9318 réponses à ce sujet

[Trikormadenadon]

Also wanted to quickly add my voice to Char's in thanking Allan -- your contributions here are very much appreciated 

Yes it is refreshing to see a BioWare employee taking an active interest in the forums.

[Mes]

Your statement read to me as though you were upset things are not changing fast enough. It's important to focus on the fact that they ARE changing.

 

Like I said, I have never seen any woman say they disliked Thane. if yiou have, then yes, we likely are rummaging through different threads or I missed/skipped the ones who said they disliked Thane. Anyways, my point was just that it is likely just personal preference and that is why you don't understand why others do like him (which is what I was responding to in your post, the fact that you don't understand why other like him.)

 

Yeah me not understanding it was meant to be a lighthearted statement (hence the tongue smiley face I think I put at the end of the sentence). I know emotions are hard to read from text, but I think you read a little too much into that particular post. 

 

I wasn't "upset" in that other post either, dude. I was just stating what I feel regarding that particular situation. 

 

Please don't put words and/or emotions into my mouth.

[kukumburr]

I never said anyone was making demands. I was using that word to illustrate my point. I am simply saying that if they choose to run their company that way, let them. There is no need to blast them publicly (which is exactly what that article is doing). Vote with your buying habits. No need to diminish anyone's creativity.

 

Well it might just be a difference of opinion about criticism then. I consider criticism to be one of the best ways to grow as far as creative endeavors are concerned. Sometimes people just don't realize that they're being offensive or doing something wrong, and unless someone specifically points it out they may never learn. You say vote with buying habits, but how do game developers know that a game sold better because it had a strong protagonist? What if it was a particular game mechanic, or graphics? Unless people point out what they like or dislike it just becomes a guessing game for them. Some people can be overly rude when giving their criticism but that's no reason to dismiss it entirely. And I'm not saying they HAVE to even respond or change anything, but at least as a buyer I'll know that they're aware of the problem and are choosing to ignore it.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I've spent a lot of time on xbox live and I almost never use my mic anymore (only when I play with friends nowadays). If I do I will most likely be kicked out of the party/talked down to or my inbox will fill up with messages asking for pics of my boobs. It's very rare that none of the above happens so I imagine that other ladies feel the same way and just play without revealing their gender. So is it possible that you've played with ladies but you just didn't know it?

This is the main reason i have a gender neutral PS3 ID & never use mic playing games, the sexual abuse ive received by guys when they figured out my gender was sickening. The fact that some guys think sending a pic of their d**k & asking to see boob's or online sex is perfectly appropriate when talking to female gamers is just sad

[Pasquale1234]

Yeah me not understanding it was meant to be a lighthearted statement (hence the tongue smiley face I think I put at the end of the sentence). I know emotions are hard to read from text, but I think you read a little too much into that particular post. 
 
I wasn't "upset" in that other post either, dude. I was just stating what I feel regarding that particular situation. 
 
Please don't put words and/or emotions into my mouth.

I was accused of being hostile and assuming snark a few pages back. Somehow, I don't think either of us would have been misinterpreted like that if we were men.

It sort of harkens to the study Alan posted about different people's reactions to the exact same resume, depending on whether they believed the candidate was a male or a female.

It reminds me of a similar study involving the announcement of the hire of a new CEO. The announcement described the new CEO's background, career achievements, and what they will bring to the new role. People who were told the new CEO is male responded very positively, and those who were told the CEO is female thought she sounded like a ****** (female dog).

[robertthebard]

Well it might just be a difference of opinion about criticism then. I consider criticism to be one of the best ways to grow as far as creative endeavors are concerned. Sometimes people just don't realize that they're being offensive or doing something wrong, and unless someone specifically points it out they may never learn. You say vote with buying habits, but how do game developers know that a game sold better because it had a strong protagonist? What if it was a particular game mechanic, or graphics? Unless people point out what they like or dislike it just becomes a guessing game for them. Some people can be overly rude when giving their criticism but that's no reason to dismiss it entirely. And I'm not saying they HAVE to even respond or change anything, but at least as a buyer I'll know that they're aware of the problem and are choosing to ignore it.

