9318 réponses à ce sujet

[Gregolian]

There are multiple problems with this approach, however, starting with the fact that not every companion is going to be representative of every race and sex, so we run the risk of not getting to see female qunari in game, for instance, if there are no female qunari companions, and they take the suggestion of not showing any Inquisitors at all in marketing.

 

Another problem is that some of us really enjoy being able to see animations, hairstyles, makeup and tattoo options, etc., and there's no guarantee that companions will represent any of what we get in the character creator, since there's a chance that many of them will have unique models, with characteristics unavailable to the player character.  If we don't get to see the player character's potential model before the game comes out, we're unable to offer feedback, or at least offer constructive criticism for the future, in a timely manner.

 

Also, it seems a bit suspect that people are now in favor of not seeing the potential player character at all, when players are asking to see more of the female version.  I have never heard this asked for when past DA or ME games were being marketed primarily with the male "default" version of the PC.  Why is it a great idea to erase the player character from marketing now, when it was not something ever brought up back then?

I never brought it up back then because even though I was a member of the forums I barely ever posted.  I'm one of those guys that will post consistently for like 2 weeks and then disappear for like 3 months.

 

I understand your reasoning for wanting it in but I honestly really liked that E3 trailer we got of the game last year.

 

There was a game, I can't remember which one though, where one of the trailers/videos leading up to it's release (it was an RPG) where it showed a quick clip of SOME of the character creator and finished character COULD look like.

 

I'm just thinking back to the default characters used in the ME and DA trailers and how kinda..  well..  plain they were and how annoying it was that I couldn't get the blood smear on my created character if I didn't use a default face.

 

Granted, I used the default female Hawke face cause I can never make a female face look..  well..  "right" so to speak. There is always something that is off when I make it.

[ElitePinecone]

It's also standard (at least for Bioware's games) to pick a default version of the character to use in marketing, since so much of the gameplay is directing that protagonist in conversations and combat. 

 

It's one thing to want more coverage of femQuisitor, which I think is quite likely, but I don't see Bioware suddenly deciding to not show any Inquisitors at all and just show off the game using companion characters. 

 

I mean, we've already seen a gameplay demo with a default male Inquisitor, and a trailer with that voice. They aren't going to drop that and change their marketing tactics completely. 

 

(On a related note, I'm interested to see what happens with the next gameplay demo they do, probably at E3 - will it have the helmeted male warrior Inquisitor again?)

[mopotter]

Maybe women who watch makeup tutorials, etc...aren't into games, but could they be? I think so. Everyone starts somewhere and maybe games never appealed to those women before because they think everything is like CoD, racing games, etc...DA has everything that women would like in a movie, it's not a huge stretch to see them try it as a game

For the record, almost everything I own is pink and sparkly, I love makeup, fashion, have bleach blonde hair, drive a convertible, watch shows like ANTM and I LOVE BioWare games. They appeal to my emotions and my being people oriented as well as my need to dress my character up like a pretty pretty princess, customize characters and see them come to life, etc...past BW advertising (including both DA:I trailers and pax footage) would never have brought me into the fold.

 I don't wear makeup, Was once asked if I was a nun because of that. Which was silly because the dean was a nun and she always wore makeup, dresses and heals and loved to dance.  But my characters always wear some kind of makeup, and my mages wear the nicest outfits i can get them.  

 

I still would like something I could post on my facebook page.  I have friends who do not play anything other than candy crush and I am trying to influence them with pictures of my female characters.  I'd love to see something showing what can be done with the characterization options.

[mopotter]

To be honest I laugh a lot of these sorts of things off, and it may just be that I slept badly, but that really irks me. I have considered buying game guides before, so I guess it's good to know they're not interested in my money.

I need to find my Mass Effect books.  I can't remember which one it was, but one of them had Fem Shepard throughout the book and no pictures of male Shep.  It was rather nice.

[The Hierophant]

9TailsFox and First Degree Mordor, just dead it.

9Tails you're off topic to nearly a ridiculous degree (lol pun) while First Degree you're silly for downplaying sexism regardless of the gender.

Seriously, just dead it.

