9318 réponses à ce sujet

[Gregolian]

Goddamnit, I like to think I am a badass and not scared of anything but spiders make me wish I could run up a tree and hide with a flamethrower for a couple hours.

 

Followed by a lot of this:

 

When I realize I am not as cool as I thought.

[HuldraDancer]

 

-snip-

 

Ancestors those are adorable    and they look kind of similar to some orange spiders that are making webs in our door frames only ours are much fatter.

 

Will your qunari Inquisitor kill her mates after they server her purpose too? >> Good luck with your concept hope you can make it work for you.

[Tayah]

Goddamnit, I like to think I am a badass and not scared of anything but spiders make me wish I could run up a tree and hide with a flamethrower for a couple hours.

 

Followed by a lot of this:

 

When I realize I am not as cool as I thought.

I want a flamethrower too, and a supply of chocolate while deciding if it's safe to come down yet. 

 

And I love that pic though I never really thought I was cool and I am not shy about my dislike of spiders I've had years to get over the fact that they just creep me out and that's not changing so I'm over the embarrassment of that. These days I leave them for someone else... or if alone and desperate rely on big cans of insect spray and whatever else I need to finish them with from as far away as possible. If they enter my house that is, if they stay outside where they belong I avoid them and let them be.  

 

Note even I don't actively kill daddy long legs its the rest of them that freak me out, and most spiders in Aus are poisonous so better safe than sorry for me.

 

While it seems that the usual males are bigger than females has stayed for all races in Thedas (and ME so far as well) I think it would actually have been interesting if a race like the qunari had turned it around and given us a different dynamic to explore in that area. I agree with the others that you could still have a female character who was not the norm for her race and therefore does look different be that through size, tattoos, scarring, a combo of the above or whatever else.

[Lady Nuggins]

Hmmm, this whole talk about size and males/females in the animal kingdom reminds me very much of the spider chaos going on in my backyard right now, involving Golden Silk Orb Weaver spiders.

 

*snip*

 

At any rate, for some reason, whenever I am watching them outside, I feel like designing a huge female Qunari Inquisitor rogue who'll act a lot like these "Queens", as I call them (and I'm actually crazy enough that I named the largest two Flemeth and Morrigan   )

 

Oh they're so pretty!  I love spiders, but very few spiders are poisonous in my region, so I can afford to love them.  Australians, I don't know how you are still alive.

 

A Spider Queen qunari rogue sounds delightful! 

 

Ahhh yes the Rachni... They were okay, but in my head I'm envisioning a humanoid species that is maybe loosely based off of some animal where females are larger and dominant. Not that a fantasy race even NEEDS to be based off of anything in reality, but I guess it's a huge thing for a lot of people? Like maybe some players wouldn't be able to accept female characters of that sort unless they could be tied to some kind of natural occurrence in real life. Meh.

 

Yes.  I don't understand the point of creating a fantasy/sci fi race, only to make it adhere to the exact same gender construction as humans.  It's unimaginative, if nothing else.  Why not a race of humanoid/arachnid people with big dominent women and smaller men?

 

 

I'm aware   So I'll reiterate my original point to avoid confusion: we have every reason to believe sexual dimorphism in qunari works just as in humans, and no reason to believe the opposite.

 

What I disagree with is the idea that it has to.  And we won't really know until we see what the male qunari Inquisitor build looks like compared to the female one, because Iron Bull is not a typical qunari. 

 

But I do see your point, and I don't mind it. A female character with a more "extreme look might be interested. I am actually reminded of the ogres in Changeling (if you ever come into that book, try and check out that section, you may find it interesting). I just disagree that all female characters so far "look the same" or are "conventionally attractive" (that phrase should be banned. Srsly). 

 

"Conventionally attractive" is a useful phrase, though, because it distinguishes between "I find this attractive to me personally" and "the average person finds this visually appealing, or at least not unappealing."  I can acknowledge that Alistair and Cullen are conventionally attractive, even though they are not my type and do nothing for me personally. 

 

Nearly all the female companions from Origins to Inquisition (except Shale and Sigrun) fall within a range that would be acceptable for a Hollywood actress or a magazine cover.  Even if you, personally, do not think they are attractive, they would be considered such by most people.  Same with every female companion in Mass Effect.  Throwing a blue or purple filter on a pretty human woman is not the same as giving her scales, mandibles, a dinosaur face, a hump, or grotesque scars. 

