9318 réponses à ce sujet

[Bob from Accounting]

They're not particularly different in this case. We appreciate beauty in fiction more or less the same way we appreciate it in reality. At least for friendly characters.

[oceanicsurvivor]

The existence of any kind of ideal hurts people.

 

We value courage? That inherently hurts people who aren't courageous. Who are cowardly.

 

We value strength and agillty? That inherently hurts people who are weak or crippled.

 

We value beauty? That inherently hurts people who are ugly.

 

We value intelligence? That inherently hurts people who are slow or foolish.

 

The notion that we should get rid of ideals and values because of that (which is unfortunately where pretty much all these suggestions seem to go) is abhorrant and ridiculous.

 

The very last thing we need to make the world a better place is to make the qualities of great men and great women worth less. They ought to be worth more.

 

Courage comes in many forms, so does strength, so does beauty, and so does intelligence. The problem is we tend to gravitate towards one way of displaying this trait, which ignores many brilliant and beautiful people who get told they aren't those things just because they display those same traits 'atypically'.

 

There are some things that can absolutely be balanced. People with black hair, blonde hair, red hair can all be beautiful. People with light skin or dark skin. Blue eyes, green eyes, or brown eyes.

 

But something like fatness? No. Ultimately, that's not acceptable as a beautiful trait. If it was a binary choice between being fat and being in good shape, yes, the only acceptable option for beauty is being in good shape. And I be fairly upset if BioWare included an overweight love interest in their games.

 

And please God do not try and start an incredible tedious argument of 'Everything is subjective, you can't prove being fat is objectively ugly!'

 

So no, I want people in the fiction I enjoy to be beautiful. And yes, that means a lot of 'looks' and 'body types' aren't going to represented.

 

Oh yes, god forbid all people get treated as human beings who have wants and desires regardless of their body mass. That only applies to the 'pretty' people.

 

Everyone has fat, if fat isn't an acceptable beauty trait then have fun dating an emaciated corpse . There is a large difference between being fat/having fat and health. Being skinny isn't a signifier of health, its a signifier of a lack of fat.

 

And maybe, just maybe, some people want to see themselves represented as beautiful in the media they consume. And maybe just maybe, that should be more important than you or anyone else having yet another pin-up model to look at.
 

[Jorji Costava]

They're not particularly different in this case. We appreciate beauty in fiction more or less the same way we appreciate it in reality. At least for friendly characters.

 

Not really following you here. As far as I can tell, we appreciate humor in fiction in a relatively similar way to how we appreciate it in real life, so where was the mistake in my analogy? Having characters be less than perfectly attractive can serve a lot of functions in a narrative: It can be used to set up an underdog story, or it can be used to explain various insecurities, quirks or other traits the character might have, and it can be used to add some realism to the world (I always like to joke that if TV is to be trusted, then the best places to meet the most attractive people in the US are the police departments of NY and Los Angeles).

 

Anyways, this is drifting a bit off topic, so I'll just leave things here.

[Bob from Accounting]

They can. And they are. But an issue as relatively petty as a character being insecure over their appearance is unlikely to be particularly appropriate for a BioWare game with an epic conflict and corrospondingly 'epic' characters.

 

Sitcoms and comedies have...not particularly attractive central characters all the time. Epic stories generally do not. There's a reason for that.

[aTigerslunch]

Okie dokie......

[Allan Schumacher]

And I be fairly upset if BioWare included an overweight love interest in their games.

 

Is this an indictment against us, or yourself?  Why would you be upset because there happens to be a love interest you aren't interested in?

 

 

Epic stories generally do not.

 

So some still do?  Excellent!

[Bob from Accounting]

Against you.

 

It's the same reason I would be upset if a character was included that was overwhelmingly cowardly (and stayed so for the duration of the story.) Or whiny. Or petty.

 

That's the whole point of epic stories. You introduce great conflicts and great worlds to enunciate the brightest of human qualities. The strongest. The bravest. The most beautiful. All qualities that well describe BioWare companions.

 

An overweight character who is a love interest would be indicative that that ideal has been eroded.