[Mes]

^^ Lol never heard the phrase "dead it" but I like it.

 

Yes please, this thread must survive! Have cookies! 

[Legenlorn]

9TailsFox and First Degree Mordor, just dead it.

9Tails you're off topic to nearly a ridiculous degree (lol pun) while First Degree you're silly for downplaying sexism regardless of the gender.

Seriously, just dead it.

Was going to write a comment to First Degree (and a rather angry one) but I see Hierophant did the right thing. I salute you for that.

[Legenlorn]

^^ Lol never heard the phrase "dead it" but I like it.

 

Yes please, this thread must survive! Have cookies! 

And Icecream.

 

Yeah sorry - ending the off topic posts now

[mopotter]

Oh, for pete's sake.  KOTOR and it's sequel, just for starters.  Do your own research.  And stop moving the goalposts; suddenly MMOs don't count because Reasons?  Get over yourself. 

Well, they don't count for me, unless I can play it as a single player, which i do in TOR.  I'm anti-social.  Only play single player games so i don't have to play with other people.   If I were a guy there would be plenty of single player games i could pick from.  As a woman, not so many.  It's one reason I buy BioWare, Elder Scrolls and Fall Out.  Though Fall out 3 had been out for a few years before I picked it up, because I didn't realize I could play myself until I heard it somewhere else, probably here.

[WildOrchid]

 

(On a related note, I'm interested to see what happens with the next gameplay demo they do, probably at E3 - will it have the helmeted male warrior Inquisitor again?)

 

I hope we see the female as well

I mean, they already showed the male, it won't hurt to show the female.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I hope we see the female as well
I mean, they already showed the male, it won't hurt to show the female.

Id like that but ill be surprised if its anything other then the default male human which is a shame. Is weird to me that a game with different genders, races & a detailed CC would mostly only show 1 version of the main character in marketing while ignoring the other options almost completely.

[DragonRacer]

Okay, I know you posted a lot and it was all really good, but this got to me. I was playing Pong and Berserk when I was 5 and 6. I was the girl at the arcade in grade school. That's a crap argument and whoever said that either never bothered to look around when he was at the arcade (or was never at an arcade and considers his entire "gaming" experience to be various iterations of Nintendo and Playstation) or he's willfully ignorant. Neither of those options are good.

 

Eh, I actually didn't find that statement very surprising, to be honest. It feels like, for the most part, that many seem surprised or caught off-guard with the concept of women playing video games. Maybe it varies culturally from place to place, but my own life anecdotes reinforce that.

 

I, like you, was the girl who's been gaming since I was 5 or 6 years old and my Dad let me play with him on his Atari 2600 and Intellivision, and showed me how to load up the floppy disks in his Commodore 64. I'd rush to my uncle's house to play the latest game or console he got, and so I experienced Doom and Quake on the PC, got to try the original XBox and Playstation, etc. I went to the arcades with my friends and had playdates to game with my male friends. My Super Nintendo put in a LOT of 2-player work in my younger days... and still works to this day, actually, though I only play it every now and then for nostalgia.

 

And yet, with all that said... every single time I said I was into video games, it came as a surprise and a shock to people. Every single male friend I made seemed blown away that a girl would like video games, and then we'd be bosom buddies 2-playering it up after school every day. And earning mad respect for beating them, too. A girl who liked video games AND was good at them to boot? Seemed too much to believe until I proved it time and time again.

 

With all that being said, I never once had a female friend who liked video games. All my 2-player time was spent with boys. Even now, an adult turning 29 next month, I still don't have any female friends in my everyday real life who play video games (unless you count the Facebook and mobile phone/iPad games, which... eeeeeh, I don't view them in the same category as me binging on my console, sorry, I just don't). The only girl friend gamers I have are all ones I have met online either on forums or in the game lobbies. And there are a LOT of us out there. But we seem spread thin... at least, in my area of northeast Florida, we are.

 

And again with all that said, even in this "modern" day of gaming, I feel like the stereotype of "girls don't game" is still there. I saw it a few years ago when my husband and I were talking about a video game at a family party, and my 11-year-old male cousin overheard and just had to come up and ask if I really played video games. It was like I was back in school all over again, the cycle repeating itself (he now thinks I'm the coolest chick ever because of my video gaming and knowledge of awesome games to get for his birthday, LOL).

