bad or something but for someone to pass on a game because the main character is a white male is a bit offensive to the people who made the game. After all there is more to a game than just a character creator.

 

From what I've read on this thread and others like it, I think it's got more to do with a sense of ownership over the character (or identifying with the character). 

 

I'm not going to put words in others' mouths, but it seems that reactivity to gender or skin colour isn't really what people are wanting - it's the chance to do all the game's content as a woman/person of colour/etc. The character is intrinsically important to them, regardless of whether it's reflected in the gameworld. This sprawling fantasy adventure is made far more meaningful for some people if they can do it as someone they identify with, and they feel more invested in the game and its plot as a result. If people play games to be immersed in a fantasy world, or as a form of escapism, then a game like Dragon Age is far more attractive and appealing if you can make a protagonist that looks like you. 

 

I acknowledge that some stories do genuinely work better with a fixed protagonist (who is, nine times out of ten, a white straight male), but they usually don't offer nearly the interactivity and narrative branching that Bioware's games do. I think when developers do create stories in which players can immerse themselves and in which the protagonist is more of a blank slate, they should at least strongly consider that half the world's population won't find themselves reflected in the resulting game if the player-character is only male. It very much depends on what type of experience the developers are shooting for, but in games with customisable protagonists gender and racial options are justifiably very important for some players. 

[Jaspe84]

If people are seriously choosing a game based on protag's gender, instead of story/gameplay etc. , then i have once again lost all hope in humanity because that is just really stupid in my opinion. I like playing a female character in games that allow it but protag's gender is at the bottom of the list when im choosing a game and i do like customization and gender choice is bottom of that list too but alas we were told to take this discussion elsewhere so i will stop babbling now.

[Paul E Dangerously]

Really. If gender/colour is the most important thing in a game instead of what the game has "inside" then I think I'm going to lose faith in humanity. Is having a character be female more fun than the actual content of the game?

 

Marketing is serious business. Even when the game is months and months away from completion and we've really yet to get an extended look at any inquisitor* and the marketing phase of the game hasn't even kicked in yet. You think people would learn by this point.

 

*Demo footage aside, since that hasn't been officially released.

[Caligula]

You guys might be interested in watching David Gaider's "Sex in Video Games" lecture, here. I can definitely recommend just watching the whole thing, though the chapters "statistics" to "is there an untapped market out there?", "increased scrutiny", "videogames as an art" and "privilege" are especially relevant.

[ladyofpayne]

If people are seriously choosing a game based on protag's gender, instead of story/gameplay etc. , then i have once again lost all hope in humanity because that is just really stupid in my opinion. 

DAI will be only RPG in this year that allows women play their own sex you know.

[Enad]

 

 

I wonder if you'd feel it was so unimportant if YOU were forced to play a set Asian female with blonde hair and a bob haircut with the same bland non-personality in almost EVERY single game for your entire life and those games involved little to none of the things you liked and hours of bedazzling high heeled shoes? And even the ones where you could play something else or weren't about shoe sparkles never mentioned it but instead shoved default lady in your face and made you think it was just more of the same.

 

You are right with this statement. That would turn me off the game quite a bit. Thankfully, we're on a DA forum, where you have gender options. The reason I posted initially was because I don't understand the need to complain when it comes to Dragon Age or Bioware in general. They tend to give you a male/female option in just about every game of theirs. My point was I don't see why it matters who's marketed, you already know you can be a female if you're here on this forum with 2k posts.

 

From a marketing aspect, male protagonists do sell better. Your average clueless gamer needs to see some cool badass dude on the cover with explosions or guns or something.It's just the way it is. I wouldn't get too worked up if Bioware doesn't use the female inquisitor in marketing, but I already believe they will. They haven't even properly marketed yet, no need to get upset now.

[XMissWooX]

It's no wonder men don't see the problem here. They get to play as their own sex/gender in about 90% of video games.
They have no idea what it's like to have their sex/gender ignored in marketing over and over and over again - no really, they have no idea because it's *never* happened to them.

Now I'm not against the 'white male protagonist' being used in marketing, especially when they are the game's sole or main protagonist. But it's getting a little old:
Dragon Age Origins: you could have played as a male/female human/elf/dwarf of any colour. The white male human gets picked for marketing.
Dragon Age 2: you could have played as a male/female human of any colour. The white male gets picked for marketing.
Mass Effect: you could have played as a male/female human of any colour. The white male gets picked for marketing.
Mass Effect 2: you could have played as a male/female human of any colour. The white male gets picked for marketing.
Mass Effect 3: you could have played as a male/female human of any colour. The white male gets picked for marketing. Eventually, the white female is given a place in marketing.

So, just maybe, we can do something a little different for DAI?

