9318 réponses à ce sujet

[RevilFox]

But not all of them are. The Evil Queen, one of the oldest Disney villains, is beautiful. Gaston is handsome, and he's a dick. Those are obvious lessons in not going off entirely by looks, wouldn't you say? And attractiveness is still quite subjective, especially when you try to translate it from an animated setting. My point is that heroes look normal and taken care of, while villains look sleazy.

 

Again, I've never met any "ugly" people, so there's no conditioning to be had there. I think the lesson here is not "beautiful is good" but "good is beautiful", and that if you slap beauty into a villain, you're only adding extra vain to their evilness.

While it is true that not all of them are ugly or unattractive, it's also true that the vast majority of them are.

 

Captain Hook

Cruella de Vil

Claude Frollo

Hades

Hopper

The Horned King, Jafar

Lady Tremaine

Madame Medusa

Queen Grimhilde (who is not herself unattractive, but does disguise herself as an ugly old women when she actively tries to kill Snow White)

Peg Leg Pete

Governor Ratcliffe

Professor Ratigan

Scar

Shan Yu

Stromboli

Ursula

 

Compared to the list of attractive to gorgeous Disney villains

 

Gaston

Maleficent

Queen Grimhilde (when not disguised as an ugly old woman)

 

You may also note that a good chunk of the "ugly" list are also fat, which is a separate, but no less troubling, issue.

[Gwydden]

It is indeed problematic but, unfortunately, it fits reality. Attractive people have a far easier time than unattractive ones. Being not attractive myself, I certainly wish things were different, however, it does happen that way in real life. It's been happening for thousands of years too, so Disney isn't to blame, beyond propagating what is already happening inside our brains.

No offense, but I don't believe thinking along those lines is healthy. I certainly don't fit any male ideal of beauty, but since beauty is subjective I feel free to consider myself handsome and not care about other people disagreeing.

[RevilFox]

It is indeed problematic but, unfortunately, it fits reality. Attractive people have a far easier time than unattractive ones. Being not attractive myself, I certainly wish things were different, however, it does happen that way in real life. It's been happening for thousands of years too, so Disney isn't to blame, beyond propagating what is already happening inside our brains.

I don't know that I understand what you're trying to say. Are you arguing that in reality ugly people are far more likely to be evil, or bad, people?

[Gwydden]

While it is true that not all of them are ugly or unattractive, it's also true that the vast majority of them are.

I don't consider any of them "ugly". They are made to look "unattractive", but that isn't so much a matter of their actual physique as much as their facial expressions, mannerisms, style of dress, personal hygiene, body care, and so on. If I'm walking down a potentially dangerous street, I will certainly feel more distrust of the young man with the tattoos, ragged clothes, piercings and awful haircut than the elderly, well-dressed gentleman.

[RevilFox]

I don't consider any of them "ugly". They are made to look "unattractive", but that isn't so much a matter of their actual physique as much as their facial expressions, mannerisms, style of dress, personal hygiene, body care, and so on. If I'm walking down a potentially dangerous street, I will certainly feel more distrust of the young man with the tattoos, ragged clothes, piercings and awful haircut than the elderly, well-dressed gentleman.

Now I'm curious, what WOULD You consider "ugly"?

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I don't know that I understand what you're trying to say. Are you arguing that in reality ugly people are far more likely to be evil, or bad, people?

 

No no, I was talking about perception of unattractive people, not their reality.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I don't know that I understand what you're trying to say. Are you arguing that in reality ugly people are far more likely to be evil, or bad, people?

 

 

Thanks for your concern, it I'm fine. I"m 50 and married, and care not what other people think of me

[Gwydden]

Now I'm curious, what WOULD You consider "ugly"?

Quasimodo. Who, last I checked, is not a villain.

[RevilFox]

It is indeed problematic but, unfortunately, it fits reality. Attractive people have a far easier time than unattractive ones. Being not attractive myself, I certainly wish things were different, however, it does happen that way in real life. It's been happening for thousands of years too, so Disney isn't to blame, beyond propagating what is already happening inside our brains.

 

 

No no, I was talking about perception of unattractive people, not their reality.

 

 

Thanks for your concern, it I'm fine. I"m 50 and married, and care not what other people think of me

 

Okay, I'm honestly baffled by the entirety of your argument, or even what your argument is, then.

[Lady Nuggins]

Good point. As far as we know, sexual dimorphism is still at play here, though, so there's really no reason to expect a female who is as muscular as Bull.

 

"Females are larger than males in the majority of animal species, and not infrequently they are very much larger. The size difference in humans is modest, at best, when compared to many other animal species, and although we conform to the mammal-bird pattern of males being the larger sex, this is clearly the exception rather than rule. Most animal males are small and quick rather than large and robust, and females are often giants by comparison."

