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[Bob from Accounting]

Oh, one last Mass Effect post. Forgive me, but it's too central to the topic to ignore.

 

If you notice, the male characters don't have a reason to be 'warriors.' They don't have a justification. They just are because they are. Zaeed, Jacob, James, Wrex, Garrus. They're men and they know how to fight. There's no further reason needed.

 

But look at the female companions. They know how to fight because there was a strong reason they had to know.

 

Ashley -  warrior because she has a very heavy family history in the military

Miranda - not her choice, warrior because she was trained to be perfect

Jack - not her choice, warrior because she was built as a test case for human biotic potential

Samara - warrior because she decided to hunt her daughter.

Liara - probably not a warrior until she met and was trained by Shepard.

Tali - the same, probably not a warrior until she met and was trained by Shepard.

 

How many people noticed that?

 

I sure noticed. And I approve.

 

But once again. I've never seen any complaints about that.

[oceanicsurvivor]

Oh, one last Mass Effect post. Forgive me, but it's too central to the topic to ignore.

 

If you notice, the male characters don't have a reason to be warriors. They don't have a justification. They just are because they are. Zaeed, Jacob, James, Wrex, Garrus. They're men and they know how to fight. There's no further reason needed.

 

But look at the female companions. They only know how to fight because there was a strong reason they had to know.

 

Ashley -  warrior because she has a very heavy family history in the military

Miranda - not her choice, warrior because she was trained to be perfect

Jack - not her choice, warrior because she was built as a test case for human biotic potential

Samara - warrior because she decided to hunt her daughter.

Liara - probably not a warrior until she met and was trained by Shepard.

Tali - the same, probably not a warrior until she met and was trained by Shepard.

 

But once again. I've never seen any complaints about that.

 

I really don't understand your point then? THIS is a fantastic article about just that sorta thing. And clearly this is an issue in gaming. I don't think its as prevelent in Bioware games however. It not being discussed, or that sort of issue/trend being ignored doesn't mean it isn't problematic, it just means it hasn't been discussed. And I feel like you're saying its problematic? But also that doesn't seem to be your point? So...? I'm confused, sorry

[Blue Gloves]

Oh, one last Mass Effect post. Forgive me, but it's too central to the topic to ignore.

 

If you notice, the male characters don't have a reason to be 'warriors.' They don't have a justification. They just are because they are. Zaeed, Jacob, James, Wrex, Garrus. They're men and they know how to fight. There's no further reason needed.

 

But look at the female companions. They know how to fight because there was a strong reason they had to know.

 

Ashley -  warrior because she has a very heavy family history in the military

Miranda - not her choice, warrior because she was trained to be perfect

Jack - not her choice, warrior because she was built as a test case for human biotic potential

Samara - warrior because she decided to hunt her daughter.

Liara - probably not a warrior until she met and was trained by Shepard.

Tali - the same, probably not a warrior until she met and was trained by Shepard.

 

How many people noticed that?

 

I sure noticed. And I approve.

 

But once again. I've never seen any complaints about that.

 

I disagree- if your head over to the ME thread- which is where this post probably belongs, incidentally - you will see reasons for Thane becoming what he is, Garrus becoming what he is, and James as well.  Granted, James' story is given in comics rather than in games, but I digress.

 

Every point you seem to be making suggests that you understand what many of us are saying, that you disagree, and that you really don't care all that much.  I may be misreading you, if so, I apologize.  However, if I'm interpreting your statements correctly, then why are you here, exactly?  Did you have a suggestion or feedback on the topic, besides that you approve of clearly delineated gender roles?  I'd be interested to hear it, if so, because you seem to have a good grasp on the issue (as least, as its related to Mass Effect).  So far, however, you seem to be simply attempting to present the same view point over and over.  We get it- you approve of things the way they are.  You're certainly as entitled as the rest of us, but was there actually anything else relevant you were trying to get across?

