9318 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

Ah, that has happened, though!  There is a trailer voiced by Alix Wilton Regan, and now a few of the gameplay trailers/demos with a female qunari.  This thread was first created before we got any of that.   Now it's more of a place to discuss the marketing and portrayal of women in DAI.

 

I'm excited if there is a trans character in the game, but I think it's best to keep the speculation about who it is to a minimum.  I find those discussions always cross into problematic zones, i.e. "she's probably trans because her face is kind of manly."  Even when the intent is that we hope a character is trans, it often relies on offensive stereotypes and that's not good for anyone.

 

Ehm, that struck me more as a VA interview similar to the one with Claudia Black a while back spliced with an already existing gameplay trailer. 

 

I'd also seriously question the notion that that thing qualifies as a woman. I was thinking more of this horrifying abomination to nerds known as the attractive woman. 

 

[aTigerslunch]

At least she is decently dressed, I would consider her attitude/personality more than appearance.

[Nefla]

What's wrong with Zelda?

[Allan Schumacher]

Yeah, that's a little troubling... since scientifically speaking, humans cannot be 'hermaphrodites'. Also, I wonder what she's referring to... did people give her sh*t about the transgender line in the video? Cuz... intersex and transgender are two totally different things too.

 

Probably a degree of ignorance since, until reading your post, I was also unaware.

 

EDIT: And yes, some were speaking ill of her for the end of the video.

[AresKeith]

What's wrong with Zelda?

 

^^ This

 

Zelda >>> Peach 

[aTigerslunch]

Nothing is wrong with Zelda herself.

[JadePrince]

Probably a degree of ignorance since, until reading your post, I was also unaware.

 

EDIT: And yes, some were speaking ill of her for the end of the video.

 

Ignorance is okay. I don't blame people for not knowing things, only if they insist on continuing to do and say poopy things after they'd been made aware of their mistakes.

 

As for your edit: Sigh. Well, if nothing else, that sort of behavior proves exactly why it's so important for companies like Bioware to be making inclusive games. The more 'normalized' (as in, commonly included) we can make LGBT content, the less and less that sort of nastiness will be tolerated by the rest of society. Media is powerful! I'm glad that Bioware is harnessing that power for good.

[Han Shot First]

You guys and gals tilting at windmills again?

 

I find it quite comical that some are offended by a statement that was meant to voice support for inclusivity. So she didn't use the word hermaphrodite appropriately. Who cares? Stop looking to find offense where none was intended.

[JadePrince]

You guys and gals tilting at windmills again?

 

I find it quite comical that some are offended by a statement that was meant to voice support for inclusivity. So she didn't use the word hermaphrodite appropriately. Who cares? Stop looking to find offense where none was intended.

 

No one here is freaking out or even saying we're offended. We're all having a calm, civil conversation. We mentioned it because we feel it's important to educate people on the correct terminology. That's all.

[oceanicsurvivor]

You guys and gals tilting at windmills again?

 

I find it quite comical that some are offended by a statement that was meant to voice support for inclusivity. So she didn't use the word hermaphrodite appropriately. Who cares? Stop looking to find offense where none was intended.

 

Offense doesn't have to be intended for a comment to be offensive, perpetuate negative stereotypes, or generally be harmful to the very people one was trying to help. BUT no one here got angry, they simply pointed out a problem with what had been said. Overall, the last page and a half have been largely supportive and grateful for what Alix said- or at the very least, for the underlying intent behind her message, even if her wording was poor.

 

Trans* people and any other group who faces day to day harassment shouldn't have to shut up when allies say the wrong thing. I'm not an advocate for assuming ill intent, however if someone legitimately cares about these issues and the people who are affected by them, then they should be fine with bettering themselves and being corrected when they have spoken incorrectly.

[Samahl]

You guys and gals tilting at windmills again?

 

I find it quite comical that some are offended by a statement that was meant to voice support for inclusivity. So she didn't use the word hermaphrodite appropriately. Who cares? Stop looking to find offense where none was intended.

 

I think she used the word out of ignorance, not malice. That doesn't change the fact that it was the wrong word. Stop reading emotions into my posts where none exist.

[aTigerslunch]

I still believe she may not of known, as myself didn't know till recently that term was existent. I will try my best to say it right, but been using one term for so long may slip up. Reasoning I don't fault Alix myself.

[teenparty]

Not all trans people are dysphoric

I certainly hope not. That would be so sad.

