9318 réponses à ce sujet

[Eralrik]

Joan of Arc.

 

[Grieving Natashina]

I think Tails is confusing "sexy" and "sexualized" again.  Or "feminine" and "girly."    Here's some great examples of fighters that still look like feminine wearing real armor.  All credit goes to: womenfighters.tumblr.com

 

Spoiler

 

 

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Spoiler

 

That's what we're talking about when we'd like to see women actually dressed for battle.  Armor's that practical, useful and still looks like a woman in armor.  All of these women look like they are going out to fight.  

 

What we're sick of is this (from the game Tera:)

 

Spoiler

 

 

Is it so hard to conceive why women are tired of armor like the example from Tera?  

 

On the flip side, imagine if damn near every game, nearly bit of advertising and all of the booth "babes" had their men look like this:

 

Spoiler

 

Maybe now you can see why a lot of women and men are really sick of the "sexy" chain-mail bikini look.

[Rosey]

There's a huge difference between "Feminine Armors" and Bikini Plate. And in the case of actual armor, there is no actual "boob plate" and "midrift leathers". Because armor's job is to protect vital organs and weak spots from sharp pointy things (swords, arrows, etc). And while I occasionally like that sort of thing, I'm getting to a point in my life that seeing a female protag walk around with her stomach and thighs and boobs exposed while she's being whacked with a big ass sword is very off-putting.

 

Like, for example - in mass effect the ladies armors were all form fitting. I have zero issue with this in terms of the universe it's set in, especially since the male armors were also form fitting. There really wasn't a huge discrepancy between femshep and broshep's armors. Even on the extreem ends of ME armors, Jacob and Miranda were on par in the "overly sexy" department. The quarian suits weren't terribly different between sexes.. neither were the Turians nor the Krogans, nor... you get the point All of the races armors, even the most extreme versions of them, had a male counterpart that was equally as form fitting or not form fitting.

 

Jack- who by far is the most extreme, armors wise, has less to do with "showing off she has girl parts" and more to do with who she is as a person -- and even later on in the game she has different "cover up because space and guns" armors, and even her dlc armor covers her exposed bits. And while yeah there's a little bit of skin shown or excessive booty shots, it almost NEVER feels out of place or over exploitative.

 

Mind you I'm just talking about armors - there were a few writing disparages that I wish hadn't happened...

 

On the whole, while I believe all of us are A-Okay with the occasional (bolded because we'd still like to see less of that **** too) "Her armor hugs her boobs.. why.." moments, we're all pretty sick of our wiminz running around in tiny ass plate bikini's that would sooner have our ladies cut in two over actually protecting her. While on the flip side your dudes are in full plate armor. We all like hot ladies. We just don't like their armor being so very NOT there.

 

In games like Dragon Age, we've seen our complaints on this actively being corrected. Rogues no longer run around with their tummies exposed (dalish armor *fistshake*). Where Warrior ladies never ran around in plate armor that looked like it was made out of form fitting rubber. They ran around in actual full body plate. If a character's outfit was tight and exposed bits of said lady - it was because that particular lady chose to dress that way for a reason (Isabela needs no pants!) and not because "ladies should show lady bits to prove their ladies!"

 

Even in the new game, not a one of the ladies are dressed "becuz wiminz". Their outfits look as if it would be something they themselves would chose. If Vivenne's robes are super tight around her boobs it's because she went and had them tailored specifically to fit her body. Because proper tailoring is important to her. She wants to look like a lady even if she's forced to be covered in mud. And that's blank blankity fantastic.

[Bugsie]

So what is the point of discussion. If no one say opposite opinion. Everyone just agree. It's not discussion its different people just repeating same opinion. And you gave great exemplar about Divinity Original sin, armour was change because some people didn't like design, what about people who liked it? Developers was forced to change it because some one didn't like it And from posts I read I get impression what every one who is warrior must be put in armour from toe to head or neck (To see character face is more important the realism). I see post and just express my different opinion. 

What would happen if someone created post asking more reviling/sexy armour,would people nicely express different opinion, person most likely would be just flamen and topic locked. Topic was created to ask more feminine armour, pure girl was just flamed as hell. And I don't say to shut up to anyone, everyone have right to say what they want. But don't act surprised if someone wants, exactly opposite you want.

