9318 réponses à ce sujet

[Tevinter Rose]

I get really frustrated with the, if this/then must be also true scenario.

 

If for me to get a dress, requires a male to also get a dress.  It means I can never get a dress because we're no where near a point where a male pc is going to be wearing a dress.

 

I feel like in the effort to become equal we're losing the ability to celebrate our differences, or enjoy things that are traditionally ours.  I feel like I'm being told to be equal to a man I need to dress, act and move like a man.  Gender neutral is a misnomer as really there is very little male only clothing to compare to female only clothing.  What gender neutral really comes down to is no feminine clothing, not really gender neutral.  Is really can only wear clothes men can wear too.

 

Is just something that really depresses me.  I championed for pretty dresses in more games than I can count...  I just want my dress

 

Spoiler

 

Fallout New Vegas Veronica Has Finally Got Her FIRST Dress

[oceanicsurvivor]

Transexual women ARE women not just men in a dress.  They don't grow a beard and walk around in a dress usually, not if they're really serious about it.  The goal of a transwoman is to pass and hopefully become physically a woman.  Which is a lot more than just throwing on a dress.  Even transvestites hope to pull it off and look like a girl, not like a man with a dress tossed on.

 

A transwoman wearing a dress as a male is in transition, and it's a hurtful place to be.  They want to transition and be a woman, not a man in a dress.  A transwoman will play a female character because is who they are, what they want to be.  Not a man wearing a dress.

 

Yes. Trans women are women. The goals of trans women however vary from individual to individual and not all want to have surgery or can have surgery. However that does not make them less of a woman. Also many people exist outside the gender binary,or they may be a cis dude who enjoys wearing dresses. Or a cis woman who enjoys wearing a tux. Or, they may be agender, genderfluid, etc or decide they want to wear both tux's and dresses. The gender you identify as has nothing to do with your gender expression.

[Puppy Love]

But other than that.  Yes I ultimately agree, I think we should both get what we want.  The problem is not my asking for others not to get it.  I have no actual problem with male characters being able to wear a dress.  My problem is that I feel my femininity is being excluded.  The gender neutral stuff is already represented and only represented.  Now I don;'t mind gender neutral to be destroyed as a term and have all clothes considered gender neutral, but that's not really what people are pushing.  Instead is the bland over restrictive version of gender neutral

[oceanicsurvivor]

A strange fit sure, but gender neutral perhaps? Except I think the thighs show on the other version...

[Puppy Love]

Yeah if it's a dress on a girl it should be a dress on a guy too.

 

Don't want to see stuff like this:

 

 

I'm not sure anyone ever wanted to see stuff like that.  The real travesty there being the outfit is ugly in general, but the alteration for females is even uglier than the male version.  In this case if I was forced to wear either I'd go with the male model fitted for a female body over the female version which is a monstrosity.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I know they haven't showed anything like the battledress of the provocateur but if they have something like that I will be happy. My warden loved that armor and wouldn't give it up, well I shouldn't say that as sometimes she would give it to Leliana.

It looks like we will be able to dress more feminine at skyhold judging by the gamescom demo.

That armor was a godsend for Rogues on higher difficulties. 

[Tayah]

Talking about personality is ard since the player is in control of that aspect of the character. Hence why people tend to talk about things out of their control. 

I'm out of likes again but I really like this and agree totally. So "like". 

 

 

I get really frustrated with the, if this/then must be also true scenario.

 

If for me to get a dress, requires a male to also get a dress.  It means I can never get a dress because we're no where near a point where a male pc is going to be wearing a dress.

 

I feel like in the effort to become equal we're losing the ability to celebrate our differences, or enjoy things that are traditionally ours.  I feel like I'm being told to be equal to a man I need to dress, act and move like a man.  Gender neutral is a misnomer as really there is very little male only clothing to compare to female only clothing.  What gender neutral really comes down to is no feminine clothing, not really gender neutral.  Is really can only wear clothes men can wear too.

 

Is just something that really depresses me.  I championed for pretty dresses in more games than I can count...  I just want my dress

I would agree there is very little male only clothing now though it's taken a long time for women to be able to wear clothing practical for what they were doing or that is simply what they prefer to wear. I don't think to be equal you should have to dress, act and move like a man and I say this as a 'tomboy' lesbian. You should be treated with the same respect, have equal pay for equal work and so on but no that doesn't mean acting like a man any more than being a 'tomboy' means I act like a man, I just act like me.