[aTigerslunch]

Catching up but figured out what I am going to say here finally.  Some women have pointed this out already. Some men must not been around certain women to realize, those bouncing are uncomfortable if not set right. I been with couple ladies that kept complaining when moving too much cause they wasn't covered properly. I heard some friends say they need to go home to get the proper outfit to do activities. Hence, a female avatar with no actual support doesn't make sense at all when hear it so much from women in real life. Martial artists and others have used cloth wraps to tie themselves down at those places, and I been to quite a few. I was part of one myself. This is whats going on about the complaint of that shirt covering. Her outfit kinda matches the male BUT she isn't properly tied down. This is the problem, not her outfit cause the female qunari there matches her male counterpart otherwise, besides the tie down.  Its either me or just lack of many guys that gets to hear this stuff in real life? (wonder about sisters if they haven't complained to brothers, which my sisters have done.)

 

Not sure why still defending an outfit when its being pointed out of lack of support, and yes, I am only up to page 153, trying to catch up so if couple of these guys figured it out after page 153, then Awesome. 

[oceanicsurvivor]

So, so far...we've seen Human Male Inquisitor (Warrior), Dwarven Male Inquisitor (warrior), and Qunari Female Inquisitor (mage)...do you think that means Elven Female Inquisitor (rogue) is the next to be shown? Cause I definitely want to see the new look for the elves...of course we didn't really see the dwarven Inquisitors face either...

[Bob from Accounting]

My point is that you're probably a lot more accepting of so called 'double standards' than you think. That when they exist, people, including people that I imagine would consider themselves very feminist or whatever, are often completely accepting and even approving of them. Not all 'double standards' of course, but certainly some.

 

And that calling for the elimination of all double standards is therefore not a good idea.

[Blue Gloves]

Oh yes^ I am excited to see the new elves!  I really like the way Sera looks- right from the choppy "I hacked it off with a dagger" hair to the (blessedly) non-droopy eaars and less alien-like skull.  Can't wait to see what my Dalish Inquisitor will look like when I finally get done playing with my already beloved Cadash!

 

On that note- I also can't wait to see the new dwarves in the CC- think they'll still have Gorilla Arms?

[Ser Pounce A Lot_]

I want to see the Elven and Qunari Male, those are the two characters I think I'll be using for my first two playthroughs.

[Blue Gloves]

My point is that you're probably a lot more accepting of so called 'double standards' than you think. That when they exist, people, including people that I imagine would consider themselves very feminist or whatever, are often completely accepting and even approving of them. Not all 'double standards' of course, but certainly some.

 

And that calling for the elimination of all double standards is therefore not a good idea.

 

Hmmm, well, we all have our biases, I think you'd be very hard pressed to find a "perfect" humanist, and I certainly believe that there's merit to the argument that if we eliminate every type of gender identifier we will be eliminating some of the wonderful aspects of both femininity and masculinity that we should be celebrating.  However, many of the gender biases and roles we have in place are harmful- both to men and women, I think it's a step in the right direction to try and eliminate as many of the double standards as we can- if not every aspect of what is essentially female, and what is essentially male... LOL- this is starting to remind me of a heated debate we had several years ago in a Hawaiian studies class where we debated the merits of the kapu eating system and luakini worship as it pertain to male and female akua and aumakua.

[Lady Nuggins]

So, so far...we've seen Human Male Inquisitor (Warrior), Dwarven Male Inquisitor (warrior), and Qunari Female Inquisitor (mage)...do you think that means Elven Female Inquisitor (rogue) is the next to be shown? Cause I definitely want to see the new look for the elves...of course we didn't really see the dwarven Inquisitors face either...

 

I sure hope so!  

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 25 juin 2014 - 03:46 .
Removed reference to deleted post.

[Mes]

So, so far...we've seen Human Male Inquisitor (Warrior), Dwarven Male Inquisitor (warrior), and Qunari Female Inquisitor (mage)...do you think that means Elven Female Inquisitor (rogue) is the next to be shown? Cause I definitely want to see the new look for the elves...of course we didn't really see the dwarven Inquisitors face either...

 

I'd be really keen to see a male elf Inquisitor actually... Just to see what kind of variety we can have in terms of looks!

 

snippity SNIP

 

Right I'm pretty sure you're just trolling now. I don't appreciate you insisting on starting arguments. We've been trying really hard to stay away from Mass Effect topics but you won't let go.

