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[karushna5]

I'm pretty sure this came up earlier but I don't remember the details and big thread is big...

 

How do we reconcile competing desires for how a character is represented in game, particularly physically.  Some are happy that the woman Qunari is not really sexualized (I think that's pretty sweet too).  Perhaps it's my ignorance speaking, but part of me think there's a fine line between making something attractive, and making them unreasonably sexualized.  Especially if we're working within the confines of fixed body types (lets stick within this constraint please, since it's the current reality for Dragon Age haha).

 

That said, I know there are some that are still hoping the characters are distinctly feminine and that some of these people are still women gamers

 

Sexy is finding someone attractive. We all feel it. it is fine human nature. Sexualized(both men and women do it but it is not a problem for men the way it is for women) is when they are there to be ogled and being treated as a thing rather then a person. Jacob and Miranda were sexualized, while tali was not. in the simplest terms, sexy is taking the person and still treating them and thinking of them as a person who needs to be treated that way. Sexualized, is putting your own desires over someones personhood.

 

In art, a sexy character to have context to her anatomy(believe it or not comics have already failed, most mainstream comics have to throw out female, or even human anatomy to function for normal women to be drawn), Laws of Physics(I am looking at you Jack's "Bra") Climate (Morrigan, and also any frozen chainmail bakini) Function(this is where i differ with most  feminine women if it will not function as armor, it is not armor, but then that is what other genres and Mages are for No?) If you pass all of these it is usually in the sexy department.

 

Of course the final one is presentation. Isabela's cleavage being the focus of many of her cutscenes and her bodice only barely passing function, and how every character treated her made her sexualized. If being around the sexy character was not "Sex, sex(curse word for loose women) STD" I would squarly put her in the sexy rather than sexualized department, but she is definitely sexualized because of those things.

Flemeth would be "sexy" if we dont already know she looks nothing like that, and was given those looks as compared to a traditional witchy figure simply to look sexy, and also the insistence that even an old woman must be sexy. That makes her sexualized. Of course both of these characters are much better than most Comic book characters and women in most action games.

 

Sexualized ignores one or all these things if it would make the character more desirable. Of course, it is very very important for women to have an occaisonal unattractive character who is not mocked for her looks. Aveline came close but then... Not saying these characters can not be seen as attractive, but they need to have that be a very minor concern in the grand scheme of their making. Women are always told to be pretty first. it is the greatest virtue, through literature, religion, media, and instilled even in babies. "What a beautiful girl, what a strong boy" It is very important women are told that the most important thing about them is not their looks.

[Grieving Natashina]

I usually don't hear "what a strong boy," but I do hear "What a handsome boy," quite a bit.  I think that looks are stressed for both genders from the word go.  Girls are usually groomed to be more concerned about looks, emotions, and about being feminine.  Boys are discouraged from any sort of attributes that might be feminine, including emotions.   That's a large problem to me.

 

With all this talk of sexualization, I feel I would be remiss if I didn't talk about the idealization of male characters.  Sure, it's easy to see how that could be a good and empowering thing, but there is some concerns I have about it.

 

1) It reinforces this idea that there is really only one kind of mainly man that a guy should be.  We do get all sorts of men in media, but most of them tend to be built like Krados, Cole Train or other such characters when it comes to video games.  

 

Barrel chested "manly men" with narrow waists and cannons for arms and legs is all well and good, but it does lend pressure to men to be this way.  Sadly, this sort of pressure is starting to take it's toll on young men; the rates for eating disorders among men (especially bulimia) are on the rise.

 

2) It can go to ridiculous levels sometimes.  In my opinion, Sheploo is a prime example of this.  

 

His build was pretty good in causal armor, but I started laughing when I put him in the Kestrel Armor set.  He looks like a bad stereotype of an American football linebacker.  His running animation was like a gorilla and I had to go, "Okay, this is way over the top.  Men generally don't stomp everywhere they go.  Especially as an infiltrator."

 

3) It's boring, boring boring.  Guys don't look all the same anymore than women do.  It's nice to look fit, but the overbuild muscle man look seems to be far too overused.  I'm not opposed to it in general, since it does suit some characters quite well (Vega, Iron Bull, Blackwall and Sten all come to mind,) but I don't like it on all of the male PCs.  I'm glad there is a multiple of builds for male companions this time around in DA:I, though they've always been pretty decent about that.

 

4) For several games, (outside of BioWare) too many male PCs tend to perpetuate the "dumb guy that shoots first, has trouble handling his feelings like an adult and has a huge stubborn streak" stereotype, which is another huge problem.  Yet, this is somehow presented as a good thing by a lot of mass media.