[Caligula]

Marketing is serious business. Even when the game is months and months away from completion and we've really yet to get an extended look at any inquisitor* and the marketing phase of the game hasn't even kicked in yet. You think people would learn by this point.

 

*Demo footage aside, since that hasn't been officially released.

 

I don't understand this "it's too early to talk about this issue, marketing hasn't started yet" argument. Bioware doesn't have a good track record when it comes to using a female protagonist in their marketing. What we've seen so far in the demonstrations and trailers gives female fans no reason to be very optimistic that things will be different this time. What will make this trend in DA's marketing change, if it isn't female fans speaking out and expressing their frustration before the marketing phase, when Bioware can still collect and implement feedback?

 

You're in a thread in the "Feedback & Suggestions" subforum, for crying out loud.

[Legenlorn]

How about Bioware just makes a video about a female inquisitor, throws some concept arts with women in them and then just continues to market the inquisitor without showing or personalising him?

[Andraste_Reborn]

DAI will be only RPG in this year that allows women play their own sex you know.

 

That's actually not true - I'm playing Dragonfall at the moment, the first DLC for Shadowrun Returns, as a female dwarf right now. (Well, not right now. It's minimised in the background at this precise second.) There's also Pillars of Eternity due this northern winter, although it's possible that will mean January or February of next year rather than this December. Plus Torment: Tides of Numenera and Wasteland 2 are on the way; I think they're both meant to ship some time this year.

 

Most CRPGs allow you to play a female character these days. And most CRPGs do a lousy job of advertising this fact.

[ladyofpayne]

I mean AAA title.

[Allan Schumacher]

Transplanting some posts from the Twitter thread.

[ElitePinecone]

You guys might be interested in watching David Gaider's "Sex in Video Games" lecture, here. I can definitely recommend just watching the whole thing, though the chapters "statistics" to "is there an untapped market out there?", "increased scrutiny", "videogames as an art" and "privilege" are especially relevant.

 

100% agree, it's absolutely worth watching for anyone interested in the topics in this thread. 

 

He goes into some statistics from Bioware's games, and then there's a nice argument at the end about how the industry should be approaching this issue from a business perspective. 

[Nefla]

If people are seriously choosing a game based on protag's gender, instead of story/gameplay etc. , then i have once again lost all hope in humanity because that is just really stupid in my opinion. I like playing a female character in games that allow it but protag's gender is at the bottom of the list when im choosing a game and i do like customization and gender choice is bottom of that list too but alas we were told to take this discussion elsewhere so i will stop babbling now.

You need something to spark your interest before you will go out and research a game. If it looks like another Call of Duty/Gears of War/etc...clone then it is of no interest to me and I will not go out of my way to find out more. Being able to choose my gender and ethnicity is very important to ME even if it isn't to you. Combat, visuals, cinematics, those things are at the very bottom of my list but I understand many people find them essential and who am I to argue someone's tastes? I wan to know I can play a woman because in 90% of games I am forced to cross dress.

[kukumburr]

Really. If gender/colour is the most important thing in a game instead of what the game has "inside" then I think I'm going to lose faith in humanity. Is having a character be female more fun than the actual content of the game?

 

It's not the most important thing to me but that doesn't mean it's not important at all. I've played and enjoyed plenty of games that don't let you play as a female character. But if I'm looking at two equally interesting games and one shows just a male protagonist and the other shows a female (or a choice between the two), I'm more likely to pick the one that lets me be female.

 

There are a lot of video games to choose from and I know I'm not going to buy them all, so I'm going to be more likely to pick ones that go out of their way to show that they value me as a customer. This is more important to me in RPGs, but it stands out even in games where your character is just a shell. For example, when I played the Titanfall beta I went into it without knowing much about it other than "mechs and shooting" but when I saw that some of the pilots you could choose were women that weren't overtly sexualized it made me appreciate the game more. Was it the only thing I cared about? No, but it made it stand out to me and I felt like they actually wanted women to play the game.

 

So anyways, I think if a game has put resources into character customization like BioWare games have then it makes sense for marketing to reflect this.

[Felya87]

I remeber when I had played Mass Effect for the first time. I was totally unaware there was the possibility of playng as a female. My joy was enormous. But I had no idea I could choose.

So, I think it's a feature that need to be marketed much more. Just as much as being a mage or a warrior.

[Andraste_Reborn]

I mean AAA title.

 

Are there any other AAA single-player CRPGs coming out this year, though? The Witcher 3 has been pushed out to February 2015. There are some MMORPGs, but all of those allow you to play a female character as well.

[Mes]

Are there any other AAA single-player CRPGs coming out this year, though? The Witcher 3 has been pushed out to February 2015. There are some MMORPGs, but all of those allow you to play a female character as well.