- http://www.huffingto..._b_3177995.html

 

But I think you're missing my point.  I'm not saying that I want a female character exactly like Iron Bull, although that would be great.  I'm saying that Iron Bull is an example of a more extreme physical appearance than any female character has.  He is unquestionably inhuman, he is extensively scarred, he's missing an eye.  He looks unusual even for a qunari.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Okay, I'm honestly baffled by the entirety of your argument, or even what your argument is, then.

 

http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/106187

 

You appear to be reading a response to another poster on some other topic than the one you are discussing and applying it to your topic. Does the above link mean nothing to your topic of discussion? Then it probably wasn't directed at you.

 

@Lady Nuggin

 

Agreed, and his head looks too small for his body. heh (Am I the only one who thinks this?)

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Thanks for your concern, it I'm fine. I"m 50 and married, and care not what other people think of me

Ah I see the confusion, I quoted the wrong person. my apologies @RevilFox

[Gwydden]

"Females are larger than males in the majority of animal species, and not infrequently they are very much larger. The size difference in humans is modest, at best, when compared to many other animal species, and although we conform to the mammal-bird pattern of males being the larger sex, this is clearly the exception rather than rule. Most animal males are small and quick rather than large and robust, and females are often giants by comparison."
- http://www.huffingto..._b_3177995.html

But I think you're missing my point. I'm not saying that I want a female character exactly like Iron Bull, although that would be great. I'm saying that Iron Bull is an example of a more extreme physical appearance than any female character has. He is unquestionably inhuman, he is extensively scarred, he's missing an eye. He looks unusual even for a qunari.

Oh, sure. Have you seen those angler fish? I was talking specifically about human sexual dimorphism.

[Lady Nuggins]

Oh, sure. Have you seen those angler fish? I was talking specifically about human sexual dimorphism.

 

And Iron Bull isn't human. 

[Nefla]

Even if the women of Thedas' races are always less broad and muscular, that wouldn't prevent a female character from having an extreme appearance. She could be obese or extensively and unappealingly tattooed, extremely scarred (like The Hound or The Phantom of the Opera, not a tiny nick) if a dwarf or Qunari she might not be as burly as Iron bull but she could still be very burly compared to the average man or woman. She could have features other than large eyes, perfect button nose, full lips, slim hourglass, etc...I gotta go back to work now bye.

[themikefest]

I guess I'm the only that found Meredith very attractive. She may of been the villain, but she was far from being ugly. 

[Mes]

Even if the women of Thedas' races are always less broad and muscular, that wouldn't prevent a female character from having an extreme appearance. She could be obese or extensively and unappealingly tattooed, extremely scarred (like The Hound or The Phantom of the Opera, not a tiny nick) if a dwarf or Qunari she might not be as burly as Iron bull but she could still be very burly compared to the average man or woman. She could have features other than large eyes, perfect button nose, full lips, slim hourglass, etc...I gotta go back to work now bye.

 

Work on a weekend?? Blasphemy!

 

I completely agree with your point. What's stopping someone from creating ONE physically extreme or shocking female character. You could create a whole backstory relating to her appearance. Even if you want to argue that females of a certain species are on average smaller than the males, that doesn't mean that there can't be a few who are outside of the "norm."

 

I think it just comes down to women in games of an ugly or threatening appearance to still be considered some kind of risk. 

[Mes]

The two female companions in Shadowrun Returns: Dragonfall come to mind.  Glory has a pretty face, but also two antique cyberarms that make her look half machine. Eiger is a troll. Not really ugly, but she's got tusks and an almost permanent scowl.

 

No potbellies though.

 

http://harebrained-s...run/dragonfall/

 

Hey those are awesome! Thanks for the link!

 

Man, I just want to see the male Qunari Inquisitor.  I am very nervous about how Bioware decided to design him.  Did they go with the Slab Bulkhead approach or with something slightly sleeker?  I'm hoping the latter.   Then again, I suppose all Qunari males are supposed to be gargantuan Oxmen. 

 

I really hope they go with something sleeker, something maybe not as distinguishable (at least at first glance) to the female Qunari. Something that makes it clear that Iron Bull is unique and not the norm.

[DragonRacer]

Hmmm, this whole talk about size and males/females in the animal kingdom reminds me very much of the spider chaos going on in my backyard right now, involving Golden Silk Orb Weaver spiders.