Please stop.  You've come into this thread supposedly 'arguing in good faith' when all you've done is rile people up, claimed we're 'forcing our opinions on you' and that certain characters are that way and because people like you like it so we should just 'deal with it' which is effectively telling us to shut up.  Classic derailment.

 

You come into a thread full of (mostly) women and say "I like sexy women in bikini armour."  then get annoyed when we say we don't?  Seriously?  We've just spent a whole thread discussing the difference between sexy and sexualised and why we find one empowering and the other demeaning and all too common.  I know English is your second language but you seem intelligent enough to at least comprehend the numerous posts saying just those things.  Most of us like sexy, what we object too is when this is presented as the only 'feature' the character has.

 

Oh and your comment on Wonder Women being made for male gaze, is wrong.  If you bothered to read about her creator or how her character came about you would know that she was created to be a model for that era's unconventional, liberated woman.  Also her outfit?  Apparently designed to be rooted in American symbolism and iconography but also have a connection with her Amazon roots, not for titillation.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Second half of the demo video from E3 is up! Relevant to this thread because it is full of our beloved cupcake-attracting Inquisitor in all her badass glory. We even get to hear a few lines without anyone talking over them this time .

[Allan Schumacher]

So what is the point of discussion. If no one say opposite opinion. Everyone just agree. It's not discussion its different people just repeating same opinion. And you gave great exemplar about Divinity Original sin, armour was change because some people didn't like design, what about people who liked it? Developers was forced to change it because some one didn't like it And from posts I read I get impression what every one who is warrior must be put in armour from toe to head or neck (To see character face is more important the realism). I see post and just express my different opinion. 

What would happen if someone created post asking more reviling/sexy armour,would people nicely express different opinion, person most likely would be just flamen and topic locked. Topic was created to ask more feminine armour, pure girl was just flamed as hell. And I don't say to shut up to anyone, everyone have right to say what they want. But don't act surprised if someone wants, exactly opposite you want.

 

What do you mean "If no one says opposite opinion?"  Is your opinion "Could we please see less of the Lady Inquisitor?"  Are you hear to speak up on behalf of the poor people that just need to have sexualized women in their games?

 

Coming in and telling people that it's pointless because other people want the opposite is an implicit "stop talking."  Although IMO it may mean "we need to make sure we keep getting heard."

 

On a personal level, not all "opposite perspectives" are valid ones.  For example, I wouldn't entertain someone who decided to come into a thread about slavery to talk about how it's a wonderful thing.  If someone wants exactly the opposite, I'd be curious as to the specifics as to why:  because I'm of the opinion it has a dubious foundation.

 

 

If you want to discuss why it's good to have less women in games give it a try, but there's a good chance you're not going to come across as respectful in doing so, because in many ways it's not a respectful position to have.

[9TailsFox]

What do you mean "If no one says opposite opinion?"  Is your opinion "Could we please see less of the Lady Inquisitor?"  Are you hear to speak up on behalf of the poor people that just need to have sexualized women in their games?

 

Coming in and telling people that it's pointless because other people want the opposite is an implicit "stop talking."  Although IMO it may mean "we need to make sure we keep getting heard."

 

On a personal level, not all "opposite perspectives" are valid ones.  For example, I wouldn't entertain someone who decided to come into a thread about slavery to talk about how it's a wonderful thing.  If someone wants exactly the opposite, I'd be curious as to the specifics as to why:  because I'm of the opinion it has a dubious foundation.

 

 

If you want to discuss why it's good to have less women in games give it a try, but there's a good chance you're not going to come across as respectful in doing so, because in many ways it's not a respectful position to have.

I don't understand why you puling word from my mouth, I didn't say. I was referring not to original topic, but to post witch says armour design must be changed because it offends what person. So i guess I am at fault from going off topic?

And on sexualization. Personally, I don't play games to worry about whether people are being portrayed in a properly 3 dimensional fashion, just as I don't attend a meeting at work and expect the people in the room be dressed half naked. It feels like on video games forum we talking about real life and not video games. 