 

So, to hear "women are new to video games" doesn't really surprise me at all. It feels like that's the reaction I've always been met with every single time.

[Legenlorn]

@DragonRacer

Sorry to say this but even knowing women/girls play games (just like you I don't think of say Dragon Age on par with candy crush) and acknowledging that fact I still find myself surprised when I hear that SHE plays games. Having lived through school and now at a university (where there were always more girls in the class/group - roughly 2/3ds) I have met 5 women/girls that did play games. Two of them were met while playing WoW and SWTOR. The other 2 played sims (somewhat higher up my ranking of games) and 1 is a "hardcore" gamer (games like dark souls/witcher/dragon age/skyrim - you get the drift.)

 

Funny thing is I feel happy to meet a girl that does like games as much as I do. Just throwing my lot into the bag. 

[Gregolian]

Well there's your problem...  you live in Florida.  

[XMissWooX]

Also in regards to the argument that game companies shouldn't market to females, because 'there aren't enough women playing video games':
Actually, there are plenty of women playing video games, and there have been for a long time - we just don't come out and say "by the way, I'm a woman" because 1) we don't see how our gender is relevent - we just want to play the games, and 2) when we do we get hit with comments like "are you sexy?" "will you f**k me?" "Suck my d*ck" and "lol get back in the kitchen", etc.
Now not everyone will respond like that - there are plenty of gamers who will just be happy they've found a fellow player who loves games as much as they do. But others react badly, and they tend to be the most vocal. It's a bit like bringing a cat to a dog show - you know it's not going to end well, and really it's just not worth the hassle.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Also in regards to the argument that game companies shouldn't market to females, because 'there aren't enough women playing video games':
Actually, there are plenty of women playing video games, and there have been for a long time - we just don't come out and say "by the way, I'm a woman" because 1) we don't see how our gender is relevent - we just want to play the games, and 2) when we do we get hit with comments like "are you sexy?" "will you f**k me?" "Suck my d*ck" and "lol get back in the kitchen", etc.
Now not everyone will respond like that - there are plenty of gamers who will just be happy they've found a fellow player who loves games as much as they do. But others react badly, and they tend to be the most vocal. It's a bit like bringing a cat to a dog show - you know it's not going to end well, and really it's just not worth the hassle.

Some people are childish, isn't nice getting kicked from a MP game just for being female.

[Legenlorn]

Also in regards to the argument that game companies shouldn't market to females, because 'there aren't enough women playing video games':
Actually, there are plenty of women playing video games, and there have been for a long time - we just don't come out and say "by the way, I'm a woman" because 1) we don't see how our gender is relevent - we just want to play the games, and 2) when we do we get hit with comments like "are you sexy?" "will you f**k me?" "Suck my d*ck" and "lol get back in the kitchen", etc.
Now not everyone will respond like that - there are plenty of gamers who will just be happy they've found a fellow player who loves games as much as they do. But others react badly, and they tend to be the most vocal. It's a bit like bringing a cat to a dog show - you know it's not going to end well, and really it's just not worth the hassle.

Well just to be fair I hear loads of comments like "suck my d" or something referring to my mother and what not (mostly in multiplayer shooters) That just shows who is on the other end of the internet.

And you seem to think your gender is relevant - hence the "demand" of using a female char in marketing. Now don't get me wrong here. What I mean is if all the women went out and showed that they are women than the marketing guys would see you as an actual number (that's how they see males).

Also your gender is relevant in a the way that a different marketing strategy applies.

[Legenlorn]

Some people are childish, isn't nice getting kicked from a MP game just for being female.

I get kicked from some servers for being my nationality

[DragonRacer]

@DragonRacer

Sorry to say this but even knowing women/girls play games (just like you I don't think of say Dragon Age on par with candy crush) and acknowledging that fact I still find myself surprised when I hear that SHE plays games. Having lived through school and now at a university (where there were always more girls in the class/group - roughly 2/3ds) I have met 5 women/girls that did play games. Two of them were met while playing WoW and SWTOR. The other 2 played sims (somewhat higher up my ranking of games) and 1 is a "hardcore" gamer (games like dark souls/witcher/dragon age/skyrim - you get the drift.)