[Bob from Accounting]

Hmmm, well, we all have our biases, I think you'd be very hard pressed to find a "perfect" humanist, and I certainly believe that there's merit to the argument that if we eliminate every type of gender identifier we will be eliminating some of the wonderful aspects of both femininity and masculinity that we should be celebrating.  However, many of the gender biases and roles we have in place are harmful- both to men and women, I think it's a step in the right direction to try and eliminate as many of the double standards as we can- if not every aspect of what is essentially female, and what is essentially male... LOL- this is starting to remind me of a heated debate we had several years ago in a Hawaiian studies class where we debated the merits of the kapu eating system and luakini worship as it pertain to male and female akua and aumakua.

 

Might I ask what those aspects of femininity and masculinity we should be celebrating are?

[Nefla]

I wish I could draw so badly. Or at least, I wish I knew someone who was good at drawing and could make pictures of my characters based on my specifications. I have so many interesting mental images in my head, and no way to make them readily accessible for public assessment.

 

Sadly, a drunken snake's drawing skills handily beat mine.

A journey of 1,000 miles begins with a single step, it's never too late to start on that path you could also try using a detailed character creator like the one from The Sims 3 or Saints Row IV to make a visual of those characters.

 

So let's bring it back to Dragon Age.  While we're on the topic of makeovers, what are your guys' thoughts on what we've seen of Leliana and Morrigan?  From the perspective of female representation, that is.  I know lots of people have opinions on their hotness or lack thereof, but I want to talk about them more in the vein of what we've been discussing here.

I don't really care about Leliana's changes since I don't really like her and don't actually want her in the game at all :/ Morrigan was a character I loved though and I just think she doesn't really look like herself, especially around the mouth. I'll chalk it up to a new engine though and not be too bothered by it.

 

Good idea. Here's a (I hope) more suitable potential topic:

 

What would you guys like to see as gender specific content in DAI, if at all?

I'll repost this that I said a long time ago but would still like:

 

It would be cool if there were some gender specific quest options such as you need to sneak into the chantry and male characters have to sneak through the back, but females have the option of posing as a priest (or either gender could pass the equivalent of a speech check and convince the priests they are making a delivery or something) or a much less savory example would be something like a female rape victim only being willing to open up to a female PC. Your female PC could express fear of becoming a broodmother when in the deep roads, talk about pretty pretty dresses with other female NPCs/companions, etc...In SWtOR in the Jedi Knight story, there is this Twi'lek girl you can befriend, if you're female you can become blood sisters with her and I love sister type stuff (Morrigan's sisterly talk in DA:O actually made me cry). Some random ideas

 

-Band of all female bandits/thugs is harassing a remote village, when female PC goes to the village and is clearly a fighter (and a stanger), the villagers jump to the conclusion that she's one of them

 

-You have to escort a noble guy to safety but do it subtly, if female you can pretend to be his wife in order to keep close by in a high ranking area such as a palace

 

-Get makeup tips from Vivienne    

 

-There is a female duchess or first enchanter, etc...and if female you can impersonate her to get by security

 

-Band of Qunari less willing to fight female PC because they think ladies don't fight

 

Of course have similar kinds of situations but where male PCs have the upper hand. Also I really want my race to be recognized as much as possible, and yes I want Orlesians to call my male and female elves pretty.

[ladyiolanthe]

I was chatting with a female colleague at work today about how excited I am for DAI. She plays video games, too, and has played all of the ME but none of the DA games. She did ask me whether you can play a female in DAI. She explained that she is not really interested in playing games where she has to be a guy. So... anyway, I told her yes, absolutely, she can be female.  I also rattled on about all the other things I'm really excited about, and she is thinking of buying it now. But she wouldn't have, if she didn't know she could play as a female avatar.

[themikefest]

Liara - probably not a warrior until she met and was trained by Shepard.

False. My femshep had no reason to train her. Nor would she want to.

[Allan Schumacher]

How many people noticed that?

 

I sure noticed. And I approve.

 

But once again. I've never seen any complaints about that.

 

 

I don't consider it a good thing.  I'm replaying Fallout New Vegas and I love that some of the NCR soldiers are women with no explanation given.  There's no need to give one.  I also like that they complain about similar random and inane things as the men, like how they wished the posting had more time for leisure activity like gambling on the strip.