[Lady Nuggins]

Ehm, that struck me more as a VA interview similar to the one with Claudia Black a while back spliced with an already existing gameplay trailer. 

 

I'd also seriously question the notion that that thing qualifies as a woman. I was thinking more of this horrifying abomination to nerds known as the attractive woman. 

 

I'm talking about the trailer voiced by her.

 

 

"That thing"?  Just because a woman is large and happens to have horns does not make her any less a woman. 

[Brass_Buckles]

People always have some argument against representation because they feel threatened that giving more rights or representation to others is somehow going to take away something for them. They don't even get the fact that in most instances what is 'given' to others would never be directed towards them in the first place.

 

Well, in terms of marketing, the truth is, marketing more inclusively WILL mean giving less marketing to just straight white males.  The reason goes back to the candy dish analogy we had in the past.

 

There's only one dish full of candy, there can't be any more candy than that.  In the past, straight white males got the entire dish, or almost the entire dish.  Now Mom and Dad (BioWare) say little Jimmy and Johnny have to share with their sisters and their friends (women, people of color, LGBT).  Little Jimmy and Johnny are not taking that well because they're used to having ALL the candy, but it's only because they aren't getting all of the candy that everyone else can have a little of that candy too.  You can say little Jane and Jill and Joe and Bob and Mark and Ellie should just go get their own candy, but they don't control the candy.  Mom and Dad decide when to buy candy and how much to buy (marketing has a limited budget), so the candy that is there is all the candy there is.  If Mom and Dad do not make Jimmy and Johnny share that candy, no one else will get any of it.

 

Long story short, one group getting a bit less marketing so that the other groups can get ANY marketing is not necessarily a bad thing--especially since we saw at E3 that Jimmy and Johnny are still by far getting most of the marketing candy.

[Bugsie]

Yeah I get that, only so many pieces of pie, so many seats at the front of the bus etc etc. I guess I might make an argument for general representation in my argument, even if we got so called proportional representation (the mythical 1 in 5) that would still likely be deemed by some as 'too much representation' and that's my problem with marketing and representation in games overall. Your candy analogy suits that nicely.

And wait... 'That thing' reference the previous poster made (which I didn't get before) is about the female qunari inquisitor? O.o?

Also, I like Zelda's look and outfit...

[aTigerslunch]

I didn't realize she referred to the Qunari female as "that thing" isn't a woman.  Interesting.......  so, a female Krogan isn't a woman, a female Turian isn't a woman, which could lead to saying dwarven, and elven females are not women either. Just human females are women?  Curious to the thinking, cause that is what I read from those words.

[The Antagonist]

Man=male human woman=female human

[Nefla]

I didn't realize she referred to the Qunari female as "that thing" isn't a woman.  Interesting.......  so, a female Krogan isn't a woman, a female Turian isn't a woman, which could lead to saying dwarven, and elven females are not women either. Just human females are women?  Curious to the thinking, cause that is what I read from those words.

I think that person decided the female Qunari was a "thing" and not a woman because they found her ugly or masculine. Which means ugly or big or muscular women in real life are "things" too?

[aTigerslunch]

Sorry codenamesource, if an alien male and female shows up, I would refer to man and woman of that race. Less they have their own specific words to use.

 

Dictionary online does state adult male human then particular type of man and finally third option person: a person, regardless of sex or age

 

Which person does equal human beings (planet Earth only has humans, no dwarf, elf, alien of anything yet. So, only time to tell if that could change. Not in my lifetime but I wont be a technical freak and still call them a person/man/woman.

 

Now woman however does state  female adult, women as a group and/or feminity: feminine qualities or feelings   Thus calling an alien woman works by definition and no change necessary

 

Nefla,  Yep, women body builders aren't women but "things" in that case. 

[Seraphim24]

I'm seeing the same characters in other trailer there, still nothing like femshep with a female character focus beginning to end.

 

I said the Qunari was a thing because honestly if I didn't know it was already a woman from prior information I would not have necessarily known what gender she qualified as, considering not only the hyper-muscularity but the horns/skin and the... uh... whole situation. The face seemed very vaguely feminine, but that's basically it. 

 

The Draenei in WoW for instance I think of as female despite being blue and having horns, just based on being more closely aligned. 

 

I was referring to Zelda because I very clearly know that is a female, and an attractive female at that. I was thinking of a trailer with femquisitor that looked like Zelda (or just any standard female-ish human really) or just some kind of other hot female, with her own voicing and background and focus on her in several scenes specifically for that character. Kind of like the Super Smash trailers. 

