9318 réponses à ce sujet

[Trikormadenadon]

This statement is true generally speaking between two different people.  For instance, I wouldn't be surprised if you and I get different things out of our gaming experience, even with the same game.

Yes, this is also true.

[Allan Schumacher]

Yes I know it was common. I just did not think it was still common with all the voice chat and video chat etc. that is out now. I guess those women don't use mics or video links in order to maintain the illusion.

 

Even as a man I typically only use voice chat when talking with actual friends.

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

I don't know of any games with a large percentage of female developers but that's not what I was pointing out. i was pointing out the fact that despite more women getting into the industry, there is still a lack of catering to the female consumer being done. Your request has no bearing on our conversation at all.

 

Doesn't it? You made a claim and I asked you to back it up, just because one development studio has a large percentage of female developers doesn't mean that all other male dominated studios are going to start pumping out content that appeals more to women, the people developing the game has a large bearing on who that content will appeal to, content developed by women will most likely be generally more appealing to women, content developed by men will most likely be generally more appealing to men. The problem is not that men aren't developing content more appealing to women but rather there aren't enough women developing content in the video game industry that appeals to women.

[Allan Schumacher]

Give me an example of a game with a large percentage of female developers that was still aimed at males?

 

Give me an example of a game with a large percentage of female developers.

 

Scratch that, give me several.

[Trikormadenadon]

Doesn't it? You made a claim and I asked you to back it up, just because one development studio has a large percentage of female developers doesn't mean that all other male dominated studios are going to start pumping out content that appeals more to women, the people developing the game has a large bearing on who that content will appeal to, content developed by women will most likely be generally more appealing to women, content developed by men will most likely be generally more appealing to men. The problem is not that men aren't developing content more appealing to women but rather there aren't enough women developing content in the video game industry that appeals to women.

You are asking me to back up something I said with information that has nothing to do with what we were talking about. We weren't talking about studios with large percentages of female devs. We were talking about studios that you claim are male dominated. And for the most part I was agreeing with you, but it is changing. More women are getting into the industry but it still lacks sufficient gender equality. That's all I was saying.

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

Give me an example of a game with a large percentage of female developers.

 

Scratch that, give me several.

 

Isn't that the problem?

 

But that being said while I am not sure about the rest of the Dragon Age team isn't the majority of the writing staff female?

[In Exile]

At least they are willing to see and admit that. It's their money and games. If they choose to not cater to women, that's their choice. Women will just show them what they think of that with their buying practices. You can't tell someone they can't create what they choose to create. If they make games they loved as kids because they loved them as kids that's a perfectly valid perspective. Women who do not agree with this will just continue to not buy those games.

 

It's fine to fight for equality, but not fine to demand people make games they are not interested in making.

 

Their explanation is insane. We draw comic book figures that offend women because we're comic book fans? What, they don't have sisters? Wives? Girlfriends? Friends who are women? Watch movies? It's literally impossible for them not to have been exposed appearances that don't offend women.

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

You are asking me to back up something I said with information that has nothing to do with what we were talking about. We weren't talking about studios with large percentages of female devs. We were talking about studios that you claim are male dominated. And for the most part I was agreeing with you, but it is changing. More women are getting into the industry but it still lacks sufficient gender equality. That's all I was saying.

 

It is changing but we still have a long way to go.

[Allan Schumacher]

 Not sure what you mean by "lack of an inviting industry", do these companies put up a sign saying "don't bother applying if you are a woman"?

 

Not explicitly, no.  But science and technology has subconscious biases against women unfortunately.  The idea of "hire based on merit" isn't actually reality.

 

Here's a study that shows an experiment with a job application in sciences.  The applications was identical in every way, with one expection: half got the name of a woman, the other half got the name of a man.

 

The applicants were rated for competency, hireability, willingess to mentor, and starting salary.  In every single category, the woman scored less by an amount large enough to not be considered plausible due to luck.