[Uirebhiril]

 

And on sexualization. Personally, I don't play games to worry about whether people are being portrayed in a properly 3 dimensional fashion, just as I don't attend a meeting at work and expect the people in the room be dressed half naked. It feels like on video games forum we talking about real life and not video games. 

 

Except that in real life women have to face the same problems of being caricatures based on the impressions of men and we're a little tired of that carrying over to a fantasy video game where we would also like to be the powerful warriors saving the day and not overly-sexualized and boobheavy male eyecandy.

 

Perspective matters.

[9TailsFox]

Please stop.  You've come into this thread supposedly 'arguing in good faith' when all you've done is rile people up, claimed we're 'forcing our opinions on you' and that certain characters are that way and because people like you like it so we should just 'deal with it' which is effectively telling us to shut up.  Classic derailment.

 

You come into a thread full of (mostly) women and say "I like sexy women in bikini armour."  then get annoyed when we say we don't?  Seriously?  We've just spent a whole thread discussing the difference between sexy and sexualised and why we find one empowering and the other demeaning and all too common.  I know English is your second language but you seem intelligent enough to at least comprehend the numerous posts saying just those things.  Most of us like sexy, what we object too is when this is presented as the only 'feature' the character has.

 

Oh and your comment on Wonder Women being made for male gaze, is wrong.  If you bothered to read about her creator or how her character came about you would know that she was created to be a model for that era's unconventional, liberated woman.  Also her outfit?  Apparently designed to be rooted in American symbolism and iconography but also have a connection with her Amazon roots, not for titillation.

I understand what you mean. And I understand difference between  Sexy and sexualised. I was just angry because I get the feeling from post "all armour must be realistic and cover full body" "remove all sexualised armour from game" I don't want realistic armour, I want impractical and different armour like Avelina and sexy like Isabela. I am sorry If come with angry attitude, and you right about Diana.

[9TailsFox]

Except that in real life women have to face the same problems of being caricatures based on the impressions of men and we're a little tired of that carrying over to a fantasy video game where we would also like to be the powerful warriors saving the day and not overly-sexualized and boobheavy male eyecandy.

 

Perspective matters.

I am sorry you have this problem in my environment we don't have it, everyone is treated bad regardless gender. Maybe this is why I don't understand this as problem.

[Grieving Natashina]

Talis, you've been asked by Allan to either productively contribute in a positive way to the thread or leave.  I would highly suggest taking him up on his suggestion.  Fighting with him isn't strengthening your case.  

 

If you feel what we are discussing is counter-productive to what you want from your games, then start your own thread here in the Feedback section politely requesting to keep the "chain mail bikini/armor with a boob window" look in Dragon Age games and other forms of media.  It's certainly more productive and a better use of your time (and ours) than trying to convince everyone in this thread that you're right.  Just be warned now that the idea wouldn't fly very well.  You'd be surprised at the men that post in here and lurk that see where many of us are coming from.   Yes, men outside of Allan have posted here in support of better representation of the female Inquisitor and for women in video games (and other aspects of "geek culture") as a whole.

 

I apologize for the tangent on my part.  I'd recommend we just ignore this guy and his attempts to derail this conversation.   We'll let Allan deal with him.  

 

In the meantime, (and I apologize if this has been asked recently,) what is the next race everyone wants to see featured as a Lady Inquisitor?  I'm thinking either dwarf or human.  That's partially due to my own bias, I'll admit.  Dwarves are my favorite DA race. 

 

Second half of the demo video from E3 is up! Relevant to this thread because it is full of our beloved cupcake-attracting Inquisitor in all her badass glory. We even get to hear a few lines without anyone talking over them this time .

It's a beautiful thing.  

[themikefest]

I liked the demo. Too bad we couldn't hear more of AWR's voice.

 

And for the record since I'm a male and very old-fashioned. I find women warriors or any class wearing little to almost nothing when in battle or in the game in general is a major turn off. For me, I was more attracted to Aveline and Meredith and they didn't have to wear skimpy armor.

[syllogi]

 

In the meantime, (and I apologize if this has been asked recently,) what is the next race everyone wants to see featured as a Lady Inquisitor?  I'm thinking either dwarf or human.  That's partially due to my own bias, I'll admit.  Dwarves are my favorite DA race. 