Actually, presentation is everything. If I start every criticism with "dudebro game X..." how seriously is somebody going to take the criticism? I'm sure I'm on a few ignore lists for calling that out, in this very thread. Inflammatory comments do not serve to forward a position, they undermine it. I'm sure game developers look at why a specific demographic didn't buy their games, just like they look at why others did. I have been in plenty of guilds in MMOs with female players that didn't think I was rude or obnoxious to them because they were female gamers. I'm sure some of them did think I was rude and obnoxious, but that's because, in reality, I am rude and obnoxious, and I don't care who knows. I don't treat them any differently based on their being female, and none of them have had any PMs from me asking for boob pictures either. I used to bounce in a strip club, I've seen every kind of boob there is from "are you sure you're a girl" to "OMG, are those real?". So it's not an issue for me.

However, if I'm trying to appeal to somebody for something I want, I don't open the dialog with "Hey, you know you're a douche bag for not having (insert whatever here)". It's not a very good foundation for change, and paints me as being the lowest common denominator of (insert whatever here), which isn't something that most people care about appealing to in the first place. So yes, how one presents their criticism matters. I'd go so far as to suggest that if the criticism is presented in an extremely negative vein, it will not only be ignored, but will be deleted from the venue, and the person would be asked not to come back, enforced with ban, in the case of online communities. Inappropriate behavior is inappropriate, no matter what the subject matter is.

[Trikormadenadon]

Yeah me not understanding it was meant to be a lighthearted statement (hence the tongue smiley face I think I put at the end of the sentence). I know emotions are hard to read from text, but I think you read a little too much into that particular post. 

 

I wasn't "upset" in that other post either, dude. I was just stating what I feel regarding that particular situation. 

 

Please don't put words and/or emotions into my mouth.

I was not putting words or emotions into your posts. I was responding to how your posts impacted me. So I guess you could say I was responding to the emotions your post produced within me. I am glad to hear you were not upset. Like I said, it just came across to me that way in the first case, and the second case I didn't think you were upset, I was just responding to your bewilderment.

[lyrabelacqua]

I was accused of being hostile and assuming snark a few pages back. Somehow, I don't think either of us would have been misinterpreted like that if we were men.

It sort of harkens to the study Alan posted about different people's reactions to the exact same resume, depending on whether they believed the candidate was a male or a female.

It reminds me of a similar study involving the announcement of the hire of a new CEO. The announcement described the new CEO's background, career achievements, and what they will bring to the new role. People who were told the new CEO is male responded very positively, and those who were told the CEO is female thought she sounded like a ****** (female dog).

Yep.  I find it very interesting how there are a number of specific posters who keep coming into this thread to tell us over and over again how we should be feeling about stuff 

[Trikormadenadon]

Well it might just be a difference of opinion about criticism then. I consider criticism to be one of the best ways to grow as far as creative endeavors are concerned. Sometimes people just don't realize that they're being offensive or doing something wrong, and unless someone specifically points it out they may never learn. You say vote with buying habits, but how do game developers know that a game sold better because it had a strong protagonist? What if it was a particular game mechanic, or graphics? Unless people point out what they like or dislike it just becomes a guessing game for them. Some people can be overly rude when giving their criticism but that's no reason to dismiss it entirely. And I'm not saying they HAVE to even respond or change anything, but at least as a buyer I'll know that they're aware of the problem and are choosing to ignore it.

Constructive criticism is yes.

 

You are right. As long as I said above, it is constructive criticism. I don't feel trying to make people feel bad about their actions is particularly constructive however.

 

For example, saying "I did not buy your game because it did not have enough content for women" is much more constructive than saying "It's wrong for you to make games that don't have content targetting women ." Putting people on the defensive is only going to make them dig their heels in further.

[Pasquale1234]

Constructive criticism is yes.
 
You are right. As long as I said above, it is constructive criticism. I don't feel trying to make people feel bad about their actions is particularly constructive however.
 
For example, saying "I did not buy your game because it did not have enough content for women" is much more constructive than saying "It's wrong for you to make games that don't have content targetting women ." Putting people on the defensive is only going to make them dig their heels in further.

Whatever would we do without you to instruct us?

[Mes]

I was accused of being hostile and assuming snark a few pages back. Somehow, I don't think either of us would have been misinterpreted like that if we were men.

