9318 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

Well since there seems to be jokes about this stuff, just in case:

 

If someone feels that people can't say "I don't like that art design" they probably shouldn't bother with the thread.

[Lady Nuggins]

I'm not sure which one of you it is (I'm assuming it is), but there was an interesting tumblr post that I saw some coworkers retweet.  The person's twitter (Ellorgast) points out the frustration that everyone jumped on other studios for lack of women, but nothing real came out of our reveal.

 

Negative news does seem to sell over positive news it seems.  And during E3 it was quite the hot topic, but how would we go about encouraging more proliferation of "this is the way we want" type of news?  I'll admit the obvious benefits BioWare would have if you went off and campaigned for more exposure for us for doing this, but at the same time in general how do we promote and encourage more positive waves (regardless of what sort of waves we happen to be casting).

 

Oh, that was me!  

 

I've been talking with DragonRacer about this quite a bit this week.  Like she said, she emailed all of those game sites and heard nothing.  While that Tumblr post I wrote has gotten lots of attention thanks to some devs retweeting links to it, I suspect most people who see it are already Bioware fans.  It's just preaching to the choir.  

 

When E3 was happening I scoured the news for mentions of Bioware.  After the cupcakes I scoured the news again.  Just... nothing.  Like people said, we never did the cupcake sending for attention, but in retrospect it was a really good way for all those news sites and bloggers to talk about a GOOD portrayal of women at E3.  I know that negative news sells, but they could spin it as a contrast to all the ones that were a problem.  Show that they really do have no excuse.  Show that the industry as a whole is not a lost cause.  Something.  

 

I'm imagining a female gamer like me who doesn't follow these events closely, but kept hearing all these negative things about the portrayal of women at E3.  It would make me feel pretty down.  Like there is no hope for the big game companies to ever treat me like I matter as much as their male fans.  That would be a good time to hear "actually, one company got it right!"

 

I don't know how to make people pay attention to this.  But I think it's important.  The mentality in the industry right now is that women don't sell.  It's considered risky to put women in the marketing.  If nobody takes note when a company does take that risk, where is the incentive for them to continue to take that risk?  Why bother, if they'd get more attention for doing the same old thing?

 

Brass, you also left out that one of their dev's is female too, and think or believe she was the one that said they wont and it was too much work.  A female said this about a female. If I remember it correctly, I may have it wrong, but there is a female in their dev team, not just writing I think. I have to go back and check.

 

Wouldn't a woman in that position feel pressured to be "one of the guys?"  At the end of the day, she still needs to go back to the office and hold onto her job and the respect of her coworkers.  I've read so many stories from female game devs who felt unable to speak out about sexism, at the risk of not being taken seriously by their peers.  You pick your battles in a position like that.  That's not to say that she couldn't have earnestly held that opinion herself (like someone said, plenty of women have internalized misogyny), but she's speaking on behalf of her company, here, so it's hard to put too much stock in that.

 

This is why it's an industry problem, a social problem, not a problem with individual people intentionally being sexist.  I have no doubt that many of the male devs in these companies would also choose to create games that are less sexist if given the choice.  That's why we see so many more examples of great female characters in indie games.  But there are industry pressures to maintain the status quo.  It's cheaper and easier and less risky to make a game about Beardy McWhitebro who rescues Princess Damseltits than it is to deconstruct these formulas and do something better.

 

So what is the point of discussion. If no one say opposite opinion. Everyone just agree. It's not discussion its different people just repeating same opinion. And you gave great exemplar about Divinity Original sin, armour was change because some people didn't like design, what about people who liked it? Developers was forced to change it because some one didn't like it And from posts I read I get impression what every one who is warrior must be put in armour from toe to head or neck (To see character face is more important the realism). I see post and just express my different opinion. 