 

I really wouldn't give much of a damn about the character itself. I would care immensely about the underlying thought that led to him or her and what it likely means for BioWare stories.

[Nefla]

There are some things that can absolutely be balanced. People with black hair, blonde hair, red hair can all be beautiful. People with light skin or dark skin. Blue eyes, green eyes, or brown eyes.

 

But something like fatness? No. Ultimately, that's not acceptable as a beautiful trait. If it was a binary choice between being fat and being in good shape, yes, the only acceptable option for beauty is being in good shape. And I be fairly upset if BioWare included an overweight love interest in their games.

 

And please God do not try and start an incredible tedious argument of 'Everything is subjective, you can't prove being fat is objectively ugly!'

 

So no, I want people in the fiction I enjoy to be beautiful. And yes, that means a lot of 'looks' and 'body types' aren't going to represented.

Beauty is subjective but that's not the issue. The problem is why does every female character have to be beautiful above all else? If every female character looks like a beauty pageant contestant, it really takes away a lot of uniqueness and imo makes a game (or movie or show) much less interesting. Male characters (usually supporting characters or villains though) have a huge range of looks from bug eyed super skinny scientist with crazy hair, to 7 foot tall fat guy who just wants everyone to get along, to realistically average looking to heroic, etc...women generally have very little variety in their design. Young, slim hourglass figure, typically feminine hairstyle, large breasts, revealing clothes, etc...which is fine for a few characters but for every single one? Where's the tall beefy warrior lady with a Mohawk and scars that rival the Hound's? Where's the skinny little researcher who has a twisted back from a lifetime of hunching over one project or another? Where's the middle aged shopkeeper who is a mother of 6 with the girth to show it? I want to see more variety and less objectification. Characters should be there as characters first and should enhance the setting and the story, NOT be there just for titillation.

[kukumburr]

Against you.

 

It's the same reason I would be upset if a character was included that was overwhelmingly cowardly (and stayed so for the duration of the story.) Or whiny. Or petty.

 

That's the whole point of epic stories. You introduce great conflicts and great worlds to enunciate the brightest of human qualities. The strongest. The bravest. The most beautiful. All qualities that well describe BioWare companions.

 

An overweight character who is a love interest would be indicative that that ideal has been eroded.

 

I really wouldn't give much of a damn about the character itself. I would care immensely about the underlying thought that led to him or her and what it likely means for BioWare stories.

 

A "perfect" character is extremely boring to me. I prefer characters that have some qualities that are seen as positive (like intelligent, beautiful, etc.) but also have flaws, and I think this is what BioWare does for the most part. Like Alistair who has good qualities like being humorous and loyal, but can also be seen as weak-willed or whiny. This makes them more relatable since no one in real life is ever perfect. There's no reason you can't have an overweight character who is also very brave or clever and likeable, or a cowardly character who looks like a model.

[Bob from Accounting]

First of all, this is really concerning main characters. I'm perfectly fine with a character such as an overweight shopkeeper. So I would hope you'd be a little more cautious in whipping out accusations of 'objectification!' considering I'm explicitly talking about deeper characters who, by definition, have a larger role than 'titillation.'

 

Secondly, this applies to males just as much as females. I want the central males to be good looking. Really good looking. Tall, fair amount of muscle, deep voices.

 

Thirdly, nobody said anything about beauty 'above all else.' I would be upset with an unattractive protagonist in an epic story, but a lot more upset if he was whiny or petty.

[Allan Schumacher]

Against you.

 

I disagree.

 

To me it's simply a romanceable character that has traits you don't care for.  I see no reason why a man or woman that happens to have some weight on them cannot be a love interest.  If this makes you angry, then so be it.  I don't consider it a compelling reason not to do it.

[Nefla]

First of all, this is really concerning main characters. I'm perfectly fine with a character such as an overweight shopkeeper. So I would hope you'd be a little more cautious in whipping out accusations of 'objectification!' considering I'm explicitly talking about deeper characters who, by definition, have a larger role than 'titillation.'