 

I guess I'm the only that found Meredith very attractive. She may of been the villain, but she was far from being ugly. 

 

Not at all.  If she weren't so awful, I'd find her extremely attractive.

[Lady Nuggins]

Nearly all the female companions from Origins to Inquisition (except Shale and Sigrun) fall within a range that would be acceptable for a Hollywood actress or a magazine cover. 

 

Incidentally, when I Google image searched Sigrun to remind myself how she looks, at least half of the pictures that came up were mods to make her more beautiful.   This one was the very first hit:

Spoiler

 

Maybe Bioware doesn't make unattractive female companions because they know people will immediately mod them prettier anyway.

[Nefla]

Incidentally, when I Google image searched Sigrun to remind myself how she looks, at least half of the pictures that came up were mods to make her more beautiful.   This one was the very first hit:

Spoiler

 
Maybe Bioware doesn't make unattractive female companions because they know people will immediately mod them prettier anyway.

I wish I could believe that was a joke! Though we all know people out there will mods all the female companions to make them "sexier" they take companions that look like models and mod them into porn stars complete with nipple tassels (or just naked) they even change the ethnicity of female characters /barf

[HuldraDancer]

Incidentally, when I Google image searched Sigrun to remind myself how she looks, at least half of the pictures that came up were mods to make her more beautiful.   This one was the very first hit:

Spoiler

 

Maybe Bioware doesn't make unattractive female companions because they know people will immediately mod them prettier anyway.

 

This is a joke right? Please tell me that's a joke? Sigrun is beautiful just the way she is why would you.....No no not going to go off into a tangent after all this doesn't affect my game in anyway though it does still make me a little sad to see someone do that to Sigrun my lovely adorkable Sigrun. They even got rid of her tattoos    Noooo stop it this doesn't affect my game stop whining now despite how much I want to complain about it. No stop it! Bad HuldraDancer bad! I'm just going to stop looking at this before I grow sad. Just going to look at these to make me feel better.

Spoiler

[Brass_Buckles]

I don't really agree with this. Beauty is quite subjective, and "conventionally attractive" is a virtually meaningless phrase. None of the female companions in DA has ever stood out for me as incredibly attractive, really. And I would qualify most women I know as attractive in a general sense, even if not personally appealing.

 

And as a Disney fan, I feel inclined to say your reference is rather unfair. Disney stories are very idealized fairy tales. The heroes are beautiful and the villains... well, they're usually not. When the villains are attractive, is because that's somehow relevant to the plot or theme: the Evil Queen and Gaston are "beautiful" because their vanity is what makes them into villains.

 

I think this is just common sense. Children are not very skilled at interpreting subtle underlying messages. The easiest way to let you know someone is a villain is by reflecting it in their physique (this also counts for female characters: Ursula is a classic Disney villain and she's not really the ideal of beauty) and in the magical world, the heroes are all idealized.

 

All in all, as someone who's oldest memories are of spending all day watching Disney films, I've always considered the "princesses" much more interesting, heroic and relatable than their male counterparts. Belle is the only decent person in the entire movie, Ariel saves Eric life early in her movie, Nala kicks entitled Simba's ass repeatedly, and in Frozen all men are useless morons, greedy merchants, or ruthless backstabbers 

 

This is so problematic that I had to address it.  You're saying, basically, that it is a-okay by you to teach children that because people are ugly or fat, they are objectively BAD.  What kind of a thing is that to teach to people?  It's part of the reason that women are often dismissed if they aren't beautiful, slim, and fit in with conventional media-driven standards of beauty.  You're not pretty?  You're not worth my time... That's the message it sends.  But what about kids who are born with congenital defects, and don't fit within that standard of beauty?  They could be wonderful people, and yet... it's okay to teach other kids that they are bad because they aren't pretty.

 

Did you know that when this trope originated in fairy tales, fairy tales were actually meant for adults...?  Children learn this concept because we teach it to them.  Maybe if we didn't teach them that ugly is bad, they wouldn't pick on kids who don't fit a certain standard of beauty.