It sort of harkens to the study Alan posted about different people's reactions to the exact same resume, depending on whether they believed the candidate was a male or a female.

It reminds me of a similar study involving the announcement of the hire of a new CEO. The announcement described the new CEO's background, career achievements, and what they will bring to the new role. People who were told the new CEO is male responded very positively, and those who were told the CEO is female thought she sounded like a ****** (female dog).

 

Well I guess I'm glad I'm not the only one noticing this!

 

I've heard of examples like your CEO one as well. Very sad.

[Trikormadenadon]

I was accused of being hostile and assuming snark a few pages back. Somehow, I don't think either of us would have been misinterpreted like that if we were men.

It sort of harkens to the study Alan posted about different people's reactions to the exact same resume, depending on whether they believed the candidate was a male or a female.

It reminds me of a similar study involving the announcement of the hire of a new CEO. The announcement described the new CEO's background, career achievements, and what they will bring to the new role. People who were told the new CEO is male responded very positively, and those who were told the CEO is female thought she sounded like a ****** (female dog).

Well considering I am the one who responded to both the instances you are referring to I can absolutely tell you i would respond the same if I knew you were men. Believe me or not, it's up to you. But I come to this thread because I am genuinely interested in the topic, and fully believe in equal representation of both sexes in games. But I will speak up if I disagree with something and sometimes people respond with snark simply because I disagree, which it certainly seemed to me that you did. I could just as easily make the statement the only reason you responded with snark is because I'm a guy. That kind of bickering belittles both of us. It wasn't done because you were a woman, it was done because of how your statement presented itself.

[Trikormadenadon]

Whatever would we do without you to instruct us?

See? This is not constructive. Never have I been sarcastic or rude or belittling in my statements yet people feel the need to be as such towards me.

[Mes]

See? This is not constructive. Never have I been sarcastic or rude or belittling in my statements yet people feel the need to be as such towards me.

 

Well I haven't read your posts to other people but you've called me "upset" "bewildered" and in general have had this odd air of entitlement on instructing me how to react and behave in this thread.

 

And now we're calling you out on it and you are immediatelly crying "rude"  and "belittling."

 

What precisely do you want from us?

[kukumburr]

Constructive criticism is yes.

 

You are right. As long as I said above, it is constructive criticism. I don't feel trying to make people feel bad about their actions is particularly constructive however.

 

For example, saying "I did not buy your game because it did not have enough content for women" is much more constructive than saying "It's wrong for you to make games that don't have content targetting women ." Putting people on the defensive is only going to make them dig their heels in further.

 

I agree people should always use constructive criticism and on an individual basis I would agree that if the person is especially inflammatory they should be ignored. But there are a lot of people asking for better female representation, even in this thread alone. And one person being inflammatory shouldn't discredit everyone who is being polite. So while yes there are articles that can be overly snarky or rude, there are many more that are extremely well thought out and constructive and it's not fair to dismiss them just because a few people may have taken things too far.

 

Although in your example I don't personally think the second line is particularly offensive.

[Allan Schumacher]

Actually, presentation is everything.

 

No, it's not.  If it was, we'd never have acknowledged much of the disappointment and frustration with ME3's endings, or with DA2.

 

Being angry or upset doesn't invalidate critique, and its an exploitation of privilege in many cases to decide to opt out of it.  Within context of this topic, it's easy to opt out of the feminism discussion in games because so many games aren't really taking part.  It's not easy, however, to opt out of negative views of women in games because it's so rampant, it means isolating yourself from games that you'd otherwise enjoy and leaving a significantly smaller gamer library available.

 

People can be perfectly calm and have absurd feedback that I think is irrelevant.  People can be upset and have extremely valid feedback.

 

 

If you're ignoring people based purely on their tone, you're ostensibly denying yourself room for growth and perspective.  If you're that catered to group, it's privilege because you're saying "I'm the power broker, so you better talk to me the way that I feel comfortable because otherwise I'm just not going to listen."