 

The kicker: this pattern was observed in both men and women professors assessing the applicant.  The study doesn't indicate the specifics as to why this phenomenon occurs, but it does demonstrate that gender/sex isn't irrelevant.  If merit was the only thing that mattered, there'd be no observable difference.  But there was and given that it affected men and women, there seems to me to be something systemic rather than overt "I hate women" types of perspectives.  It's subtle and unconscious.

 

 

Now imagine you're a woman with the exact same qualifications as a man applying to work at a job in the tech sector.  Or maybe even slightly better.  If you're being rated more harshly because you're a woman, you're being disadvantaged by nature of your sex.

[Trikormadenadon]

Their explanation is insane. We draw comic book figures that offend women because we're comic book fans? What, they don't have sisters? Wives? Girlfriends? Friends who are women? Watch movies? It's literally impossible for them not to have been exposed appearances that don't offend women.

That's not what they're saying at all.  They're saying that they draw comic book figures because that's what they like and they don't care that it might or might not offend women. If that's how they choose to run their company, then that's their right, it's their company. You don't have to like it, and it might not be the right thing to do in many people's eyes but no one has the right to demand they change just because they don't like it.

 

EDIT: You DO have the right to not buy their products however, and if it gets bad enough they will be forced to change.

[Trikormadenadon]

It is changing but we still have a long way to go.

Very true.

[Allan Schumacher]

Isn't that the problem?

 

But that being said while I am not sure about the rest of the Dragon Age team isn't the majority of the writing staff female?

 

It is a problem.  Having said that, challenging someone like myself to take a birds eye approach to things we do in games is perfectly valid.

 

If someone is a gamer and would like to enact change, one way of doing so is to provide feedback.  There's no good reason why I must create works that are exclusively enjoyable by men (especially since it's unlikely that works that exclusively appeal to men even interest myself, since the term is ambiguous).

[Char]

 Not sure what you mean by "lack of an inviting industry", do these companies put up a sign saying "don't bother applying if you are a woman"?

 

*sigh*

 

I should hope not, but the idea of entering a male-dominated industry can be quite intimidating, especially one with such a widespread "old boys club" image. Whilst there are companies like Bioware that have pushed hard against existing norms, and in my eyes, helped to set standards, most game companies still have a majority male-oriented outlook, and staff, and that can be off-putting as a work environment and make it difficult for women to find a place for themselves if their views are at odds with the existing male staff. 

I think it takes a strong woman to enter a male-dominated industry, and a stronger one to emerge as a leader in it.

[Trikormadenadon]

It is a problem.  Having said that, challenging someone like myself to take a birds eye approach to things we do in games is perfectly valid.

 

If someone is a gamer and would like to enact change, one way of doing so is to provide feedback.  There's no good reason why I must create works that are exclusively enjoyable by men (especially since it's unlikely that works that exclusively appeal to men even interest myself, since the term is ambiguous).

There is no good reason why you MUST create works that are exclusively enjoyable by men, but if that is what you CHOOSE to create, I don't think anyone has the right to demand you do otherwise. They just don't buy your product. And there is nothing wrong with them stating why they chose not to buy your product as long as it is presented constructively rather than as an accusation.

[Inquisitor Mary Sue]

If someone is a gamer and would like to enact change, one way of doing so is to provide feedback.  There's no good reason why I must create works that are exclusively enjoyable by men

 

And I never claimed otherwise, however would it be unfair to say that anything that you create would largely be influenced by your own tastes?

[kukumburr]

That's not what they're saying at all.  They're saying that they draw comic book figures because that's what they like and they don't care that it might or might not offend women. If that's how they choose to run their company, then that's their right, it's their company. You don't have to like it, and it might not be the right thing to do in many people's eyes but no one has the right to demand they change just because they don't like it.

 

Who is making demands here exactly? Maybe I missed something but most people here seem to be asking for better female representation. I don't think anyone is threatening to pull out the pitchforks and protest outside a game studio.

 

I agree game creators should be able to make whatever they want to make but that doesn't make them above criticism. And since most games are looking to make a profit it's in their best interest to appeal to as many people as possible and also try to maintain a good reputation.