 

The point of teaching children through stories should be to teach them to become more sophisticated in their thinking.  I don't think it's good to perpetually present kids with ugly villains.  I'd argue the same thing for adults who play M-rated games.  Likewise I don't think we should always see pretty villains either.  Anyone can be a bad person, and anyone can be a good person.  As Solas would say, it's more complicated than that.

 

So chalk me up as someone who wishes Disney would vary that formula more.

 

 

Mmmm yes thank you, the best spiders are the delicious ones!

 

Ahhh yes the Rachni... They were okay, but in my head I'm envisioning a humanoid species that is maybe loosely based off of some animal where females are larger and dominant. Not that a fantasy race even NEEDS to be based off of anything in reality, but I guess it's a huge thing for a lot of people? Like maybe some players wouldn't be able to accept female characters of that sort unless they could be tied to some kind of natural occurrence in real life. Meh.

 

Natural occurrence... Oh you mean like owls, hawks, eagles, falcons... females are usually about 1/3 larger than the male--the Harris's Hawk even has a lifestyle where females have a harem of smaller males.  Or hyenas, where the females are larger and dominant.  Or, if you don't want the "reverse sexual dimorphism," then how about elephants, where females are in charge but smaller?  Same goes for killer whales, which are led by matriarchs like elephants are, even though the males are considerably larger (and unlike elephants, I'm pretty sure the male killer whale stays in the pod with the females).

[Ser Pounce A Lot_]

This is a joke right? Please tell me that's a joke? Sigrun is beautiful just the way she is why would you.....No no not going to go off into a tangent after all this doesn't affect my game in anyway though it does still make me a little sad to see someone do that to Sigrun my lovely adorkable Sigrun. They even got rid of her tattoos    Noooo stop it this doesn't affect my game stop whining now despite how much I want to complain about it. No stop it! Bad HuldraDancer bad! I'm just going to stop looking at this before I grow sad. Just going to look at these to make me feel better.

Spoiler

 

 

I wish I could believe that was a joke! Though we all know people out there will mods all the female companions to make them "sexier" they take companions that look like models and mod them into porn stars complete with nipple tassels (or just naked) they even change the ethnicity of female characters /barf

 

 

Incidentally, when I Google image searched Sigrun to remind myself how she looks, at least half of the pictures that came up were mods to make her more beautiful.   This one was the very first hit:

Spoiler

 

Maybe Bioware doesn't make unattractive female companions because they know people will immediately mod them prettier anyway.

 

I don't know why this bothers you people so much. I've seen people mod Zevran, Alistair, Fenris, etc to make them look better/more appealing.

 

They're just mods, used on fictional characters. Not that big of a deal.

[Lady Nuggins]

I don't know why this bothers you people so much. I've seen people mod Zevran, Alistair, Fenris, etc to make them look better/more appealing.

 

They're just mods, used on fictional characters. Not that big of a deal.

 

I was specifically objecting to the fact that modded pictures are coming up before actual pictures of Sigrun, and with more frequency.  When I search for those three, only one modded version comes up on the first page for Zevran and Alistair each, and none at all for Fenris.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I was specifically objecting to the fact that modded pictures are coming up before actual pictures of Sigrun, and with more frequency.  When I search for those three, only one modded version comes up on the first page for Zevran and Alistair each, and none at all for Fenris.

Perhaps it depends on search history. I just looked up Sigrun and of 100 images maybe only 10 or so were mods, all after a bunch of actual pictures of her. 

[HuldraDancer]

Just figured out who I would like my female qunari to look like, if possible I'd like to get her design somewhat close to Demona (hopefully hornless is an option) 

 

Spoiler

 

If I can't go hornless I'd like to try fro some Desdemona type horns

Spoiler

 

Or make two that look like them both the more I look at these ladies the harder it is to pick one to base my female qunari off of ^^;

[Wulfram]

That's not actually a mod, just fan art.

[RevilFox]

This is so problematic that I had to address it.  You're saying, basically, that it is a-okay by you to teach children that because people are ugly or fat, they are objectively BAD.  What kind of a thing is that to teach to people?  It's part of the reason that women are often dismissed if they aren't beautiful, slim, and fit in with conventional media-driven standards of beauty.  You're not pretty?  You're not worth my time... That's the message it sends.  But what about kids who are born with congenital defects, and don't fit within that standard of beauty?  They could be wonderful people, and yet... it's okay to teach other kids that they are bad because they aren't pretty.