 

For game options I think pretty dresses should be an option especially when not on the battlefield and I certainly hope you get one for impressing Orlesian nobles at some point in the game at the very least. I hope I get an option for the equivalent of a tux for the same events simply because that's my preference... I'm with Oceanic Survivor on the forced to wear dresses and skirts thing. What I'm advocating for really is options, your pretty dresses and my suits and everything in between. For me the more options the better!   

[Allan Schumacher]

I actually think you're helped by having four races though because each race already lends itself to differences in how they look, qunari tall and hopefully broad, dwarf short and stocky, elf lithe and slim and human athletic and... something. Hopefully that's at least giving you four different models to start with and what the discussion seems to be about now is the clothes and armour being worn from there.

 

I actually agree with this.  I know not everyone will, and someone will be "I would prefer if my elf was more like X" and stuff like that, but I'm hoping it's a reasonable compromise.

[Lady Nuggins]

I was just talking about the presentation where he was talking about the "human female inquisitor." It's the tone that he said it in that gave me the impression he was going "Oh look, BSN and world, we are so good for listening, pat us on the head." And then going, we're done now.

 

I'm just saying it's absurd that there are 200+ pages and multiple posts on what the female should look like in a place where supposedly purely superficial considerations are a bad way to sum up a character. 

 

Doesn't look good to me. You are trying to pull out a bias or theme of hatred and I'm saying if there wasn't any to begin with Bioware comes off looking like an ass. 

 

You must remember that for about a year, there was no Lady Inquisitor in a single video or image anywhere.  A year.  When this thread started, we had seen only the human male.  Prior to that, in Dragon Age 2's marketing campaign, Lady Hawke was invisible.  Male Hawke was the only one ever seen outside the game.  If you peek inside the official DA2 walkthrough, you will see hundreds of pages of male Hawke, and about 5 of Lady Hawke--one of which, she is in her underwear.  In Mass Effect's marketing, Femshep was not visible in the marketing for the first 2 games.  She appeared only in the trailer you refer to--for the third game of the series.

 

So yes, just seeing the Lady Inquisitor is important to us.  Seeing her in demos and trailers that don't make it all about her female-ness is important.  The fact that they choose to use the female version in the demos says that they don't see her as a special interest option, something to shunt into one special trailer that only people who care about the female version will watch.  They put her in the videos that most hardcore gamers will want to check out.  They casually included her in the main thrust of the marketing campaign, not on the fringes of it.

 

I don't know what it is about that ME3 Femshep trailer that you're so keen on, so maybe you could explain it?  I wasn't around when ME3 came out, so I don't see what made that, specifically, so great.  I do hope we get more trailers, not just demos, featuring the female Inquisitor.  I don't know where you got the idea that we don't.

 

And so what if we also discuss the more shallow details of her appearance while celebrating the fact that she's there at all?  As you can see from all this discussion, we are not a hivemind, we have preferences, and there is nothing wrong with discussing that.  That doesn't change how great it is that she is being used as one of the faces of this game.

 

I get really frustrated with the, if this/then must be also true scenario.

 

If for me to get a dress, requires a male to also get a dress.  It means I can never get a dress because we're no where near a point where a male pc is going to be wearing a dress.

 

I feel like in the effort to become equal we're losing the ability to celebrate our differences, or enjoy things that are traditionally ours.  I feel like I'm being told to be equal to a man I need to dress, act and move like a man.  Gender neutral is a misnomer as really there is very little male only clothing to compare to female only clothing.  What gender neutral really comes down to is no feminine clothing, not really gender neutral.  Is really can only wear clothes men can wear too.

 

Is just something that really depresses me.  I championed for pretty dresses in more games than I can count...  I just want my dress

 

Like I said, I don't think femininity is automatically bad, and I hope you get the feminine options that you want.  We just haven't seen enough of the armor options available to know either way.  Maybe you should start a new thread about this?