 

Naturally I prefer it when people are more collaborative than adversarial.  But sometimes that isn't the case.  Sometimes people are more upset about something than I can appreciate and it's not necessarily my place to say that they shouldn't be upset about it.  But my preference is selfish.  It's because I know if someone is being aggressive my defense barriers come up.  But I'm getting better (I think) at not letting that motivate me to simply dismiss since it may be a disservice not just to the person, but to myself, BioWare, and the game we're making.

 

 

 

 

If I start every criticism with "dudebro game X..." how seriously is somebody going to take the criticism?

 

As far as angsty commentary go, it's hardly the worst I've seen (I've once been told I should have been aborted as a fetus to ensure competent QA worked on Dragon Age.  That's being rude to the point where I'm not interested in talking much).  Someone using the term dudebro, especially when they're replying to a post that made them angry, isn't worthy of dismissal in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

I'm sure I'm on a few ignore lists for calling that out, in this very thread.

 

For the record I had removed your post since I considered it unnecessarily focusing on someone's tone, while frankly being a bit of an ass about it.  http://geekfeminism....i/Tone_argument

 

You opted to not only fail to recognize why the poster might be upset (as that's the way I read it), you then decided to nitpick the style of presentation rather than the points made within.

 

 

 

 

However, if I'm trying to appeal to somebody for something I want, I don't open the dialog with "Hey, you know you're a douche bag for not having (insert whatever here)"

 

Did this happen?

 

 

Here's the reality though, I don't find the term "dudebro" offensive in large part because I know when someone says that, they aren't referring to me.  You spend the rest of your post talking about how you're not a bad guy and you aren't like those that were brought up (this is a derailment by the way, you're shifting the discussion away from the thread's topic and making yourself the focus).

 

 

 

 

So yes, how one presents their criticism matters. I'd go so far as to suggest that if the criticism is presented in an extremely negative vein, it will not only be ignored, but will be deleted from the venue, and the person would be asked not to come back, enforced with ban, in the case of online communities. Inappropriate behavior is inappropriate, no matter what the subject matter is.

 

I find your post to be in an extremely negative vein.  I removed the other one (mostly because I know it'd just cause more trouble, even if you are not aware that it will), but not this one since I've opted to reply to it and still actually took the time to read it despite that.

[Pasquale1234]

See? This is not constructive. Never have I been sarcastic or rude or belittling in my statements yet people feel the need to be as such towards me.

I disagree with your contention that you've not belittled anyone here.

You continually accuse us of less than stellar behavior, tell us how to act, how to choose video games, and how we should feel. If that isn't putting yourself on a pedestal and talking down to us, I don't know what is.

[Allan Schumacher]

See? This is not constructive. Never have I been sarcastic or rude or belittling in my statements yet people feel the need to be as such towards me.

 

NO, you're telling people that they should only argue in a manner that you feel comfortable with, because you're the one they need to convince.  You actually don't realize that your comments are belittling to other people, which is part of the problem.  You're saying "I don't care what your point is... just as long as you say it nicely to me."  When I am not going to begrudge someone for responding in a more aggressive way to me if it turns out that I actually am pissing them off.  If people are responding angrily to you, you may actually be somewhat responsible for that.

 

 

Thread clean up now.  More off topic nonsense about tone is going to get deleted.  It's not relevant.

[Mes]

Right so as per Allan's request, let's bring it back to the lady Inquisitor!

 

Here's something I'm curious about. For women who will roll a lady Inquisitor, will you try to make her look as similar to you as possible, or the complete opposite? I think oddly when I was younger I was more keen on making my characters as different as can be... pink hair, tattoos, the works (I'm referring to DAO's Warden... that was a while back, now!). But now I'm more interesting in creating a character who resembles me more. I wonder if it's an age thing. Not sure!

 

And for the guys... When you play the opposite gender, do you try to make her look as attractive as you can, or like a female version of yourself, etc etc?

[Char]

Right so as per Allan's request, let's bring it back to the lady Inquisitor!
 
Here's something I'm curious about. For women who will roll a lady Inquisitor, will you try to make her look as similar to you as possible, or the complete opposite? I think oddly when I was younger I was more keen on making my characters as different as can be... pink hair, tattoos, the works (I'm referring to DAO's Warden... that was a while back, now!). But now I'm more interesting in creating a character who resembles me more. I wonder if it's an age thing. Not sure!
 