[Char]

It is a problem.  Having said that, challenging someone like myself to take a birds eye approach to things we do in games is perfectly valid.

 

If someone is a gamer and would like to enact change, one way of doing so is to provide feedback.  There's no good reason why I must create works that are exclusively enjoyable by men (especially since it's unlikely that works that exclusively appeal to men even interest myself, since the term is ambiguous).

 

I just want to take this minute to thank you for your continued contribution to this thread, it's really refreshing to have our concerns recognised and understood by someone within the gaming industry, and it is very much appreciated.

[Mes]

Has to start somewhere, don't bawk at small victories.

 

Wasn't... bawking... 

 

I think you are the first woman on this forum I have ever seen say they were not attracted to Thane. I have seen many, many say they are. So my guess, it's just you, not women in general.

 

We must be reading completely different posts on this forum, then, because I've come across others with my opinion. And I've never made a blanket statement about women, so... alrighty then...

[Mes]

 

Personally I think it is a bit selfish telling an artist that they are being a misogynist for creating content that appeals to their tastes rather than your own.

 

Which artist did I call a misogynist???  Wow this thread has gone into odd territory.

[Trikormadenadon]

Who is making demands here exactly? Maybe I missed something but most people here seem to be asking for better female representation. I don't think anyone is threatening to pull out the pitchforks and protest outside a game studio.

 

I agree game creators should be able to make whatever they want to make but that doesn't make them above criticism. And since most games are looking to make a profit it's in their best interest to appeal to as many people as possible and also try to maintain a good reputation.

I never said anyone was making demands. I was using that word to illustrate my point. I am simply saying that if they choose to run their company that way, let them. There is no need to blast them publicly (which is exactly what that article is doing). Vote with your buying habits. No need to diminish anyone's creativity.

[Cutlasskiwi]

How many of those women are just using Xbox for netflix, movies or other streaming sites? Remember up until a few months ago, all apps were behind the Live paywall.

 

I say this because I've been on xbox live past years, and played though thousands of multiplayer games in Halo, Call of Duty, Battlefield, ME3, etc and rarely do I ever come across any females.

 

I know it's just from my experience, but I think I've had a big enough sample size. If women are as interested in AAA games as people say they are, I would've met a ton more than I have already. 

 

I've spent a lot of time on xbox live and I almost never use my mic anymore (only when I play with friends nowadays). If I do I will most likely be kicked out of the party/talked down to or my inbox will fill up with messages asking for pics of my boobs. It's very rare that none of the above happens so I imagine that other ladies feel the same way and just play without revealing their gender. So is it possible that you've played with ladies but you just didn't know it?

[Allan Schumacher]

And I never claimed otherwise, however would it be unfair to say that anything that you create would largely be influenced by your own tastes?

 

If your own tastes include things that exclude things that women may enjoy, then I think it's important to reevaluate your tastes.  That doesn't mean they have to change, but there may be something there that isn't a good thing.

 

These conversations help me reevaluate my own habits of typically playing men when given the choice (I stick to this less and less as time goes on), as well as examining the content we help make.  BioWare isn't perfect by any means but if I see something that seems off, I speak out about it, and it helps enact change.

 

 

There's not this huge divide between what women want out of video games and what men want.  If I am making a game that caters to my own tastes, there's nothing inherent in that that means that most (if not all) of my games can't still also appeal to many women.  Women are upset with Ubisoft's response and decision because they like playing Assassin's Creed.

 

My taste in women's armor in video games is more akin to something like this: http://media-cache-a...d93496dfb12.jpg  I am under the impression that a lot of women in this thread have little overall issue with the aesthetic, and probably even like it themselves.

 

 

Now, if my taste in female armor is something more like this meme: http://funnypictures...ty-gt-style.jpg then maybe there's some reflection I need to do.  If this is what I find suits my tastes, why is that?  Because I don't find that that particular taste is very respectful towards women.

[Trikormadenadon]

Wasn't... bawking... 

 

 

We must be reading completely different posts on this forum, then, because I've come across others with my opinion. And I've never made a blanket statement about women, so... alrighty then...