[Brass_Buckles]

But other than that.  Yes I ultimately agree, I think we should both get what we want.  The problem is not my asking for others not to get it.  I have no actual problem with male characters being able to wear a dress.  My problem is that I feel my femininity is being excluded.  The gender neutral stuff is already represented and only represented.  Now I don;'t mind gender neutral to be destroyed as a term and have all clothes considered gender neutral, but that's not really what people are pushing.  Instead is the bland over restrictive version of gender neutral

 

I prefer gender-neutral stuff for the most part, but yes, as I said before, between combat especially (i.e. in town, at the Keep) I would LOVE to have some downtime clothing.  Dresses, pantsuits, casual non-mage robes, etc.  But for me, it's more a deal with downtime only--note, this is a personal preference only.  If it's actual armor, well, I like neat-looking armor, but if it's got too many flowing draping bits, then I won't be able to put it on my character.  (Exception:  Capes or cloaks.  They are horribly impractical since they can be grabbed, snagged, etc. in combat, but they just look cool... and even though I've got an aversion to flowing armors, I DO really like loose, long flowing clothing.  Always have.  Even the Inquisitor's sash could be a liability if the length that dangles is too much... can be grabbed.)  That said, I think that there could be more girly/frilly armor sets and I wouldn't mind.  Some of my characters would probably wear them.  But I prefer some nice detailing on a more gender-neutral set, myself--with an option to also wear just plain old clothing on downtime if I'm not in combat.  'Cause I agree, it's silly that we're traversing the land in full armor when not on a mission--even leather or lamellar would be heavy and bulky and definitely uncomfortable.  I think it's more, however, for the sake of gameplay that this is the case, since you can be attacked at any time and it would require more coding and modeling to also have a full set of civilian gear.

 

We've already seen a few screenshots (they're old though so may no longer be accurate) of rogues wearing clothing-like armor (no chainmail or armor pieces) and with the customization options, that SHOULD mean that you can modify that kind of armor/remake it with better materials once you find something you just really like.  I'm hoping there's also an armor dyeing system, but if not, then changing materials should change colors anyway.  So I think there will be at least a reasonable variety of armor to choose from, plus, you can toggle off your helmet if you choose.

 

I do believe that things tend to skew toward male-centric even when they are supposed to be gender-neutral.  All the things should be available to everyone.  Manquisitor should be able to wear a dress to the ball, even, if he wants, and Womanquisitor should be able to wear a nice suit if she pleases.  The problem is that there is still this notion out there that feminine is somehow worse than masculine.  And I think that's why so many of us skew toward gender neutral preferences in our armor/clothing for our characters.  We KNOW if there's feminine stuff (especially if available to male characters), there will be a backlash.  I suspect the developers believe this, too, and that is why most stuff tends to skew masculine or neutral--they have limited resources, and fear a backlash if they add anything too "girly," so they put those resources into more masculine and gender-neutral gear.  But fear not, we know there will be an Orlesian ball.  Maybe there's some way to customize a dress for that?

 

I mostly play women, but most of the women characters I play are not particularly masculine, while at the same time I don't view most of them as super-feminine either.  So the gender neutral thing does not bother me as much, personally--though I can see why it would bother someone who very much wants to play girly girl types (which is something I personally rarely do, probably because I'm not much like that in real life either).   That said, if that's the kind of character YOU want to play, then yes, you should be able to.  It's just my opinion, but while the drab colors on the gear work well for stealthy type characters who don't want to stand out, and while I like the cut and shape of a lot of the armors, I'd like to be able to be more colorful, maybe have at least a dash of color on the lining/trim.  I don't know if that's precisely what you would want or not.

 

As for the previous remarks by Kefka and someone else (sorry I don't remember who) about our talking about how women are represented here... well, I think that's relevant because oversexualization leads to objectification, and we're looking for positive representation in the marketing.  The thread was about marketing from the beginning.  While there's nothing wrong with a woman choosing to show more skin in real life, video game characters actually cannot choose what to wear.  They're creations of their developers, the writers and artists and animators.  Therefore, it makes sense that we are concerned about not only the fact that they are represented in marketing and the media, rather than making women invisible or omitting them entirely (oh hi Assassin's Creed Unity...), but that they are not, when they are shown, presented as mere sexual objects subject to straight male gaze.  There's a time and a place for male gaze, but when you're presenting a female protagonist for the sake of making women feel more included, that is not the time or place for it.  (Neither is the entirety of ME2 while playing a straight female Shepard and consistently getting butt shots of Miranda... Seriously, no thank you...)