 

Lady dwarves!  Now that we've seen female qunari, that's the next big thing on my personal list.  Even if it's not the Inquisitor (coughDAGNAcough), I'd love to see a female dwarf.  But a CC generated dwarf Femquisitor would be excellent too.

 

It's funny, I usually play a human on my first playthrough of games with racial choice, like NWN and DA:O, but I'm so excited to have the option back that I don't think I'll be playing a human in DA:I till my fourth playthrough, at the least.  

[Grieving Natashina]

The only human I have in mind so far is one I'm going to roll as my second Quizzy for the m/m relationship with Dorian.  Personally, I'd just love to see a dwarven lady kicking some butt and taking names.  It would also be very welcome to have a lady rogue instead of a warrior to represent the female dwarf Quizzy, but I'm going not to be that picky.

 

I love elves, but I guess I'm kinda "meh" on seeing them for now because I see elves being used for promotion in several games all over the place. I almost never have seen a female dwarf used for promotion in games that have the race and it would be a nice change.

 

 

I liked the demo. Too bad we couldn't hear more of AWR's voice.

 

And for the record since I'm a male and very old-fashioned. I find women warriors or any class wearing little to almost nothing when in battle or in the game in general is a major turn off. For me, I was more attracted to Aveline and Meredith and they didn't have to wear skimpy armor.

Mike, we don't always agree on lore stuff, but I love your thoughts in here.  Thank you! 

[Allan Schumacher]

I don't understand why you puling word from my mouth, I didn't say. I was referring not to original topic, but to post witch says armour design must be changed because it offends what person. So i guess I am at fault from going off topic?

 

So a person shouldn't say they don't like an armor design?

And on sexualization. Personally, I don't play games to worry about whether people are being portrayed in a properly 3 dimensional fashion, just as I don't attend a meeting at work and expect the people in the room be dressed half naked. It feels like on video games forum we talking about real life and not video games.

 

If you don't worry about it, is it safe to say you wouldn't care if it was changed then?

[displayname]

So a person shouldn't say they don't like an armor design?

Yes.

 

If you don't worry about it, is it safe to say you wouldn't care if it was changed then?

Does that mean we will have prettier head morphs for the characters in game on a slider?

 

Also, yes please: more plate-kinis.

[Grieving Natashina]

This isn't to anyone in particular, I've been catching up on the thread over the last few days.  It's pretty huge so I'm going through it still.  

 

Reading some of the things I have like this remind me why it took so long for women openly admit to being gamers.  For years, we'd try to have conversations like this only to be told that we just have to "deal with it."  As more and more women grow up, enter the gaming industry, and take stock of the situation, they notice a disturbing trend.  They are realizing that women are almost constantly being treated as sexy objects, just for sex or plot points.  

 

Much of it comes down to the way they are dressed and presented to the media.  Women are sick of it and it seems like many men are finding it tiresome too.  My husband actually hates the way that some games and other media are marketed to him.  He feels like the game is trying to appeal to his "dumb male ego" by showing tons of T&A.  He'd much rather see game play and if a woman is in the lead, to be treated with respect.  He doesn't play games that try to appeal to him as a horny straight guy with their marketing.  Not a one, although to be fair in his own words, "Most of those games are crap games anyhow, doesn't matter how many boobs they try to put on the box.  If the gameplay sucks, I'm not going to buy it."

 

I'm beginning to think the number of female gamers isn't rising so much as more women are being open about playing video games now.  We don't feel like we should have to mute our mics, or hide our interest in games anymore.  Many men and women have noticed that the skimpy marketing hasn't helped things and in fact could be doing a lot of harm.  

 

Big-chested gals are sick of having so many portrayals showing them as "Boobs McGee, the Amazing Stripper," for ads and marketing.  On the flip side, smaller chested gals (hiya) are sick of usually being portrayed as children or at least childlike, naive...but don't forget that panty shot so they can "make up" for having a small chest .  If they are there at all and if they are seen as an adult.  Romance, forget it.  "Eww, she's like a kid with a chest that flat."  <sigh>

 

It should not be this way, and it seems like finally more and more in the gaming industry are willing to talk about this.