And for the guys... When you play the opposite gender, do you try to make her look as attractive as you can, or like a female version of yourself, etc etc?

I often try and make mine a more idealised version of myself, I wouldn't inflict my actual features on anyone (it's possible this tells you a lot about my self-image). I suppose I see my PCs as a stronger, more heroic version of me
Other times, I'll have an image in my mind, and try to create a striking PC that matches that image, particularly in a playthrough where the choices the PC makes aren't necessarily the ones I personally would endorse.

[HuldraDancer]

Right so as per Allan's request, let's bring it back to the lady Inquisitor!

 

Here's something I'm curious about. For women who will roll a lady Inquisitor, will you try to make her look as similar to you as possible, or the complete opposite? I think oddly when I was younger I was more keen on making my characters as different as can be... pink hair, tattoos, the works (I'm referring to DAO's Warden... that was a while back, now!). But now I'm more interesting in creating a character who resembles me more. I wonder if it's an age thing. Not sure!

 

And for the guys... When you play the opposite gender, do you try to make her look as attractive as you can, or like a female version of yourself, etc etc?

Some of them for sure well hair and eye wises at least I don't think I could look at something that looks like me the entire game xD Though I've only made dwarf PCs look anything like me^^; Though almost all my lady wardens looked the same usually either red hair or darker skin or a combination of both gonna have to work on making sure that doesn't happen with my Inquisitors or making all the guys look the same again >>

[Trikormadenadon]

Right so as per Allan's request, let's bring it back to the lady Inquisitor!

 

Here's something I'm curious about. For women who will roll a lady Inquisitor, will you try to make her look as similar to you as possible, or the complete opposite? I think oddly when I was younger I was more keen on making my characters as different as can be... pink hair, tattoos, the works (I'm referring to DAO's Warden... that was a while back, now!). But now I'm more interesting in creating a character who resembles me more. I wonder if it's an age thing. Not sure!

 

And for the guys... When you play the opposite gender, do you try to make her look as attractive as you can, or like a female version of yourself, etc etc?

Well as most of you no doubt figured out I am male I will respond to the end part of that post.

 

For my first play through as a female I try to make her as attractive as possible to me as a person. Following games I mix it up a bit, use random generators if they are available etc. I try to change up the hair style and colour and use different make-up or tattoos maybe. Just change things up.

[HuldraDancer]

I often try and make mine a more idealised version of myself, I wouldn't inflict my actual features on anyone (it's possible this tells you a lot about my self-image). I suppose I see my PCs as a stronger, more heroic version of me

 

Pretty much the same thing I do right there, not a big fan of my own features but I will make PCs look like how I would like to look. That is when I do make them look like me I try to make them look like me version 2.0 or something ^^;

[Pasquale1234]

Right so as per Allan's request, let's bring it back to the lady Inquisitor!
 
Here's something I'm curious about. For women who will roll a lady Inquisitor, will you try to make her look as similar to you as possible, or the complete opposite? I think oddly when I was younger I was more keen on making my characters as different as can be... pink hair, tattoos, the works (I'm referring to DAO's Warden... that was a while back, now!). But now I'm more interesting in creating a character who resembles me more. I wonder if it's an age thing. Not sure!

I don't have horns or pointy ears, so... 

 

On another note - images of Morrigan and Leliana were posted quite a few pages back.  I think both characters look awesome in the new engine, but I'm a bit surprised about the eye color.  The new Leliana's eyes look brown to me, in the images I've seen, and they were blue in the previous games.

 

And Morrigan's eyes?  Such a unique color - sort of greenish gray IIRC.  I hope that shows up well in the new renders, because I always found them really interesting.

 

[Wulfram]

And for the guys... When you play the opposite gender, do you try to make her look as attractive as you can, or like a female version of yourself, etc etc?

 

Definitely not a female version of me.  Actually, the clear distinction from myself is I think one of the reasons I like playing a female character.

 

Initially I think I mostly tried to make my characters attractive.  But after a few characters that gets a bit boring, so I put a bit more focus on getting someone characterful and interesting looking, or at least different from my previous characters I've played recently, while still being attractive.  I like to pick at least a feature or two and move it a fair way away from what I'd do for my default "attractive" character, and then try to make that work.