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I actually agree with this.  I know not everyone will, and someone will be "I would prefer if my elf was more like X" and stuff like that, but I'm hoping it's a reasonable compromise.

I have to ask, is Bioware looking into the prospect of customizable bodies? Like maybe how SWTOR had a few options per gender? 

[Ziggy]

The problem is that there is still this notion out there that feminine is somehow worse than masculine.  And I think that's why so many of us skew toward gender neutral preferences in our armor/clothing for our characters.  We KNOW if there's feminine stuff (especially if available to male characters), there will be a backlash.  I suspect the developers believe this, too, and that is why most stuff tends to skew masculine or neutral--they have limited resources, and fear a backlash if they add anything too "girly," so they put those resources into more masculine and gender-neutral gear.  But fear not, we know there will be an Orlesian ball.  Maybe there's some way to customize a dress for that?

 

 

I sometimes work with pre-school children and often a boy will come in wearing a skirt, dress or even a pink fairy costume and all the other kids will be completely cool with it. It's only later that they learn that it is somehow not acceptable for boys to do anything "girly" and they are forced to give up that part of themselves or risk being a target for bullies. It's really very sad.

[Seraphim24]

Therefore, it makes sense that we are concerned about not only the fact that they are represented in marketing and the media, rather than making women invisible or omitting them entirely (oh hi Assassin's Creed Unity...), but that they are not, when they are shown, presented as mere sexual objects subject to straight male gaze.  

 

I still think this thread (and forum, kinda) is the straight male gaze, under the guise of female emancipation and clarity, there have been 200 pages about whether her curves or walk is too sexual or not and little about what makes her as a female person. Whenever Bioware comes up outside BSN, people automatically associate it with sex and just gender stuff, rather than oh man, Solas sounds like a really cool character or whatever. Some people think of Bioware as having cool characters, but mostly not so much. If they want to be taken more seriously, I would suggest changing their emphasis. 

 

I guess I just find their lack of confidence (What about this? What about that woman? Oh no, we can't do both) pretty grating though, and I feel like that's because they're not '100%' sure what it is they're trying to say. 

 

Honestly though, if you just want to keep comparing DA:I to past Bioware games or to the many lame generic games out there and call that a victory fine. Plus, it wasn't my thread and if the sole goal of people here was just to see her then fine also, I see a possibility but I don't need to really go on about it here. 

[aTigerslunch]

Is this thread seriously just here for a catch all of every female related issue posters have about DA:I?

 

I don't understand it's purpose.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No offense but female protagonists have been playable in many games for some time, such as WoW or Demon Souls or places like that. Going to a demo and going "Look, look, we have a human female!" Is not particularly novel at this point in time. 

 

 

Some people have now answered that and (also) no offense also but honestly the fact that you guys appear to fixate on the superficial elements of a female person in the Bioware crusade against superficiality is rather distressing. Well, and ironic. 

 

It doesn't matter what size or shape female or clothes you put out if they don't have any genuine characterization separating them from the other image of females in the universe or western games at generally. I cringed at the demo when he was announcing "Human female."? It starts to feel like a marketing presentation where the big fat bullet point with - Female protag, checked, therefore we're good or something.

 

 

Initially, as it was pointed out by a couple above my post, this thread was made before there was a female quisitor being pushed, it was only males and a gender neutral that could be assumed male cause there was no female quisitors around. It wasnt gender neutral to me, I saw another male in that video generally cause was no images for females when it first showed. Also that the issue is there are many more games that barely see females as well.  Marketing females helps let people know they can be a female. My cousins that play games didnt know about Mass Effect females or Dragon Age females till I showed them scenes.

 

Bound by Flame didnt market female, and I had to dig around wiki to finally find out it had females, after it was already on shelves. Sunset Overdrive finally showed off females but initially it was just males as well, the female not showing up till couple months within its release time. The fact that the first appearance was a female in assassin outfit was quite significant as well, their response to outcries of lacking females within a different company.

 

To say, marketing females is too much. I dont see enough. I see more males still being displayed than anything in scattering amounts of games. Which, I dont follow those, I see them on occasion. It helps to get a mix for people that dont keep up with games regularly to show females are in their games. I would never pre-ordered Sunset, till they showed a demo of females and customizations.