 

Secondly, this applies to males just as much as females. I want the central males to be good looking. Really good looking. Tall, fair amount of muscle, deep voices.

 

Thirdly, nobody said anything about beauty 'above all else.' I would be upset with an unattractive protagonist in an epic story, but a lot more upset if he was whiny or petty.

Why would you care if someone else wanted to make an unattractive PC?  Or do you just mean companions? Because if it's companions then my questions still stand. Why can we have Oghren, Sten, Loghain. Zaeed, Wrex, Grunt, Garrus, Mordin, Zalbaar, etc...but the only female companions who aren't typical/idealized are Aveline and Wynne. Even Tali who is an alien with a mask has a sexy, human looking body unlike the male alien companions Wrex/Garrus/Grunt/Mordin (though Aveline wears pretty heavy makeup and Wynne has the same body as Morrigan and Leliana). Or are you saying you want the whole party to pretty much look the same with all the women being models and all the men being action figures? No Iron Bulls, no Varrics, no Mordins or Wrex's, etc...? If you want characters to be deeper, then their looks should reflect who they are, not just slapped together because it's "ideal."

[Reznore57]

First of all, this is really concerning main characters. I'm perfectly fine with a character such as an overweight shopkeeper. So I would hope you'd be a little more cautious in whipping out accusations of 'objectification!' considering I'm explicitly talking about deeper characters who, by definition, have a larger role than 'titillation.'

 

Secondly, this applies to males just as much as females. I want the central males to be good looking. Really good looking. Tall, fair amount of muscle, deep voices.

 

Thirdly, nobody said anything about beauty 'above all else.' I would be upset with an unattractive protagonist in an epic story, but a lot more upset if he was whiny or petty.

 

It's like you're talking about my nightmare.

Everything is generic looking.

Everything is in the norm.

I mean those type of things have their place , and everything.

But this type of idealism can be really unhealthy...Look at how people worship celebrities like one worship a god, and then are vicious and eager to hear everything that actually make those people humans just to be able to break them apart.(All those gossip stuff.)

 

I'm not sure it's cool to just ignore human "flaws" or make them something terrible because well we have to live with them.

Sometimes I'm intelligent sometimes I'm not.

Sometimes I'm courageous sometimes I'm not.

Someday I look good , some other day not so much etc...

So ..I should what only like myself half of the time?

[Gregolian]

Having just watched them both this weekend... (cause who doesn't like a bunch of mass killing on the Independence Day weekend here in the States) I hope I can make a female character that would be as badass as these two put together.

[Bob from Accounting]

First of all, Garrus is incredibly attractive.

 

Secondly, I think I would say that I always want a 'core' of central characters that look something like the ideal, yes. I want the love interests to look something more or less like it. I was careful to say I didn't want an overweight love interest, not an overweight companion.

[oceanicsurvivor]

Against you.

 

It's the same reason I would be upset if a character was included that was overwhelmingly cowardly (and stayed so for the duration of the story.) Or whiny. Or petty.

 

That's the whole point of epic stories. You introduce great conflicts and great worlds to enunciate the brightest of human qualities. The strongest. The bravest. The most beautiful. All qualities that well describe BioWare companions.

 

An overweight character who is a love interest would be indicative that that ideal has been eroded.

 

I really wouldn't give much of a damn about the character itself. I would care immensely about the underlying thought that led to him or her and what it likely means for BioWare stories.

 

First of all...being fat(ter) isn't a character flaw.

 

Secondly, every single person in Bioware games do have massive character flaws and issues to deal with. Because even in an epic no one is infallible and no one should be since part of an epic is people over coming despite flaws and challenges not because they don't have any.

 

There is literally no reason we couldn't have an overweight romance option. 1) A person who fills the role of our political advisor, someone who has spent their entire life schmoozing with the wealthy but who is cunning and knows how to get things done could easily be someone not fit and ripped to out run a dragon. 2) Why on earth are all of the mages sooo fit? Is that a lyrium side effect? Asunder touched on this briefly but mages in the towers are well educated and well fed, many who were peasents when they came to the towers have a much more comfortable life then they could ever have had otherwise. They also spend the majority of their time studying and stuff. So...if we had a circle mage for a companion/LI, why wouldn't they be a bit plumper at the very least?