 

Funny thing is I feel happy to meet a girl that does like games as much as I do. Just throwing my lot into the bag. 

 

I hear ya.

 

It may just be my perception - and I could totally be wrong - but it feels like female gamers are a bit more... diversified? Disjointed? I don't know the word I'm looking for, but it kinda feels like when I think of guys gaming, I think of hardcore PC gaming or hardcore console gaming. But women gamers seem to be at all sorts of different levels, from the ones that only play The Sims types of games and/or my coworkers who play Candy Crush and Angry Birds but they look lost/intimidated when I start talking about getting a PS4 and what I did on ME3 MP over the weekend... to the ones who, like they've said here, only play games if there is a female protagonist option or play because there are romance storylines... to girl gamers like myself, who will play any PC or console game that looks like it's fun and lengthy.

 

It's almost like, if BioWare were to try and market to girl gamers... you almost have to ask which group? Aiming for the ones that play for the romances? Aiming for the ones that just want a strong female character to represent themselves? Aiming for just everyone you possibly can?

 

That's just my take on it. Would I like to see a FemInquisitor in a trailer or some type of marketing? Absolutely! The majority of my DA, ME, Elder Scrolls, and Fallout playthroughs are female characters (although I do always make it a point to roll some males as well, to explore the nuanced differences and see the opposite sides of some romances). But I'll still be getting DAI regardless of what ends up happening with marketing because it's a genre and game company that I love. Even if there was no female protagonist option, I'd still buy it. Lord knows I've spent most of my life having to play with a digital tallywhacker, so I'm used to it. LOL But it does make the playthrough click for me more to play my own gender, I will admit that.

 

 

Well there's your problem...  you live in Florida.  

 

It is a truly bizarre state, nobody can deny that.

[XMissWooX]

Well just to be fair I hear loads of comments like "suck my d" or something referring to my mother and what not (mostly in multiplayer shooters) That just shows who is on the other end of the internet.
And you seem to think your gender is relevant - hence the "demand" of using a female char in marketing. Now don't get me wrong here. What I mean is if all the women went out and showed that they are women than the marketing guys would see you as an actual number (that's how they see males).
Also your gender is relevant in a the way that a different marketing strategy applies.

By my gender being irrelevant I meant that I don't see why I should have to write a disclaimer in my bio saying "disclaimer - I'm a woman" or log into a game and say straight off the bat "hey, everyone, stop for a second, I have something to tell you - I'm a woman. Just so you know".
I mean, when males log onto a game do they feel the need to specify "Hi, I'm looking to join your guild. I'm specced to be a tank, I can logon every weekend for a few hours, and also, I'm a guy".
Being a woman isn't going to automatically render me handicapped/make me any worse at the game/be detrimental to my attention span or impact my performance in any other way, so I don't really see why anyone would care, let alone why I should announce myself to them.

[ElitePinecone]

Also in regards to the argument that game companies shouldn't market to females, because 'there aren't enough women playing video games':
Actually, there are plenty of women playing video games, and there have been for a long time - we just don't come out and say "by the way, I'm a woman" because 1) we don't see how our gender is relevent - we just want to play the games, and 2) when we do we get hit with comments like "are you sexy?" "will you f**k me?" "Suck my d*ck" and "lol get back in the kitchen", etc.
Now not everyone will respond like that - there are plenty of gamers who will just be happy they've found a fellow player who loves games as much as they do. But others react badly, and they tend to be the most vocal. It's a bit like bringing a cat to a dog show - you know it's not going to end well, and really it's just not worth the hassle.

 

I think it's important to note that many companies use market research that would prove definitively the sort of audience that exists for gaming in general and for certain genres - we hear those statistics quoted and misused all the time, but on some level (probably private research that doesn't get released to the public) it would be very accurate. If the research is properly constructed, women who play games will feature regardless of whether they identify themselves as such while actually playing the games. Publicly identifying as a woman might go some way to changing gamers' perceptions, but the industry itself already has a very good idea of the gender breakdown in their audience. Where those data feed into misguided assumptions, however, is where I think the industry lets itself down. 