 

 

Okay, getting more back to the topic at hand: I guess I personally never considered Isabela sexualized, even in DA2, because I felt I could take her seriously.  Most overly sexualized characters tend to have the personality of bimbos, much like overly idealized male characters have the emotional level of rocks.  Isabela had a really deep and good story, and one that is still pretty complicated.  I can totally understand why others might feel differently.   

 

I also didn't feel that Jacob was sexualized with his look, but I did feel really uncomfortable talking to him on my FemShep.  The breathy tone in her voice was extremely off-putting, and far too flirtatious for my liking.   It was really bad my first play session, considering that my first Shep romanced Liara in the series and wasn't all that attracted to humans to begin with.  I found myself literally squirming a little in my seat every time I talked to him.  

[Andraste_Reborn]

I also didn't feel that Jacob was sexualized with his look, but I did feel really uncomfortable talking to him on my FemShep.  The breathy tone in her voice was extremely off-putting, and far too flirtatious for my liking.   It was really bad my first play session, considering that my first Shep romanced Liara in the series and wasn't all that attracted to humans to begin with.  I found myself literally squirming a little in my seat every time I talked to him.

 

After a few conversations, I stopped talking to him altogether. I was romancing Garrus, and was very uncomfortable with the way my Shep seemed to be hitting on Jacob anyway.

 

Thank goodness for the DA2 tone icons and the heart, which I hope will be making a return. Hopefully Inquisitors will not flirt with people without the player making that choice.

[Grieving Natashina]

After a few conversations, I stopped talking to him altogether. I was romancing Garrus, and was very uncomfortable with the way my Shep seemed to be hitting on Jacob anyway.

 

Thank goodness for the DA2 tone icons and the heart, which I hope will be making a return. Hopefully Inquisitors will not flirt with people without the player making that choice.

Yeah, no flirting in the auto-dialogue please.  I heard that male Shep's had the same sort of thing happen to them with Jack.  

[HuldraDancer]

Yeah, no flirting in the auto-dialogue please.  I heard that male Shep's had the same sort of thing happen to them with Jack.  

 

Never got that vibe from male shep talking to Jack during my run of it to be honest though after that cringe worthy fest of attempting to do a Jacob romance in my last playthrough left me oblivious to it. If Male Shepard was being flirty with Jack I certainly didn't notice it. But yes please no more auto flirting last thing I want is to be playing DAI and my PC sounding like she wants to take Cullen or Scribbles right there on the table. But I doubt we'll get that in DAI

[raziel1980]

Yeah, no flirting in the auto-dialogue please.  I heard that male Shep's had the same sort of thing happen to them with Jack.  

 

I didn't notice any auto flirting either...the only person I saw any of that with was with Jacob(mind flashes back to scene where Shepard litterally looks up and down his body during one scene [he was wearing his skin tight outfit at the time] but she stops at his 'package' and the scene pauses there for about 5 seconds [felt like a lifetime to me( and I'm male, a black one at that)) and for maleshep...Miranda but I probadly wouldn't call it auto-flirting as my maleshep was going after her anyway. :D

[Quyk Sylvyr]

After a few conversations, I stopped talking to him altogether. I was romancing Garrus, and was very uncomfortable with the way my Shep seemed to be hitting on Jacob anyway.

 

Thank goodness for the DA2 tone icons and the heart, which I hope will be making a return. Hopefully Inquisitors will not flirt with people without the player making that choice.

 

One thing that I've noticed about ME2 after several replays.  I actually think what most people consider a paragon response in one of the first conversations with Jacob was actually a "flirt" and opened romance dialogue. I noticed one time when I was doing a renegade playthrough and stuck with only the bottom two options - the dialogue actually seemed very different, and I don't think I ever got the over-the-top flirting I saw the first couple times. (I didn't want to be a mean renegade so I chose a lot of the middle options.)  You'll also notice if you start a male character that with the first couple dialogues with Jacob there's only 2 responses as opposed to 3 like there is for a female.  My guess is that the same may have been happening for Sheploo when talking to Jack.  I know people sometimes make fun of the icons, but I really like that DA2 clearly showed if a response was meant as a flirt.

[MissMayhem96]

Female Gamers have always been around, my brother was the one who let me play videogames with him when we were kids. SEGA Dreamcast was my first console and throughout school I was the girl with the DS handheld that hanged out with the other boys and played MarioKart.