What would happen if someone created post asking more reviling/sexy armour,would people nicely express different opinion, person most likely would be just flamen and topic locked. Topic was created to ask more feminine armour, pure girl was just flamed as hell. And I don't say to shut up to anyone, everyone have right to say what they want. But don't act surprised if someone wants, exactly opposite you want.

 

You are basically saying that your desire to see titillation is more valid than our desire not to be objectified.  This has consistently been your position from the start.  You don't want to listen to our many reasons why we object to this, you don't even want to hear the many people who say that they are fine with titillation, just not in games where it is unnecessary.  You want to see boobs.  Fine.  We get it.  

[displayname]

The reason why there is no news about Bioware, Lady Nuggins, is because one of the core demographic of gamers in the western market feels like they have been alienated by Bioware. And the opinion of Bioware now, is one that would be considered "problematic" by tumblr terms. Kotaku and site of its ilk can post click bait all they want about E3 shenanigans. No one but the "tumblr" crowed will care. All we will do is mock and make fun of what is essentially demographic pandering that so many "tumblerites" often attribute to other developers and their products.  

 

 

Disclaimer

All use of italics and quotation is colloquial use of allegory.

[greywatch]

We've already discussed "controversy sells better than praise". There's news about Ubisoft, too, and it all seems to be focused around the alienation of the female demographic of gamers in the western market.

 

In fact, a lot of the gaming market in the west seems to be alienating a large portion of its demographic.

 

"Core demographic" is becoming increasingly meaningless. I for one will gladly make fun of any pandering to white dudes that I can easily attribute to other developers and their products.

[Lady Nuggins]

The reason why there is no news about Bioware, Lady Nuggins, is because one of the core demographic of gamers in the western market feels like they have been alienated by Bioware. And the opinion of Bioware now, is one that would be considered "problematic" by tumblr terms. Kotaku and site of its ilk can post click bait all they want about E3 shenanigans. No one but the "tumblr" crowed will care. All we will do is mock and make fun of what is essentially demographic pandering that so many "tumblerites" often attribute to other developers and their products.  

 

 

Disclaimer

All use of italics and quotation is colloquial use of allegory.

 

I'm... not sure what your point is about Tumblr.  Did you miss the part where Tumblr is reblogging my post about the cupcakes like crazy?  As of this moment, it has 1,451 notes, which isn't too bad considering I'm not at all e-famous, and most of my posts get one or two notes at best.

 

I am critical of the fact that the people who claim to care about these issues refuse to talk about incidents when companies do something right, but I'm not so sure about your mocking tone. 

[displayname]

I'm... not sure what your point is about Tumblr.  Did you miss the part where Tumblr is reblogging my post about the cupcakes like crazy?  As of this moment, it has 1,451 notes, which isn't too bad considering I'm not at all e-famous, and most of my posts get one or two notes at best.

 

I am critical of the fact that the people who claim to care about these issues refuse to talk about incidents when companies do something right, but I'm not so sure about your mocking tone. 

The reason you don't understand the point about tumbler, along with the mocking tone is because they are entirely being formed by your own opinion or perception of what I was saying. To which: there is no point towards tumblr, cupcakes, or mocking of you.

 

If you misunderstood my post, that's entirely different. 

 

"Core demographic" is becoming increasingly meaningless. I for one will gladly make fun of any pandering to white dudes that I can easily attribute to other developers and their products.

Biowares own statement of wanting the CoD demographic dictates otherwise. But I'm sure those DA2 sales won't have any related impact to DA:I. 

[Grieving Natashina]

Huh?  Did anyone catch that?  

[DragonRacer]

I'm... not sure what your point is about Tumblr.  Did you miss the part where Tumblr is reblogging my post about the cupcakes like crazy?  As of this moment, it has 1,451 notes, which isn't too bad considering I'm not at all e-famous, and most of my posts get one or two notes at best.
 
I am critical of the fact that the people who claim to care about these issues refuse to talk about incidents when companies do something right, but I'm not so sure about your mocking tone.