 

Did you know that when this trope originated in fairy tales, fairy tales were actually meant for adults...?  Children learn this concept because we teach it to them.  Maybe if we didn't teach them that ugly is bad, they wouldn't pick on kids who don't fit a certain standard of beauty.

 

The point of teaching children through stories should be to teach them to become more sophisticated in their thinking.  I don't think it's good to perpetually present kids with ugly villains.  I'd argue the same thing for adults who play M-rated games.  Likewise I don't think we should always see pretty villains either.  Anyone can be a bad person, and anyone can be a good person.  As Solas would say, it's more complicated than that.

 

So chalk me up as someone who wishes Disney would vary that formula more.

The problem with this argument, and the reason I stopped making it to this person, is that they apparently do not consider ANY Disney villains to be "ugly". When I asked who they DO consider "ugly" they responded with, "Quasimodo, and, last I checked, he wasn't exactly a villain". 

 

To the person who asked for the phrase "conventionally attractive" to be banned...this is a pretty good example of why we need phrases like that.

[aTigerslunch]

I dont mind spiders. I do kill them when they get too big otherwise I tend to leave them alone. They are best fly killers around.    I killed those under the old bed I had cause they bit me.

 

The best spider story I can think of right now from my own experience.  I was sitting on the living room floor watching tv. I noticed my dog staring at something, I looked. A brown spider (about an inch long, half an inch wide) was running at me. I grabbed my book next to me and squished it. Before I did, heard it hiss as the book was over it.

 

Horse talk earlier, I had a rodeo quarter-horse. I kept him nursed to full health, massaging his legs from arthritis and such. He lived little longer than should of, cause I spent a year in Korea away from him and he was really sickened. I had plans to move him with me when stateside. But he saw me as I returned, was going to do what I did before to him. When I got into my next post, he died. Vet's told my friend they wasn't sure how he was alive. It's cause he held on to see me once more. Cause of this I couldn't bear to own another horse, especially while serving in the military at the time.

 

I find Meredith attractive as well.  Wynne's explanation of being fit is cause she moves around a lot. (My grandmother would walk everywhere instead of drive. She was pretty healthy as well cause of it.)

 

Sigrun is beautiful with those tattoos and the way she looks in Awakening, to have her changed is disheartening. I found Isabella going white and blonde disheartening as well. I know its their mods, not in my game's ever. I would love to argue against it but I can't as its not part of my own games. I am just glad Inquisition wouldn't be moddable right away.

 

Ugly Disney Villian,  Heres a link for ugly hero and beautiful villians

 

http://tvtropes.org/...dLookingVillain

 

Ugly Disney Villian pictures?!   uh.. I find all of these except DeVille not ugly..

 

http://www.bing.com/...lians&FORM=IGRE

 

There is one picture of an old lady who comes from Spirited Away a bit ugly but she is old aged so I cant really classify her till I get up to that point in age myself. Beauty is subjective. I could focus on her bone structure, deage her in my mind but would take a few to study facial bone structure to see what she would appear younger. I can and do the aging within seconds of looking at someone's face, takes time to reverse.  So beauty to me is.... well, was she attractive to me after I saw her aged in my mind by age 60 or not. It's normal to me. I age everyone, so I cant look at how the body appears for anyone, I have to go by personality. (the only way for me to turn it off is by making sure I only look at someone for a second then look away, look back then look away, reason my eyes dart everywhere as someone asked me once about my eye movement.)

[Bugsie]

To me, a lot of evil characters are ugly because their actions or intent are ugly. Prince Hans from Frozen for example is conventionally handsome, but when his true intentions become known... And yeah that might fit a trope.

That is fan art of Sigrun? Doesn't even look like it would come from a Dragon Age game!

I take note of older characters in games because, to be frank, I am no spring chicken!

[aTigerslunch]

Well, I have an update that few might be interested.

 

Last night did another Champions mission (Hero Systems games), it entailed going to a very holy location. An angel guards the location for special reasons. One of the players asked, Why is there a lesbian catgirl here? She's a lesbian, she shouldn't be here. Responses on that by the others told him (a muslim hero), she (the one I play) shows respect, and honors more than he does. In fact, pointing out his words and actions would had him or should have had him squashed by showing disrespect to them (angels
). He backed off. 