 

I have felt out of place many times throughout school, and I always gravitated towards games with female leads. Being the big Halo fan I was, when Reach came out, the option to play as a female Spartan solider was a revelation for me. (Even though the Female Spartan didn't have an actual voice)

 

I wish that Gaming companies marketed more towards women gamers, The statistic that I've seen is that women gamers make up 45% of the gaming community and that percentage will only get bigger as the gaming ind. grows. Bioware needs to at least try to make a couple teaser/trailers with a female Inquisitor so other female gamers can see that there is an option.

 

I got into Mass Effect thinking that I could only play as MaleShep and I picked up the game because I was bored one day, I saw the male Shepard on the cover (I had the boxset so there was no interchangeable cover for Femshep) and so I started ME1. When I saw there was a female option I was so happy. So I am looking forward to Dragon Age and I've been a fan for awhile now, so I just hope there is some Fem!Inquisitor marketing.

[KaiserShep]

I imagine there would be some marketing of the female Inquisitor, similar to how ME3 had the interchangeable femShep trailer. Ideally, they'd cover the playable races angle of the game as well, but I wouldn't have any high expectations for that.

[Bob from Accounting]

Ideally, they'd cover the playable races angle of the game as well, but I wouldn't have any high expectations for that.

 

...Why?

 

Elves, dwarves and qunari are not real. They don't need to be represented.
 

[Bob from Accounting]

 

With all this talk of sexualization, I feel I would be remiss if I didn't talk about the idealization of male characters.  Sure, it's easy to see how that could be a good and empowering thing, but there is some concerns I have about it.

 

Barrel chested "manly men" with narrow waists and cannons for arms and legs is all well and good, but it does lend pressure to men to be this way.  Sadly, this sort of pressure is starting to take it's toll on young men; the rates for eating disorders among men (especially bulimia) are on the rise.

 

The existence of any kind of ideal hurts people.

 

We value courage? That inherently hurts people who aren't courageous. Who are cowardly.

 

We value strength and agillty? That inherently hurts people who are weak or crippled.

 

We value beauty? That inherently hurts people who are ugly.

 

We value intelligence? That inherently hurts people who are slow or foolish.

 

The notion that we should get rid of ideals and values because of that (which is unfortunately where pretty much all these suggestions seem to go) is abhorrant and ridiculous.

 

The very last thing we need to make the world a better place is to make the qualities of great men and great women worth less. They ought to be worth more.

[Grieving Natashina]

Shouldn't there be a balance in representation of looks and body types though, for both genders?  I'm not saying any of those traits are bad/wrong in and of themselves, but it does turn into an almost inescapable stereotype when it comes to video games.  Relying on the same stereotypes over and over again is undermining the qualities that make men and women great.  It reinforces the idea that there is only one way to be acceptable.  Only one way to be a handsome and/or strong man, or only one way to a sexy and/or strong women.   That's crap and it needs to change.

 

I said nothing about intelligence, or lack thereof in my post.  I did however, address the stereotypes that not only do a lot of guys have to be bodybuilders in video games, but also have to be nearly robotic in their emotional responses.  This is something that's improving, but still a problem.  Just as much as treating women like sexy objects is a problem.

 

Focusing too much on those stereotypes among men and women (i.e all men are body builders that are emotional robots and all women are models with little control over their emotions) devalues the greater qualities we can have as people, and causes more unhealthy stereotypes to perpetuate on itself.

 

There are men out there that fit that mold that I went over in my previous post.  And there is nothing wrong with having that option as a male PC.  However, I do think that it should not be a default for so many games out there.  It also is harmful to both men and women in our society.

 

If you want to take "I'd like less stereotypes" and jump to "I want to get rid of the value behind beauty, intelligence, courage, strength, agility, ect" then be my guest.  I never said that, nor was that what I intended.  

[aTigerslunch]

I agree with Natashina. Also, not sure why couple people have to add more negatives to someone's post when those points weren't even in the post. Happened to me in another thread. I said any can murder, but a guy put words in my mouth saying rogues and warriors cant bring undead to help, when I never mentioned undead. Sorry Natashina.

 

I myself am tired of those guys being so muscle bound imaged as well. Part of why I didn't bother with few games.

[Grieving Natashina]

 

 

I got into Mass Effect thinking that I could only play as MaleShep and I picked up the game because I was bored one day, I saw the male Shepard on the cover (I had the boxset so there was no interchangeable cover for Femshep) and so I started ME1. When I saw there was a female option I was so happy. So I am looking forward to Dragon Age and I've been a fan for awhile now, so I just hope there is some Fem!Inquisitor marketing.

I wanted to add to this.  When Mass Effect first came out, my husband and I took one look at the cover, and the advertising, and just rolled our eyes.  From everything the advertising was showing us, we honestly thought that BioWare had done a Halo/CoD knock off.  No real mention about roleplaying in the ads; no signs at all of a female PC.  