 

Honestly though whatever, if they don't want to put out any character trailers or this or that I'd be fine with that, just seemed odd because again, people were pretty psyched about femshep. 

[Brass_Buckles]

I'm seeing the same characters in other trailer there, no female specific one. 

 

I said the Qunari was a thing because honestly if I didn't know it was already a woman from prior information I would not have necessarily known what gender she qualified as, considering not only the hyper-muscularity but the horns/skin and the... thing... on the chin. The face seemed very vaguely feminine.

 

The Draenei in WoW for instance I think of as female despite being blue and having horns, just based on being more closely aligned. 

 

I was referring to Zelda because I very clearly know that is a female, and an attractive female at that. I was thinking of a trailer with femquisitor that looked like Zelda (or just any standard female-ish human really) or just some kind of other hot female, with her own voicing and background and focus on her in several scenes specifically for that character. Kind of like the Super Smash trailers. 

 

Honestly though whatever, if they don't want to put out any character trailers or this or that I'd be fine with that, just seemed odd because again, people were pretty psyched about femshep. 

 

Not only did I immediately recognize the female qunari Inquisitor as female, but I thought she looked awesome.  She's a qunari woman; of course she's going to be tall and muscular and not look conventionally/media-style attractive.  Obviously I'm not everyone, but I do think it's way overboard to call the qunari woman a "thing."  It's an insult to the developers and also an insult to real-world women who may have a more muscular build, or even a somewhat masculine set of facial features.

 

World of Warcraft women of course do look more feminine because pretty much all of their female characters are hyper-feminized.  I've never played it, but I have seen videos and screenshots.  Even the female minotaurs are hyper-feminized considering what they are.  Part of that is because they are more cartoony--which Zelda is, as well, I should point out--and part of it is because the developers at Blizzard were going specifically for a sexy look for most of their female characters (I suppose you could exclude the minotaurs and pandas, but I do reiterate that the minotaur females also got some sexing up even though it makes no sense to me why they had to sex up minotaurs just to make them read as "female"--they are cow-people, just make the cows leaner than the bulls...).

 

Is it really a bad thing if qunari females look a bit more androgynous?  I'm reasonably sure it will be possible to change her features to look more traditionally feminine if you so choose, as well as remove her chin tattoo, give her smaller horns or no horns at all, etc.

 

Edited to add:  I don't think DAI is going for a totally realistic look; there's some stylization there.  However, it's still far more realistic in style than the average JRPG, Zelda game, or, yes, World of Warcraft.  So yes, the more androgynous female qunari fits just fine in the DAI art style.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah I'm really hoping it's possible to have the female Qunari more traditionally female as well. Cause while the demo fem Qunari is very distinctive...I would not want to play as her for hours on end. Hopefully all those CC combinations will have it so we can have both.

[KaiserShep]

I said the Qunari was a thing because honestly if I didn't know it was already a woman from prior information I would not have necessarily known what gender she qualified as, considering not only the hyper-muscularity but the horns/skin and the... uh... whole situation. The face seemed very vaguely feminine, but that's basically it.

 

It's really strange to me that the female qunari in this game would be considered hyper-muscular. I guess compared to the stick figures we got in Dragon Age: Origins, but compared to women in real life? I'd say there's nothing hyper about it.

[Seraphim24]

Couldn't celebrating a heavily muscularized woman and declaring all feminine-ish women as "hyper-feminized, cartoony, and sexed up" be an equally powerful insult to attractive women? 

 

At any rate, my intention was to declare my confusion more than anything else. My concept of a "woman" is a certain image, and I still don't see quite how this Qunari is anything like most muscular women or women with muscularized facial features, it is alien if anything. If they had put a "masculine" looking female or something that makes sense, pretty much every male has some degree of female characteristics and vice-versa, or something. I don't want to necessarily insult anyone, but I'm not a biologist and I thought the Qunari would at least somewhat like what more of the concept art was showing, where they are indeed somewhat muscular but not necessarily... that. 

 

Anyway, you seem like a nice person and this is dragging in gender politics which is significantly more complicated than my personal quibble at the lack of a genuine femshep trailer. I especially wanted to contrast her with Zelda, who I see as simultaneously strong and attractive, when I could of just picked any number of random comic/anime art of the "super-hot" female. 

 

I'd think it's also an insult that extremely strong or independent women (as this Qunari seems to be) couldn't also be attractive? 

 

At any rate, I haven't seen any trailers focusing on the elves, why not just have an elf to balance it all out? Seems like no big deal.