 

I thought it was an interesting scene to share. She is situationally related to this thread, when certain things prove to show up. Everyone is respecting her.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

To me, a lot of evil characters are ugly because their actions or intent are ugly. Prince Hans from Frozen for example is conventionally handsome, but when his true intentions become known... And yeah that might fit a trope.

That is fan art of Sigrun? Doesn't even look like it would come from a Dragon Age game!

I take note of older characters in games because, to be frank, I am no spring chicken!

aw poor tj

[Brass_Buckles]

The problem with this argument, and the reason I stopped making it to this person, is that they apparently do not consider ANY Disney villains to be "ugly". When I asked who they DO consider "ugly" they responded with, "Quasimodo, and, last I checked, he wasn't exactly a villain". 

 

To the person who asked for the phrase "conventionally attractive" to be banned...this is a pretty good example of why we need phrases like that.

 

If they don't see that the characters are not attractive by modern-day conventional beauty standards, then they wouldn't be able to say out that this is a good way for kids to know the difference between good and evil, because there'd be no means of comparing people who are all attractive in terms of good vs. evil.

 

So the Pretty is Good trope is still problematic.  Especially so in terms of women, where we're taught our entire lives that beauty is our only value--not our intelligence, not how hard we work or how good our advice is or really anything that makes us individuals.  Other people will actually dismiss us entirely if we aren't pretty enough--especially men--even in nonromantic contexts.  The Pretty is Good, Ugly is Bad trope is part of the problem, though not where it originated and certainly not the entire problem.

 

So I am personally glad we've got a bit more varied cast--I agree, the women could be varied more, just as the men were, but they do look more different from one another than past characters did, at least.

[HuldraDancer]

This may be a bit off topic but something I'd like to chime in on about the pretty women thing in kids movies, very recently I was watching an older (at least I'm assuming it was) movie where I at first thought I was going to really enjoy it despite the shoddy translation because the first time you see the female lead she is reading studying medicine if I recall correctly and seemed to be very intelligent so I thought she was going to be the focus but no the movie switched over the the male lead who had no real standing out traits that I remember about him other than he wanted to be a firefighter, the times they do cut back the female lead however she is still being stubborn and keeping her own opinions and wanting to focus on things she enjoys like art and studying UNTIL she sees the male lead for all of five seconds and decides she's in love for most of the movie after that you don't see her again until she needs to be saved by the male lead. It was a very disappointing experience for me especially when they she started out looking like such an interesting person.

[Ziggy]

Someone posted this a while back (I forget who) regarding the lack of variation in the depiction of female 'beauty' in disney movies and I thought it was quite good:

 

http://turbomun.tumb...d-other-stories

 

Really shows how they seem to have one definition of female beauty, while villains and even men can be quite varied.

While it focuses on disney movies, the same theme is seen pretty much everywhere in media and it can have a devastating effect as women are so often given the message that their beauty is their most important asset.

See the moving speech Lupita Nyong'o made on the effect it had on her growing up below for example.

 

Spoiler

 

[aTigerslunch]

That sounds like an awful movie. I may not want to watch it then.  

 

My dad expected us to live the way we would want to. My sisters was included on being grown up to live way they want. One thing my dad thought would happen was the middle child would become a lawyer. Its the way she was and seemed to be heading to me as well. But she didn't, she became a house wife, and she is a supervisor at a factory.

[themikefest]

Isn't beauty in the eye of the beholder?  I may find he/she attractive and someone may find he/she ugly.

[Rosey]

Isn't beauty in the eye of the beholder?  I may find he/she attractive and someone may find he/she ugly.

 

Yes.

 

The point of the topic though, is that often times there is a wide variety of differences in male characters appearances, and a much-less-wide variety (or in some case none at all) in female characters.

 

What we tend to see as  "conventionally attractive" in male characters is a much larger discrepancy. Male characters can be big, they can be small, they can be bald or have lots of hair everywhere, they can be muscled or lean, they can even be fat. They can be scarred to the void or sport a nose that looks like it was broken ten thousand times... all of those things are conventionally attractive.