 

Before anyone says, "Well it's BioWare, of course you'd be able to play as a woman.  Didn't you say you've played most of the games?"  Well, I really wasn't sure.  I thought they had done something so completely different and that it was just a fixed PC named Shepard, with no gender choice.   That's why I'm glad that they put it up on the website for Inquisition and have given us some wonderful trailers with Fem Quizzy.

 

Plus, for the ME sequels, we saw the same type of male lead as is so common for most games, and once again, no sign that you could play as a female character.  Nor was there any signs of roleplaying elements in the advertising.  

 

It wasn't until I joined the ToR forums in January of 2012 did I even know that it was a RPG with some basic shooter mechanics, complete with romance and gender choices.  Advertising does matter.  

[Bob from Accounting]

There are some things that can absolutely be balanced. People with black hair, blonde hair, red hair can all be beautiful. People with light skin or dark skin. Blue eyes, green eyes, or brown eyes.

 

But something like fatness? No. Ultimately, that's not acceptable as a beautiful trait. If it was a binary choice between being fat and being in good shape, yes, the only acceptable option for beauty is being in good shape. And I be fairly upset if BioWare included an overweight love interest in their games.

 

And please God do not try and start an incredible tedious argument of 'Everything is subjective, you can't prove being fat is objectively ugly!'

 

So no, I want people in the fiction I enjoy to be beautiful. And yes, that means a lot of 'looks' and 'body types' aren't going to represented.

[MissMayhem96]

God, I hate the auto-flirting dialogue with James Vega and my Shep. It got pretty bad with Jacob too.

[HuldraDancer]

There are some things that can absolutely be balanced. People with black hair, blonde hair, red hair can all be beautiful. People with light skin or dark skin. Blue eyes, green eyes, or brown eyes.

 

But something like fatness? No. Ultimately, that's not acceptable as a beautiful trait. If it was a binary choice between being fat and being in good shape, yes, the only acceptable option for beauty is being in good shape. And I be fairly upset if BioWare included an overweight love interest in their games.

 

And please God do not try and start an incredible tedious argument of 'Everything is subjective, you can't prove being fat is objectively ugly!'

 

So no, I want people in the fiction I enjoy to be beautiful. And yes, that means a lot of 'looks' and 'body types' aren't going to represented.

 

You just made Eunice sad you know that? 

 

 

Guess you'd hate Rune Factory Frontier then since she is an LI in it. (I also think you may be really missing Natashina's point as well)

Edit: Fixed it to have the full name sorry about the confusion.

 

p.s. Eunice is simply lovely if I say so myself.

[Allan Schumacher]

What is RF?

[Hizoku]

What is RF?

Rune Factory, its a Harvest Moon clone with combat... they're actually pretty good games, if you have the time to spend on them.

[Kimberly]

I googled it Rune Factory?

[Maria Caliban]

Rune Factory Frontier.

[HuldraDancer]

What is RF?

 

What Hizoku said it stands for Rune Factory. Sorry I'm so used to just typing RF^^; It's basically a fantasy version of Harvest Moon with spirits, monsters and combat.

[Jorji Costava]

There are some things that can absolutely be balanced. People with black hair, blonde hair, red hair can all be beautiful. People with light skin or dark skin. Blue eyes, green eyes, or brown eyes.

 

But something like fatness? No. Ultimately, that's not acceptable as a beautiful trait. If it was a binary choice between being fat and being in good shape, yes, the only acceptable option for beauty is being in good shape. And I be fairly upset if BioWare included an overweight love interest in their games.

 

And please God do not try and start an incredible tedious argument of 'Everything is subjective, you can't prove being fat is objectively ugly!'

 

So no, I want people in the fiction I enjoy to be beautiful. And yes, that means a lot of 'looks' and 'body types' aren't going to represented.

Well, there's always the old Renaissance example, where carrying a bit of extra weight was actually considered beautiful because it was a sign of wealth; if you were a bit overweight, that was a sign that you didn't have to do hard labor and were thus well off. But more significantly, I have no idea why it needs to be the case that all characters in fiction must be beautiful. That's news to me.

[Bob from Accounting]

They don't 'have' to be anything. But beauty is a good thing. Both fiction and reality are made better by it. Better is better.

[Jorji Costava]

What we value in real life and what makes for good storytelling are two very different things. Having a good sense of humor is a nice thing to have, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to make every single character the wittiest person ever. Intelligence is good, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to have every character be a card carrying MENSA member. Being cantankerous is bad, but that doesn't mean you should make every character extremely patient and even-tempered, etc.