 

I want diversity and equality. Clothing styles to be capable of having a man or woman in a style they choose to be in. I am definitely for that. Until we get a stronger base of diversion, it will be difficult. Comics are pushing their diversity as well and some of it is getting its own backlash. Batwoman the lesbian married to the Question, I think is awesome and glad that is out there. Superman and Batman having a kiss, well... they do have a love - hate relationship, that could explain their hate of each other. I dont know if I want that, but I guess its feasible when looking at it in that perspective. Doesnt mean I will like it that much considering who I thought they was but not completely out of the question when looking at it in that direction I mentioned. Representation should get shown for all and not be ignored.

 

I hope I didnt offend some with my own thoughts on that.

[Allan Schumacher]

I was just talking about the presentation where he was talking about the "human female inquisitor." It's the tone that he said it in that gave me the impression he was going "Oh look, BSN and world, we are so good for listening, pat us on the head." And then going, we're done now.

 

Is it your jadedness with us caring about it that makes you more sensitive to this?  It seems to undermine the position that this sort of stuff isn't something you care about.

 

It's pointing out, explicitly, to a gaming population that is becoming increasingly more visible about this sort of stuff, this is the human female inquisitor.  We don't need to go "Hey BSN we're listening to you."  Based on this thread, I get the impression that people interested in this issue already feel that BioWare has noticed the discussion. 

[oceanicsurvivor]

I still think this thread (and forum, kinda) is the straight male gaze, under the guise of female emancipation and clarity, there have been 200 pages about whether her curves or walk is too sexual or not and little about what makes her as a female person. Whenever Bioware comes up outside BSN, people automatically associate it with sex and just straight gender stuff, rather than oh man, Solas sounds like a really cool character or whatever. Some people think of Bioware as having cool characters, but mostly not so much. If they want to be taken more seriously, I would suggest changing their emphasis.

 

No this thread was created by a woman and has been maintained largely by women who want to play as a woman who IS there to be a female person and NOT a sex object. Hence, some of the complaints about her walk. Because very few of the women who want to play as her feel that walk is similar to how they themselves walk. And it isn't 200 pages about her walk anyways. We have covered many many many other topics.

[Allan Schumacher]

That's not my point, people outside of the ones already invested in the dragon age are getting the impression that all LGBT characters and the ability to play as female is just a way to grab sales more than anything.

 

Any chance you have a selection bias on your sample?

 

You've already (long ago) posted a "why is this thread even still here" type of message in this thread.  Is the topic one that you're actually interested in?  Or are you trying to silence people by implicating that continuing on this discussion is, on the whole, harming the game's image to the gaming audience as a whole and undermining its chances of success?

[Seraphim24]

Is it your jadedness with us caring about it that makes you more sensitive to this?  It seems to undermine the position that this sort of stuff isn't something you care about.

 

It's pointing out, explicitly, to a gaming population that is becoming increasingly more visible about this sort of stuff, this is the human female inquisitor.  We don't need to go "Hey BSN we're listening to you."  Based on this thread, I get the impression that people interested in this issue already feel that BioWare has noticed the discussion. 

 

I see some confusion. Let me just put it this way, there are girls that I know who I think of as very feminine, and their defining characteristic is they don't go "oh hey, look at this, look at me, look at how I do this." They just do it. They just dress how they want, say what they want, and there isn't this kind of tepid I'm-expressing-myself-as-a-female thing accompanying it. 

 

On the contrary, I edited my point about caring to make clear that more female characters is good. For instance, Warlords of Draenor has very few female characters in sight. It seems to me Bioware is, in one way or another, straining after something I do actually care about. If I was sitting alone, making up an idea for a game, I would have some pretty preeminent female characters. There is so much room there for excitement in that area. So I do care about that. 

 

I just don't care when people give me the impression that "Oh look! I'm doing that! See! See!" That's what I don't care for, but it's kind of picayune, I just sensed it in the presentation. I just don't care for the notion that if we superficially represent female characters, we are substantively representing female characters. 

 

Additionally, I'd also want male characters in that game right? I wouldn't necessarily want it to swing one way or the other on the basis of some idea about what should be, or should happen. Actions and substance (which is hopefully, actually, there) speak louder than words and images, I guess, is what is. I don't care as much for words these days. 