 
Yeah, I was a bit confused by the post, too. Like, literally wasn't sure what they meant about certain demographics and whatnot. But I have also been drinking this evening, so I can probably attribute my confusion to that.
 
The lack of news coverage has been giving me a strong desire to start a blog or something, though. A "if you won't write it, I will" sort of thing, if you will. Only thing being I've never blogged before in my life (or really followed them), so I haven't a clue where to start or how to set that up. Added to the fact that nobody knows me or gives a flying flip about me outside of a small part of the BioWare forums and my immediate circle of friends and family. And because I only have a few ideas for initial post topics.
 
But the thought is bubbling. I'd likely name it "We Have Always Been Here" or "We Have Always Gamed" and maybe focus on what it is like to be a female gamer in what's always been considered a predominantly male hobby. Inspired to that name by: We Have Always Fought

[greywatch]

Biowares own statement of wanting the CoD demographic dictates otherwise. But I'm sure those DA2 sales won't have any related impact to DA:I. 

 

And I should care....why? That has nothing to do with what I said. I was talking "pandering", not sales figures. Was I unclear? "If you misunderstood my post..." 

[Ziggy]

It happened!

 

http://www.escapistm...male-Inquisitor

[DragonRacer]

It happened!

 

http://www.escapistm...male-Inquisitor

 

Holy crap!!!!!! 

 

[Grieving Natashina]

It happened!

 

http://www.escapistm...male-Inquisitor

Awesome!  They deserve the credit.  

 

Edit: Just don't look at the comments.  I figure I would have known better by now.  <facepalm>

[DragonRacer]

The bad comments are already starting, though.

 

THIS IS WHY THIS IS IMPORTANT. GEEZ.

[Lady Nuggins]

It happened!

 

http://www.escapistm...male-Inquisitor

 

Ahh thanks for linking that!  That makes me so happy!

 

Oh lord, they quoted me. 

[displayname]

And I should care....why? That has nothing to do with what I said. I was talking "pandering", not sales figures. Was I unclear? "If you misunderstood my post..." 

Well. CoD players value gameplay over story driven content. Just as DA2 was criticized for its lack of gameplay, and poor story - which affected its sales.

 

Unless there's some other form of reference you are using for context? 

[Brass_Buckles]

It happened!

 

http://www.escapistm...male-Inquisitor

 

Awesomesauce.  Unfortunately I looked at the comments, and certain people just don't "get it."  They don't grasp that the cupcakes weren't for the Lady Inquisitor EXISTING, but rather for her being PUBLICLY REPRESENTED.  You know, as opposed to hiding her like she is a horrible thing never to be seen by the public eye.

[greywatch]

Well. CoD players value gameplay over story driven content. Just as DA2 was criticized for its lack of gameplay, and poor story - which affected its sales.

 

Unless there's some other form of reference you are using for context? 

 

I'm not sure we're even in the same book, let alone the same page. When I said "controversy sells better than praise" I was talking about news sites, as in that is the reason good things are more rare to see reported than bad things. You implied this was because the core demographic doesn't like Bioware anymore, which is not even the reason???  You talked about demographic pandering, I talked about demographic pandering.

 

You said this was on the same page as game sales, and I didn't even go there. 

[Grieving Natashina]

I'm not sure we're even in the same book, let alone the same page. When I said "controversy sells better than praise" I was talking about news sites, as in that is the reason good things are more rare to see reported than bad things. You implied this was because the core demographic doesn't like Bioware anymore, which is not even the reason???  You talked about demographic pandering, I talked about demographic pandering.

 

You said this was on the same page as game sales, and I didn't even go there. 

I would recommend to not to talk to him.  He's obviously here just to derail and start an argument.  

 

Awesomesauce.  Unfortunately I looked at the comments, and certain people just don't "get it."  They don't grasp that the cupcakes weren't for the Lady Inquisitor EXISTING, but rather for her being PUBLICLY REPRESENTED.  You know, as opposed to hiding her like she is a horrible thing never to be seen by the public eye.