 

So when marketing people make those sorts of statements, they are speaking in good faith about a topic they know quite well. That doesn't mean their position is sensible, or fair - I think marketing to young males is aggravating and unsustainable - but they're not just making things up because they feel like it. They know the gaming market inside out, in more ways than we will ever understand, because that's their job. David Gaider's GDC speech that was posted in this thread is a great argument for why the "women don't play games" view is short-sighted, but I think it will take that sort of persistent persuasion to change things, precisely because the industry right now is so preoccupied with the status quo. 

 

Of course, people using personal experience to make those sorts of statements ("I never see women playing games, so women don't play games") are almost certainly wrong. Personal experience is a poor substitute for good statistical research, which unfortunately gets thrown out the window in a lot of these discussions. We can't really have access to good data, though, and I've seen enough arguments about gender in videogames where both sides misuse statistics for their own purposes. Ultimately only the publishers have access to solid information, and they use that as a basis for their decisions. 

 

(Which, in EA's case, certainly seem to be tending towards more diversity in gender, sexuality and racial backgrounds, at least in recent years - for a big publisher, I think that can be seen as a sign of confidence in a wider audience for their games.)

[XMissWooX]

In terms of marketing, my earlier point is just an extension of the "Bioware would market to women, if more women played their games" argument I've seen a few times.
You can't use anecdotal evidence (e.g. "I only know 5 women who play Video games") because, unless they tell you explicitly (and not everyone is willing to do that), how would you know if an unidentified player is female/homosexual/black/Buddhist/disabled etc.
You also can't rely on official statistics - I studied Sociology and Psychology at school and, though I'm no expert, a major part of both curriculums was learning how difficult it is to collect accurate data. Problems like your target group being biased (e.g. sending a questionnaire to more men that women), your questionnaire not reaching a large number of your target group (e.g. only a small percentage of people who play Bioware games complete it, not giving a holistic view) and other complications (e.g. not everyone will fit into a 'male' or 'female' tick box so they leave it blank or choose 'other' - you have no way of know what sex/gender these people are/identify as, so do you discount their response, or do you include it anyway, and if so, how do you classify them?).

[Legenlorn]

By my gender being irrelevant I meant that I don't see why I should have to write a disclaimer in my bio saying "disclaimer - I'm a woman" or log into a game and say straight off the bat "hey, everyone, stop for a second, I have something to tell you - I'm a woman. Just so you know".
I mean, when males log onto a game do they feel the need to specify "Hi, I'm looking to join your guild. I'm specced to be a tank, I can logon every weekend for a few hours, and also, I'm a guy".
Being a woman isn't going to automatically render me handicapped/make me any worse at the game/be detrimental to my attention span or impact my performance in any other way, so I don't really see why anyone would care, let alone why I should announce myself to them.

Ok I understand. Will just note that in a way you as a woman are different. The difference is mental so a guy might see something differently than a girl or take on a task differently. (And no I am not implying that that is bad or anything)

[Lady Nuggins]

 What I mean is if all the women went out and showed that they are women than the marketing guys would see you as an actual number (that's how they see males).

 

I think there are tons of women already doing this, actually, and not without backlash.  Just look at how Felicia Day got called a "glorified booth babe" because some dude thought she needed to prove her geek cred.

 

I mean, I go to PAX every year, and usually I find the male-to-female ratio to be about 50/50.  The women are out there for the devs and marketers to see.  But many of them will tell you it's not just about the numbers.  Women make up more than 50% of the movie-going audience, yet Hollywood is still largely marketing to men.  Not because they don't realize the women are there, but because they believe that if they market to women, the men will not watch, but if they market to men, the women will show up anyway. And yet, Hollywood films with female leads did extremely well last year, because I don't believe the vast majority of real live men are actually that scared off by movies about women, any more than most male gamers would be scared off by the sight of one on a game cover.

[Eonetic]

How come there is so much hate for The Witcher on the bioware forums?