 

My own photo (spoilered for the arachnophobic):

 

Spoiler

^^^ You can see the smaller male at the top of the photo, BTW

 

 

I should probably read up on this, actually, because the main thing I know is their bite is non-lethal and they're non-aggressive to people. But from the observed behavior, these are some pretty intense and scary females. Not just considering they are HUGE - the males are a decent size for a spider - but also because they are territorial and appear to have similar mating dynamics to Black Widows. The larger female will kill the smaller females to gain more web territory, and will leave the dead corpse hanging in a web as if to send a message to others, (not dissimilar from sticking an enemy's head on a pike outside your castle gate). Additionally, the males seem to slap-fight their front legs when vying for a female, but the males are later found dead in the webs after copulation... I am unsure if this is because something happens to them biologically wherein they die after passing their genetic code along or if, more likely, the females dispose of them after they have served their biological purpose to her. 

 

At any rate, for some reason, whenever I am watching them outside, I feel like designing a huge female Qunari Inquisitor rogue who'll act a lot like these "Queens", as I call them (and I'm actually crazy enough that I named the largest two Flemeth and Morrigan   )

[Mes]

*snip*

 

 

Kill it with fire. 

 

Only joking - that is cool!! I'm impressed you were able to casually snap some photos from so close.

 

I would absolutely love a fantasy race to be modeled after something like that, where females are bigger, stronger, and in charge. 

[Bugsie]

 
Kill it with fire. 
 
Only joking - that is cool!! I'm impressed you were able to casually snap some photos from so close.
 
I would absolutely love a fantasy race to be modeled after something like that, where females are bigger, stronger, and in charge.

We had them in Mass Effect - They were the rachni! Aside from interacting with the queen and the mindless drones we didn't get to see much about their intelligence though. They were a spacefaring race remember!

Perhaps this is more to your tastes Mes?

Spoiler

[Mes]

We had them in Mass Effect - They were the rachni! Aside from interacting with the queen and the mindless drones we didn't get to see much about their intelligence though. They were a spacefaring race remember!

Perhaps this is more to your tastes Mes?

Spoiler

 

 

 

Mmmm yes thank you, the best spiders are the delicious ones!

 

Ahhh yes the Rachni... They were okay, but in my head I'm envisioning a humanoid species that is maybe loosely based off of some animal where females are larger and dominant. Not that a fantasy race even NEEDS to be based off of anything in reality, but I guess it's a huge thing for a lot of people? Like maybe some players wouldn't be able to accept female characters of that sort unless they could be tied to some kind of natural occurrence in real life. Meh.

[Gwydden]

"Females are larger than males in the majority of animal species, and not infrequently they are very much larger. The size difference in humans is modest, at best, when compared to many other animal species, and although we conform to the mammal-bird pattern of males being the larger sex, this is clearly the exception rather than rule. Most animal males are small and quick rather than large and robust, and females are often giants by comparison."

- http://www.huffingto..._b_3177995.html

 

But I think you're missing my point.  I'm not saying that I want a female character exactly like Iron Bull, although that would be great.  I'm saying that Iron Bull is an example of a more extreme physical appearance than any female character has.  He is unquestionably inhuman, he is extensively scarred, he's missing an eye.  He looks unusual even for a qunari.

I'm aware   So I'll reiterate my original point to avoid confusion: we have every reason to believe sexual dimorphism in qunari works just as in humans, and no reason to believe the opposite.

 

But I do see your point, and I don't mind it. A female character with a more "extreme look might be interested. I am actually reminded of the ogres in Changeling (if you ever come into that book, try and check out that section, you may find it interesting). I just disagree that all female characters so far "look the same" or are "conventionally attractive" (that phrase should be banned. Srsly). 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Mmmm yes thank you, the best spiders are the delicious ones!

 

Ahhh yes the Rachni... They were okay, but in my head I'm envisioning a humanoid species that is maybe loosely based off of some animal where females are larger and dominant. Not that a fantasy race even NEEDS to be based off of anything in reality, but I guess it's a huge thing for a lot of people? Like maybe some players wouldn't be able to accept female characters of that sort unless they could be tied to some kind of natural occurrence in real life. Meh.

Well, in ancient times the Krogan had the females as the leading gender. Even as they are now women can bend the men's ways. Just look at how quickly they stop bickering when Bakara tells them enough. 

 

Also the Salarians are led by females. 

[Allan Schumacher]

Good point. As far as we know, sexual dimorphism is still at play here, though, so there's really no reason to expect a female who is as muscular as Bull.

 

People aren't saying they want a woman that looks like Iron Bull.  They're saying that it's rare to get a woman that deviates as much from standard human beauty as Iron Bull does.  Shale was one, though wasn't romanceable.  But we're also talking about in aggregate across gaming, not just Dragon Age games.