Your statement read to me as though you were upset things are not changing fast enough. It's important to focus on the fact that they ARE changing.

 

Like I said, I have never seen any woman say they disliked Thane. if yiou have, then yes, we likely are rummaging through different threads or I missed/skipped the ones who said they disliked Thane. Anyways, my point was just that it is likely just personal preference and that is why you don't understand why others do like him (which is what I was responding to in your post, the fact that you don't understand why other like him.)

[lyrabelacqua]

I've spent a lot of time on xbox live and I almost never use my mic anymore (only when I play with friends nowadays). If I do I will most likely be kicked out of the party/talked down to or my inbox will fill up with messages asking for pics of my boobs. It's very rare that none of the above happens so I imagine that other ladies feel the same way and just play without revealing their gender. So is it possible that you've played with ladies but you just didn't know it?

Same.  I've been on xbox live plenty over the years but have never used a mic, primarily because I haven't always had the best reaction from male players once they've found out I'm a woman.  So yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of anonymous players out there are actually women and girls.

 

Also wanted to quickly add my voice to Char's in thanking Allan -- your contributions in this thread are very much appreciated 

[DragonRacer]

Not sure what the ID's have to do with anything from his statement.

 

It never even ocurred to me that anyone would pretend to be otherwise with all the voice chat nowadays, male or female.

 

I'm not sure anyone's pretending so much as just choosing a username they like and either choosing to use a mic or not. I'd assume "DragonRacer" doesn't scream "I'm a chick" to most folks, but I didn't choose that name to try and hide my gender identity. I chose it because I like dragons, I used to race dirt cars (and my husband still races), and it just sounded like a cool name. *shrugs*

 

 

How many of those women are just using Xbox for netflix, movies or other streaming sites? Remember up until a few months ago, all apps were behind the Live paywall.

 

I say this because I've been on xbox live past years, and played though thousands of multiplayer games in Halo, Call of Duty, Battlefield, ME3, etc and rarely do I ever come across any females.

 

I know it's just from my experience, but I think I've had a big enough sample size. If women are as interested in AAA games as people say they are, I would've met a ton more than I have already. 

 

To follow up on this discussion regarding personal examples (which are too small to form a true consensus of the overall gaming population, mind you), bear in mind that not every woman is going to pick a username that screams "I'm female". Look at mine, for example. Would you assume I was a male or a female, if you ran across me in-game and I said nothing? I would guess assume male because "DragonRacer" certainly doesn't fit a feminine stereotype, right?

 

There are also a LOT of female gamers I have met on here that do NOT use their mics for fear of harassment. I do generally mic up in co-op games (like ME3 MP), but usually don't bother to do so in PvP games (like Titanfall). I'm not really sure why I do for one and not the other, to be honest. Maybe a different focus? I don't mind mic'ing up in a coop to help strategize or offer advice to new players/crack jokes with a room of chill folks, whereas I probably avoid it in PvP because the goal is killing each other, not to be friends necessarily. And there have been times when I've been on mic and had people question if I was a woman or a prepubescent boy, because I guess they just found a female on mic on a video game so shocking that their next assumption after "dude" was "young dude".

 

Also, personal experience can be totally turned around. Whereas you say you've not run across many women on XBox (although how you identify someone as male or female if they don't tell you/talk on the mic is perplexing), I have run across what I felt was a surprising number of women on ME3MP across XBox 360, PC, and PS3 (and yes, I actually play the game on all three platforms, although my native "homebase" is PS3). I was surprised by the number of women playing that game online because I, too, have been running on the assumption that everyone I play with is male by default until proven otherwise. And yet, there I was blabbering on mic, showing myself as female, and suddenly other mics would come on in the lobby... female gamers who either usually don't chat or were afraid to, now mic'ing up to talk with a fellow female.

 

It opened my eyes to just how many of us there actually are. It was a literal epiphany moment for me:

 

 

My direct experience counters your own. I daresay all of ours would be different or feel slanted one way or the other. Too small a sample size.