 

As I said above though, it's more emphasis than most games, perhaps, and that's fine. 

[aTigerslunch]

I still think this thread (and forum, kinda) is the straight male gaze, under the guise of female emancipation and clarity, there have been 200 pages about whether her curves or walk is too sexual or not and little about what makes her as a female person. Whenever Bioware comes up outside BSN, people automatically associate it with sex and just straight gender stuff, rather than oh man, Solas sounds like a really cool character or whatever. Some people think of Bioware as having cool characters, but mostly not so much. If they want to be taken more seriously, I would suggest changing their emphasis. 

 

I guess I just find their lack of confidence (What about this? What about that woman? Oh no, we can't do both) pretty grating though, and I feel like that's because they're not '100%' sure what it is they're trying to say. 

 

Honestly though, if you just want to keep comparing DA:I to past Bioware games or to the many lame generic games out there and call that a victory fine. 

 

Nope, this thread doesnt technically benefit me specifically.

 

If want to see more about Solas's character, Sera's character and such, this is the wrong thread to find them. Only one thread about showing female inquisitor off on the forums, and saw 2 about female walk/talk and such. Most are about other things, romances and such. If you want to talk about personalities of specific characters please head off to their specific threads instead. This is not the place for their personalities. Inquisitor doesnt have a specific personality and glad he/she doesnt cause it is our creation of a character not Biowares, till we hand them back over at the end of DA:I.

 

 

 

Anyways, to learn more about the NP-characters, as in more depth of who they are, that would spoil some story. I don't want to know more than they already shared about each character. Cause some of it needs to be done when actually talking to those characters. I didnt see an issue with the latest video, it showed off combat, building the inquisition and doing quests for the inquisition up-building.

[Allan Schumacher]

I see some confusion. Let me just put it this way, there are girls that I know who I think of as very feminine, and their defining characteristic is they don't go "oh hey, look at this, look at me, look at how I do this." They just do it. They just dress how they want, say what they want.

 

There are literally people that ask Aaryn (and myself, and others, and so forth) en masse for "I'd like to see a character of race/gender combination."  Stating it straight up makes that fact known.  Because, as evidenced by this thread (and frankly, perhaps the gaming population in general, given that the topic is coming to the forefront more and more) some people are interested in that particular topic.

 

I think your frustration with the topic's prevalence is causing you to overthink it.

[Nefla]

Gender Neutral Armor?

 

It's gender neutral everything which is why I'm always stuck in robes rather than getting a dress...

 

Which is why to a degree guys complaining that they want mage pants cause they don't want to wear a dress annoys me.  They aren't wearing a dress anymore than my character is wearing pants.  Neither of us are wearing a dress, robes aren't even close to a dress.  We're both not getting what we want.

 

Some women, believe it or not want female options.  I'm not a tom boy, I'm a girly girl, I like pretty dresses, I like traditional female outfits.  Everything being gender neutral means I can't have anything gender specific, as if there's something wrong with not wearing the same thing as a guy.

 

If you really want true gender neutral outfits, then anytime a man shows his chest, my girl should be topless as well in the same outfit.  That's not going to happen, is a silly idea.  There are clothes women wear that men really don't typically and vice versa.  Wearing those types of outfits is not wrong in any way.

 

Equal does not necessarily mean the same.  I think this is really where my real problem comes from.  Not really the breast size, or anything like that, but the push towards sameness and equivalency through being closer to identical to the male icon.  I don't want to dress like a male character, I have no interest in gender neutral outfits.  I don't wear them unless I have to.  I proudly wear dresses and skirts.  I don't want this sameness in all respects everyone keeps pushing for.  Is there really something wrong with wanting some drastically female and male only outfits?

Maybe not a modern/fashionable dress, but most of the "robes" in DA2 were definitely dresses.

 

When you think mage robes you don't think of brightly colored, tight fitting, embroidered dresses

 

I really don't understand why you're being so aggressive.

 

1) No one is saying you can't wear dresses in real life or that you or your character need to be a man

2) The mage robes will likely be very feminine and the rogues will probably be a mixture of practical or sexy

3) We are not the ones designing the outfits for this game

4) Even if we were it's far too late to change anything

[aTigerslunch]

ooops... I passed my 1 k post mark already and didnt even notice till that last one.