The "Get over themselves" remark I thought was pretty rich.  So, a bunch of women and men sending out cupcakes did it just to make themselves feel good?  Right, because no one does any kind things anymore without it being totally in it for themselves.  

 

Daily reminder of how stupid some people on the net can be. 

[greywatch]

Fair enough. 

 

Regardless of the comments, I'm pleased someone wrote about it. The Escapist and everything!

[Mes]

It happened!

 

http://www.escapistm...male-Inquisitor

 

That is faaantaaastic!!! Go us, go Bioware, go Lady Inquisitor!!!

[Brass_Buckles]

I would recommend to not to talk to him.  He's obviously here just to derail and start an argument.  

 

The "Get over themselves" remark I thought was pretty rich.  So, a bunch of women and men sending out cupcakes did it just to make themselves feel good?  Right, because no one does any kind things anymore without it being totally in it for themselves.  

 

Daily reminder of how stupid some people on the net can be. 

 

Yeah, I... didn't grasp that.  If I wanted to be selfish and self-centered, I'd have just taken my monetary contribution to the nearest bakery and bought some cupcakes for myself.  I wouldn't have bothered sending it to Bioware, and potentially risking it being used for something else, nor would I have stayed up all night agonizing over what to put in my nice thank-you letter to BioWare.

 

No, it wasn't about me, it was about saying thank you.  And I in fact reminded myself of that several times while writing that letter, which is why mine didn't end up too personal.  Because it wasn't about me.

[Grieving Natashina]

Fair enough. 

 

Regardless of the comments, I'm pleased someone wrote about it. The Escapist and everything!

BioWare's done good here, and I'm glad to see that gaming "news" sites are picking it up.  I put news in quotes, because I've seen some big time failures of journalism regarding Inquisition since January.

 

That is faaantaaastic!!! Go us, go Bioware, go Lady Inquisitor!!!

Makes me a little sad that I couldn't pitch in, but I was going through a serious money crunch when you guys were gathering the cash.  I was rooting for you though and if you guys ever feel like sending them more cupcakes, I'll be able to help with the cost this time.  

 

 

Yeah, I... didn't grasp that.  If I wanted to be selfish and self-centered, I'd have just taken my monetary contribution to the nearest bakery and bought some cupcakes for myself.  I wouldn't have bothered sending it to Bioware, and potentially risking it being used for something else, nor would I have stayed up all night agonizing over what to put in my nice thank-you letter to BioWare.

 

No, it wasn't about me, it was about saying thank you.  And I in fact reminded myself of that several times while writing that letter, which is why mine didn't end up too personal.  Because it wasn't about me.

Which is why you rock!

[Mes]

 

The "Get over themselves" remark I thought was pretty rich.  So, a bunch of women and men sending out cupcakes did it just to make themselves feel good?  Right, because no one does any kind things anymore without it being totally in it for themselves.  

 

 

They're just jealous.  

 

Upset that nice things happened - wow! What a life they must live.

[aTigerslunch]

Lady Nuggins, yes, your right. I was just trying to point out some women do the same thing as men, she may have went home and cried about having to stand up for something absurd, don't know. I would love to see a change myself. So if she didn't like it, she could of stood up against it without reprimand.

 

Seeing the industry change would be nice, cause that is where it needs to be done at, I am sure several guys would like to choose differences as well, individually.

 

I am expecting several people will be surprised at how large by that week's end.

 

Wow, awesome to finally see that Bioware gets a positive treatment in news.   But, ugh, I want to tell that guy to go back and check things out a little more closely. Several games don't say or show females ARE playable. I am glad I am not on FB. He's one of those, get over yourselves type person, that's been catered to for most of the guy's life.

[The Hierophant]

Ahh thanks for linking that! That makes me so happy!

Oh lord, they quoted me.

Yaaaaaaaaaay for Lady Nuggins' treats!

Give me a hug?