 

Is Bound by Flame considered AAA? (Sorry I'm a bit confused as to what that term means ). The PC's gender and appearance are customizable, though you'd never know from the trailer. Cue in older bearded white dude! 

[Andraste_Reborn]

Is Bound by Flame considered AAA? (Sorry I'm a bit confused as to what that term means ). The PC's gender and appearance are customizable, though you'd never know from the trailer. Cue in older bearded white dude! 

 

Good point, I'd forgotten that one. And it's funny you should mention it - the only publicity I'd seen for this was shots of Broody McWhitedude there. I hadn't even realised there were companions until I went and poked around the website just now, let alone that you can customise the PC. Now I'm actually interested in the game.

 

I think Bound in Flame is probably AAA - it certainly looks pretty. Which, as far as I can work out, is what AAA seems to mean . So I guess that means there are two AAA CRPGs due out this year, unless I'm forgetting something else.

 

Once again, I think this goes to show that the problem these days isn't usually that CRPGs don't let people play female characters. There are a few anomalies like The Witcher and Alpha Protocol and The Stick of Truth, but almost all games with a customisable lead let you play as a woman. The problem is that most games do a terrible job of telling you that this is an option - and so far, Inquisition is no exception.

[9TailsFox]

Is Bound by Flame considered AAA? (Sorry I'm a bit confused as to what that term means ). The PC's gender and appearance are customizable, though you'd never know from the trailer. Cue in older bearded white dude! 

http://en.wikipedia....Gaming_industry

An AAA title is intend to demonstrate the very best within a gaming company or franchising.^[8] Examples of such games are: Super Mario Galaxy, Assassin's Creed, Halo, Uncharted, Mass Effect, Fallout: New Vegas, Angry Birds, GTA V, and Fez. Others like Aliens: Colonial Marines, although initially regarded to be AAA.

 

​So AAA title means absolutely nothing, just some people think they are cool because they play AAA games and mostly don't even know what it means.

[9TailsFox]

 

Once again, I think this goes to show that the problem these days isn't usually that CRPGs don't let people play female characters. There are a few anomalies like The Witcher and Alpha Protocol and The Stick of Truth, but almost all games with a customisable lead let you play as a woman. The problem is that most games do a terrible job of telling you that this is an option - and so far, Inquisition is no exception.

The Witcher is game based on books series and we even can't customise Geralt well we can change hair in Witcher 2. I couldn't believe but there actualy people who ask why we can't play as female in witcher.  Alpha protocol I actually don't see reason why not. And South park I was surprised we can't maybe because Cartman just make sexist jokes and don't let you play.

[XMissWooX]

The Witcher is game based on books series and we even can't customise Geralt well we can change hair in Witcher 2. I couldn't believe but there actualy people who ask why we can't play as female in witcher.

I think it's less a case of 'I want to play as a female Geralt' and more a case of 'I want to play as a female in the Witcher games'.
One of the things that turns me off of the Witcher games is the set protagonist - I like to have a deep level of aesthetic and character customisation. The developers rather restrict themselves by insisting on using the same character from the books, which then can't be customised at all (it will always be a straight, white male).

[mopotter]

You need something to spark your interest before you will go out and research a game. If it looks like another Call of Duty/Gears of War/etc...clone then it is of no interest to me and I will not go out of my way to find out more. Being able to choose my gender and ethnicity is very important to ME even if it isn't to you. Combat, visuals, cinematics, those things are at the very bottom of my list but I understand many people find them essential and who am I to argue someone's tastes? I wan to know I can play a woman because in 90% of games I am forced to cross dress.

Me too.  I don't buy a lot of games, maybe one or two a year, so if there are two games out there that look good, I'm going to buy the one I know I can play as a female.  If sometime down the road I hear that the other one has that option I'll pick it up but as you said, if it looks like something I'm not interested in I won't check it out further.

 

Happened with Fall Out 3.  That came out in 2008, I found out about it about 3 years after that, picked it up on sale and loved it. Well loved it after I found out about broken steel. 

[WildOrchid]

Really. If gender/colour is the most important thing in a game instead of what the game has "inside" then I think I'm going to lose faith in humanity. Is having a character be female more fun than the actual content of the game?

 

Why don't you ask this to devs who do games that have dudebro protagonists since as you said the story is most important?

Your argument would be valid if 98% of games didn't have white straight dudebros in them.... the moment POC or female or characters with a sexuality other than hetero aren't in enough games, then it's only logical to see people bringing this discussion. The world does not have only white straight dudebros.

 

The games really, really need to change, not only the characters but the stories as well..... and let's face it, most games that have dudebros who are trying way too hard to look "badass" in them have horrible, overused, repeated scenarios.

 

 

And yes, to me is even more fun if the character is female or better gay female, considering how rare it is.