[Blue Gloves]

Might I ask what those aspects of femininity and masculinity we should be celebrating are?

 

Of course!

I'm agnostic, bordering on atheist, but someone else (not sure exactly who, my apologies for the awful citation and the probably mangled quote, it's from memory) said, far more succinctly than I'm able: "The dance of the divine in both genders is not about lighting candles, chanting in a circle, gathering with the once-a-month goddess group or down at the local bar on arm-wrestling night trying to reclaim a lost ‘look at me, i create fire!’ masculine. it’s about being authentic, whole-in-what-we-project humans, embracing both the idle routine and the sacred within ourselves and within each other."  Now, as I said, I'm happy that gods and goddesses fulfill a place in other people's lives, but I am skeptical myself.  However, I like what this (unfortunately unremembered ) person had to say: each gender has something valuable and precious to contribute to existence, so why not celebrate both sides equally?

My personal opinion on what, exactly, we should celebrate?

Feminine: the cyclical beauty and pain of child bearing and reproduction, the innate connection to our offspring (a ton of interesting scientific data on this one as well, and an interesting debate point in and of itself when it come to the discussion about the biological imperative, if it exists, and if so, how much influence it has over our lives) and the language and communication skills gifted by the sex hormones that fire the "language nodes" in both hemispheres of our brains (of course- that one's of particular importance to me, both because of my background as a linguist and my current focus in studies and work)

 

Masculine: the enhanced capability to view situations through a logical filter and to better navigate spatial and logical situations due to the increased activity in their left hippocampi during such activities and the natural ability to appreciate their sexual partners and desire intimacy despite peccidillos like a few extra pounds around the hips or the godawful bangs that the hairstylist accidentally gave him/her (said sexual partner)- that's another interesting discussion which has its roots in neuroscience as well... but again, I digress. 

 

None of that is to say that females can't develop the abilities of males and vice versa (well, except for the child birth thing), its just to say that in many examples of humanity, those specific traits are thought to be innate and directly related to the way our brains form as a result of our sex hormones.  I think the differences are wonderful, and have lent to the perpetuation of the species, since they allow the masculine and the feminine to coexist in a more coherent manner. 

 

On the other hand, I believe that the very thing that makes us sentient is our ability to rise above our "base programming" and act in a manner that might not ensure our survival as individuals or a species, but that might benefit others- so what the hell do I really know, anyway?

[Bob from Accounting]

I don't consider it a good thing.  I'm replaying Fallout New Vegas and I love that some of the NCR soldiers are women with no explanation given.  There's no need to give one.

 

There's no need to give one to background characters whose combat ability never really enters the narrative and who exist in a somewhat goofy setting, yes.

[aTigerslunch]

I'm sure women appreciate attractive men, but it's just not in the same way men respond to attractive women.

 

People have done studies where very attractive actors propositioned strangers for sex. The percentage of men that agreed to do so was insanely high, the percentage of women that agreed was near or at zero.

 

So doing things 'equal opportunity' is just not the smartest solution.

I would be one of those men that would of said no. I actually have turned down one on the premise of sex cause that is not what I want only. My ex gf came back to me wanting the same but told her no as well. To their benefit, tons of guys chase them two, I don't do that and wont, so if say Jessica Alba showed up or Selena Gomez or any other one, I would turn them down. It wouldn't be easy but I would say no thank you. It wasn't easy to say no to the other two I listed here.

 

LOL!!

 

Dude you realize that women are taught all their lives to fear being assaulted and raped by strange men? We are always, always taught to be on our guard in various situations, whereas men are taught they have nothing to fear.

 

So to me that study shows that women are much more reluctant to hook up with a stranger out of fear of their own safety than because they don't respond to attractive men.

 

Goodness you are living in a bit of a cave, friend!

This is part of the problem I hear recently with a few people. A guy was taken to jail recently for sexual encounter with a woman, it turned out later she lied. Another reason I try to avoid situations less I know the person extremely well. Actually, I had turned so many down in my past that I was asked if I was gay. 

 

Good question, and a difficult one for me personally! I really view both genders as equals in pretty much every way, childbirth being the only thing exclusive to women at this point... I know that random NPCs pointing out that my character is female (particularly in a derogatory way) would be quite immersion-breaking for me, and I hope to Andraste that we don't get any more of that "I'm a woman and I'm braver than you" poo-poo.