 

 

There is still a lot of work the gaming industry needs to do (Rainbow Six's boo-boo; Ubisoft trying to tell us that women would have been too much work and getting called out for it in a very epic fashion on twitter,) but the climate is recognizing that treating female characters like that, and by proxy, their female consumers, is no longer acceptable.

 

It's not "just a video game" anymore, it's as ingrained into Western culture at this point much like movies and television are. I know it isn't so unreasonable to ask that women get the same levels of respect as men.  Or to have a discussion with both genders that we need to take steps to make sure that equal isn't perceived as less, which is so often the case.  

[themikefest]

Mike, we don't always agree on lore stuff, but I love your thoughts in here.  Thank you! 

Thanks. And if I may ask, what lore stuff don't we agree on?

[Grieving Natashina]

Thanks. And if I may ask, what lore stuff don't we agree on?

If memory serves, you're Pro-Templar, whereas I'm pro-Compromise.  I don't always agree on some of your mage/templar views, but you are usually respectful when you present your case.  That and I hated Meredith, but I can say I respected the hell outta her.  Really, nothing that's gonna matter too much in the grand scheme of the next game.  I've been busy in here, Varric and the romance thread to care too much about another robes/skirts debate.    

[Gwydden]

It's not "just a video game" anymore, it's as ingrained into Western culture at this point much like movies and television are. I know it isn't so unreasonable to ask that women get the same levels of respect as men.  Or to have a discussion with both genders that we need to take steps to make sure that equal isn't perceived as less, which is so often the case.  

*Sigh*

 

You know, in some ways the saddest part is that it truly is not a conspiracy. It's not that video game developers are sexist douche bags. I mean, I'm sure some of them are, but not all, I'd daresay not even most of them. But frankly? Most developers are straight men who care nothing for representation or even decent storytelling. So they just appeal to the lowest common denominator, assuming that's what their perceived audience (young horny male nerds, probably) wants.

 

And I think it's telling that they have so low an opinion of their audience that they think all they want is to be Generic Male Action Heroes^TM rescuing half naked damsels. And the men in these games hardly have any more personality than the women, just enough to satisfy what these developers perceive as their audience. And seeing how much some of these games get bought, maybe it is more than just a perception. But I'm inclined to believe this is simply because we haven't been shown enough alternatives.

 

Me, personally, I'm as sick of seeing Generic Male Action Heroes^TM as I am of seeing Generic Sexualized Female Damsels^TM. That's the main reason I couldn't get into the Game That Shall Not Be Named, which is supposedly targeted to my demographic. I like sexy women as much as the next straight guy, but sensible clothes and an appealing personality enter my definition of sexy as much as an attractive physique.

 

Maybe I'm weird or something.

[themikefest]

If memory serves, you're Pro-Templar, whereas I'm pro-Compromise.  I don't always agree on some of your mage/templar views, but you are usually respectful when you present your case.  That and I hated Meredith, but I can say I respected the hell outta her.  Really, nothing that's gonna matter too much in the grand scheme of the next game.  I've been busy in here, Varric and the romance thread to care too much about another robes/skirts debate.  

With the Templars. All my playthroughs in DA2 when I play as a mage I support the Templars. And no I don't have an answer as to why I pick them when playing as a mage. When I play a warrior or rogue, majority of the time I support the mages. With Meredith, I like her. A very strong willed woman who doesn't take crap from no one. She reminds me of someone. Its unfortunate the red lyrium effected her throughout act 3.

 

Depending on what happens in DAI I will do a playthrough supporting this side and that side. I want to get the full experience when playing the game. If it takes 20 playthroughs to get all the dialogue and different scenarios, then that's what I will do.

 

Thanks for the answering my post.

[beethovengenius]

This Tails fellow seems to be either an ignorant ass or an ignorant troll.

"I am sorry you have this problem in my environment we don't have it, everyone is treated bad regardless gender. Maybe this is why I don't understand this as problem." Well it is a matter of perception, what you might regard as a joke or a compliment towards a woman might be construed as unwanted attention and potential offense. The reality of the situation is that a high percentage of women report harassment in the workplace to varying degrees and also many women do not report incidents of harassment for fear of repercussion from their employer's. Here are a few useful links that might help to educate the ignorant.  http://www.aware.org.../14-statistics/ and a good documentary by the bbc that illustrates quiet succinctly the prevalence of harassment of women in all walks of life https://www.youtube....h?v=89fjkRfPsDw also a great example of a beautiful and highly intelligent woman with lot's of class https://www.youtube....h?v=U09O9DXWdHc although the interviewer is terrible and personally, I think he is intimidated by a woman more intelligent than he is.