 

The only thing including fat people in Bioware games would 'mean' about the future of Bioware is that they are including more people/representing a greater variety of people kinda like you encounter everyday.

[Divine Justinia V]

First of all, Garrus is incredibly attractive.

 

LOL what!? That's subjective.

[Gregolian]

First of all...being fat(ter) isn't a character flaw.

 

 

 

Volstagg anyone?

 

 

I honestly would welcome a coward for a companion...  as long as their cowardice doesn't get another member killed the way Upham did in Saving Private Ryan.

[Maria Caliban]

The ingredients of an epic story:

• Courage.
• Heroism.
• Great conflict.
• Women Bob can *** to.

First of all, Garrus is incredibly attractive.

 
Women with body fat are ugly. Men with mandibles, grey skin, protruding hip bones, and three fingers are 'incredibly attractive.'

[Bob from Accounting]

First of all...being fat(ter) isn't a character flaw.

 

You know...it is.

 

It is a flaw. The wrong kind of flaw. Not the interesting kind that we can draw powerful arcs and conflicts from, but just the grey, dreary, sitting-in-traffic real life kind of flaw.

 

That's what this all comes down to. Making characters as great as they can be. The most they can be. And this kind of flaw makes less of a character.

 

Now that's not to offend anyone. It's not a huge deal. Nearly all of us have some kind of issue that makes us less than what we could be.

[KaiserShep]

I hope BioWare adds an "overweight" companion character just to spite this goofball.

[Nefla]

First of all, Garrus is incredibly attractive.

 

Secondly, I think I would say that I always want a 'core' of central characters that look something like the ideal, yes. I want the love interests to look something more or less like it. I was careful to say I didn't want an overweight love interest, not an overweight companion.

The characters I listed were core central characters, all were companions. As far as you not wanting a LI that's fat or whatever...none of them are or ever have been and no one is trying to get that changed so...what's your point? You just wanted to tell us all how much you like people who are perfect and sexy and idealized? That's nice.

[Gregolian]

I hope BioWare adds an "overweight" companion character just to spite this goofball.

Agreed.

 

 

You know...it is.

 

It is a flaw. The wrong kind of flaw. Not the interesting kind that we can draw powerful arcs and conflicts from, but just the grey, dreary, sitting-in-traffic real life kind of flaw.

 

That's what this all comes down to. Making characters as great as they can be. The most they can be. And this kind of flaw makes less of a character.

 

Now that's not to offend anyone. It's not a huge deal. Nearly all of us have some kind of issue that makes us less than what we could be.

 

That just sounds boring.  It's like having a movie of a quest with nothing but Leonidas, Themistocles, Aragorn, Thor, and Perseus as your companions.  Yawn, boring.....

[oceanicsurvivor]

You know...it is.

 

It is a flaw. The wrong kind of flaw. Not the interesting kind that we can draw powerful arcs and conflicts from, but just the grey, dreary, sitting-in-traffic real life kind of flaw.

 

That's what this all comes down to. Making characters as great as they can be. The most they can be. And this kind of flaw makes less of a character.

 

Now that's not to offend anyone. It's not a huge deal. Nearly all of us have some kind of issue that makes us less than what we could be.

 

Whelp. Nope, I sincerely, passionately, 100% disagree with that.

 

Being fat isn't a character flaw. And frankly the idea that fat people are somehow inherently less compelling as people or even just as characters is gross and shows exactly why more fat characters (arguably fat women characters) are needed across all media.

[Bob from Accounting]

I'm not sure it's cool to just ignore human "flaws" or make them something terrible because well we have to live with them.

Sometimes I'm intelligent sometimes I'm not.

Sometimes I'm courageous sometimes I'm not.

Someday I look good , some other day not so much etc...

So ..I should what only like myself half of the time?

 

It's alright. The good half is more than strong enough to sustain you.