 

I agree with you.    I wouldn't want to have equal rights in sharing on birthing a child. Alien TV series in the past had the male carry the baby once it was forming in the woman. He ended up giving birth to the children, males in that species anyways.

[Bugsie]

So let's bring it back to Dragon Age.  While we're on the topic of makeovers, what are your guys' thoughts on what we've seen of Leliana and Morrigan?  From the perspective of female representation, that is.  I know lots of people have opinions on their hotness or lack thereof, but I want to talk about them more in the vein of what we've been discussing here.

Leliana - the character change from how I knew her to be in DA:O to how she appeared in DA2, felt jarring to me.  How her role will play out in DA:I as and advisor may placate the wtf? I had with it at the end of DA2.  She went from naive believer to hard arsed seeker in a smal amount of time - and it was jarring mainly because I never hardened her in any playthrough (I've not read any tie in novels so maybe its explained better there?)

 

With Morrigan, I'm really curious to know her role in the inquisition.  Her 'look' doesn't seem out of place to me, she's got to frock up and I think it fits with her character - I say that fits because she seems to carry a certain level of vanity in her air (even though she says that it was right for Flemeth to smash the mirror she stole when she snuck into the village as a child, as an adult she loves the baubles and trinkets you give her as gifts.)  Wether she still has the same acerbic wit remains to be seen, I would hate to see that disappear in an effort to make her 'likable' or approachable somehow.

 

I actually think they're pretty good female character representations (despite my reservations about Leliana)

[Lady Nuggins]

I don't consider it a good thing.  I'm replaying Fallout New Vegas and I love that some of the NCR soldiers are women with no explanation given.  There's no need to give one.  I also like that they complain about similar random and inane things as the men, like how they wished the posting had more time for leisure activity like gambling on the strip.

 

I agree--it gets tiresome that female characters seem to have to justify their presence when the same is not asked of male ones as often.  It's really nice when we get characters like Aveline, who feels no need to justify who or what she is, and the narrative never demands it of her.  

 

*snip*

 

We might be veering a little too far into a biological sex vs. gender conversation, which might be a bit heavy for this group.  But generally, yes, we should be celebrating traits associated with both.  

[Blue Gloves]

 (I've not read any tie in novels so maybe its explained better there?)

Hmm, not really, no.  Leliana does appear in both Asunder and The Masked Empire, but there's no real insight given into how she became the hand of the divine, or what caused her to "harden up."  I think we're bound to get more character exposition (is that the correct use of the word?) in the upcoming game though.  I think this is the appropriate space to say though, that I loved the

"You will break!" 

"I will die first!"

part of the trailer.  I didn't particularly care for Leliana in DAO- didn't hate her, but didn't really care for her either; but that one scene made me go "Hells Yeah!!!"

[Bugsie]

I found Leliana useful, until I leveled up Zevran's lockpicking skills.  I didn't mind her, but not a favourite, I can't say that I felt as excited about her presence in DA:I as you were Blue Gloves!

 

I'm actually more interested in how the NPC roles in general will play out - Leliana is described as a 'spy' how will that work?  The scribe - what's her role?  Morrrigan - how is she involved with the inquisition?  I'm also interested how a man with mind of a child can help the inquisitor (again didn't read the book Cole appeared in so, yeah)  but that last one is for another thread!

[Allan Schumacher]

There's no need to give one to background characters whose combat ability never really enters the narrative and who exist in a somewhat goofy setting, yes.

 

There's no need to give one to any character.  Further, I wouldn't describe Fallout New Vegas as a "goofy setting" in any capacity.  Even with the retrofuture legacy spawning from the original games.

[Blue Gloves]

We might be veering a little too far into a biological sex vs. gender conversation, which might be a bit heavy for this group.  But generally, yes, we should be celebrating traits associated with both.  

LOL- sorry .  You can take the girl out of the classroom...  Mea Culpa- I actaully spent most of the day on campus, just got in the car- its my week to sit at the front desk of the biomed lab building, and instead of sensibly working through some relevant papers, I spent the day in the forums!  Yay slacking off in the forums!  I think the atmosphere affected me a bit