[Grieving Natashina]

*Sigh*

 

You know, in some ways the saddest part is that it truly is not a conspiracy. It's not that video game developers are sexist douche bags. I mean, I'm sure some of them are, but not all, I'd daresay not even most of them. But frankly? Most developers are straight men who care nothing for representation or even decent storytelling. So they just appeal to the lowest common denominator, assuming that's what their perceived audience (young horny male nerds, probably) wants.

 

And I think it's telling that they have so low an opinion of their audience that they think all they want is to be Generic Male Action Heroes^TM rescuing half naked damsels. And the men in these games hardly have any more personality than the women, just enough to satisfy what these developers perceive as their audience. And seeing how much some of these games get bought, maybe it is more than just a perception. But I'm inclined to believe this is simply because we haven't been shown enough alternatives.

 

Me, personally, I'm as sick of seeing Generic Male Action Heroes^TM as I am of seeing Generic Sexualized Female Damsels^TM. That's the main reason I couldn't get into the Game That Shall Not Be Named, which is supposedly targeted to my demographic. I like sexy women as much as the next straight guy, but sensible clothes and an appealing personality enter my definition of sexy as much as an attractive physique.

 

Maybe I'm weird or something.

I think it's laziness myself.  It's really easy to fall back on the "tried and true," so you don't alienate your core audience.   The lines you quoted from me were more towards other gamers than the industry as a whole.  If anything, E3 proves that some things just aren't going to work anymore, even from within the industry itself.

 

You're not weird.  I made a post a couple of days ago talking about how the idealization of men is almost as bad as the sexualization of women.  I'll link it to you if you are curious.

 

@Mike You're welcome.  We can debate/discuss the robe and skirt mess in a relevant thread sometime.  I just don't talk about it much anymore.  Several months on the subject burned me out.  

 

@Beethoven You might want to put some spaces in between your sentences.  It's a little hard to read.   I am glad you came by though.

[Gwydden]

I think it's laziness myself.  It's really easy to fall back on the "tried and true," so you don't alienate your core audience.   The lines you quoted from me were more towards other gamers than the industry as a whole.  If anything, E3 proves that some things just aren't going to work anymore, even from within the industry itself.

 

You're not weird.  I made a post a couple of days ago talking about how the idealization of men is almost as bad as the sexualization of women.  I'll link it to you if you are curious.

But what motivation would they have not to be lazy? It's like some of the people who design games can't stop to think of their games as an art form, and try to innovate from there. And what investment has your average developer, a straight white male, in representation and/or diversity? I mean, homosexuality only got into The Sims because someone who was high in the chain of command happened to be gay. But that's the exception, not the rule.

 

I get your point. Personally I like to come up with female characters, unconventional male characters, ethnically diverse characters, simply because I don't want them all to be cardboard cutouts from one another. But most developers don't seem to have a vested interest in making their games better in the representation or even the storytelling area.

[HuldraDancer]

I really think that with some game developers they just don't think about it and not in 'women aren't worth the resources' way either it just doesn't cross their minds though this assumption (which may be 100% wrong) is based a lot of my cousin who has been working on a game story for years now they have almost everything planned and they tell me about it constantly and one thing that I noticed that they didn't was they have only 2 females in a semi important role and one is dead (I think) and  the other character is meant to be sexy (which isn't a bad thing in and of itself since as far as I understand she's less of a fighter and more of a use your desires against you type) Now they didn't go into this thinking 'lets make the least amount of females as possible'. It was just how things ended up. Doesn't make it less of a problem though but I really think that it's less of being lazy or wanting to just keep the 'dudebro' (I hate using that term) gamers into their games and more of an oversight a 'whoops yeah I was so busy with everything else I didn't think about how this might look or isolate some consumers' At least I hope that's all it is. All this said I could be horribly off the mark or making no sense at all so I apologize for either and/or both.