 

But in female characters, what's considered "conventionally attractive" is nearly the absence of differences. They all have nice figures (usually with soft lines or lean builds), if they have any scars they're implemented in a way that enhance their beauty rather then detract from it. There is little to no hair outside of what's upon their heads, and in the vast majority of cases that hair is long and flowing (or has the capability to be). They're almost NEVER taller then males they're surrounded by. And if they are, there's always going to be one male who IS taller, even if just by inches. Their noses nearly never sport that "I like to get punched in the face" look.

 

That's WHY characters like Sigrun, Aveline, and Shale are so welcomed by female(and quite a few male) players -- they're outside the box of what the general populous believes is attractive. Sigrun is THE CUTEST THING IN THE UNIVERSE, but only becomes that once you've had 1/5th of a second to talk to her. She's cute because of who she is, not because she's female. Aveline isn't conventionally attractive, but WHO SHE IS makes her beautiful beyond the scope of what's "conventional".

 

 

As someone else pointed out, there are a LOT of male characters who work this angle too -- Alistair, Zevran, Anders, Fenris, and Cullen to name a few, who you go "Well aren't they pretty!" before they open their mouths..... but in that vein, there's also Oghren, Sten, Nathaniel, Loghain, Varric, Iron Bull, and Blackwall who are so far outside of that same box. Yet there are legions of players who find all of the second group attractive. Not because they are attractive conventionally, but because we've been given (or who can't wait to be given) that 1/5th of a second to know who they are.

 

and I've rambled a bit.

 

My point is no, you're not wrong. Everyone finds different things attractive. It's when we're given no option to find out if we like someone because female = pretty so pretty = you should like, that we get frustrated. We love that our males don't consistently fall into that trope, and we would really like our females to not consistently fall into it either.

 

 

edit for clarity

[Lady Nuggins]

So I am personally glad we've got a bit more varied cast--I agree, the women could be varied more, just as the men were, but they do look more different from one another than past characters did, at least.

 

I agree, and I don't want to forget how much I appreciate the female designs they have done for DA:I.  Vivienne, in particular, is a brave and interesting design.

 

 

*snip*

 

Thank you for explaining it so clearly!  This is essentially what I've been trying to say.

 

Isn't beauty in the eye of the beholder?  I may find he/she attractive and someone may find he/she ugly.

 

If beauty is always only 100% subjective (and viewed that way by the artists), then why do they not take more risks in their female character designs?  Beauty is subjective, but the intent to make a character attractive makes a difference in how that character is designed.  When attraction is not the first priority, there is more room to do something different.

 

It is true, for instance, that tons of people find Sigrun attractive just the way that she is.  But it says something that we've only ever had one female dwarf party member, and she was not a romance option and has never made an appearance in any other game.  The message seems to be that "we don't think anybody wants to look at a short, stalky female, especially not one with tattoos all over her face."

 

Someone posted this a while back (I forget who) regarding the lack of variation in the depiction of female 'beauty' in disney movies and I thought it was quite good:

 

http://turbomun.tumb...d-other-stories

 

 

This is great, and I really encourage everyone to read the entire thing, because this is extremely relevant to the discussion.  The most important part, I think, is this:

 

Basically what I’m getting at is: do I think it’s terrible that many animated women don’t have human-sized waists? No, I don’t. Animated characters aren’t supposed to look like real humans, that’s sort of the point. If you want them to look exactly like real people, you go make a live-action movie instead.

 

But do I find it problematic that Disney’s “beautiful” characters are designed with the same basic features, over and over again, to the point where they’re becoming so homogenous that their faces and bodies are completely identical?

 

Yes. Absolutely. Because that’s more than just an aesthetic concern. Disney is a big reflection of our societal norms, so it’s frankly disturbing that they’re saying that this is what beauty looks like — not because all these girls have an unrealistic body type, but because they all look the same. Because what they’re communicating, in a subtle and subconscious way, is that there’s only one way to look good, and that’s simply not true.

 

Which I think is the crux of the issue.  It's not about what you or I find attractive, it's about what artists and game devs and Hollywood think we find attractive.  It's about how they narrow that definition and refuse to take any risks or show any other kind of beauty than what is already out there in the magazines.