I consider the argument "it's almost always male" to be a valid argument, however. So yes, I agree that it's just as valid....
"It's almost always male" is a proposition/premise, not an argument. And I think you mean "permissible" or "with merit" instead of "valid."
"It's almost always male" is a proposition/premise, not an argument. And I think you mean "permissible" or "with merit" instead of "valid."
I'm not sure if it's the semantics that are actually bothering you, or the fact that he's arguing the point that the comparatively high percentage of male characters in advertising for games is a perfectly valid and reasonable cause for using more female characters in marketing now. Either way, arguing semantics is way off topic.
A lot of great discussion in this thread - it's awesome to see so many of us taking the time to explain why we had a negative reaction to the lack of female protagonist shown in the trailer. This is time and energy that we freely donate to help others see our point of view. Time given freely to tell Bioware (and others) the very same things that companies usually have to pay consults thousands of dollars for. I know that Bioware are always ready to collect telemetry and listen to their fans' opinions, and I know that they are listening now as well, so I'll take the opportunity to say a few more words on the topic. I'm far from an expert on marketing and PR, but it's still an interesting topic to me.
- It's reasonable that consideration about gender parity is given to the game as a whole, not just to certain aspects (like promotional items, companions as discussed in a previous topic, etc). Still, it's also important to know what is most visible to those of us, who buys and plays the game, seeing as we are on the outside looking in. We do not yet have the whole picture, so our opinions are, like it or not, formed based on what is available to us at the moment. Companions and protagonists are a huge part of that. They will be featured in fanart, screenshots will be shared, we'll hopefully be gushing about them to our friends and talk about how those companions/npc characters impacted us, etc. Some of those who see said fanart, or hear us talking passionately about our experience, will then feel compelled to pick up the game. Many of us trust our friends' opinions more than we ever trust marketing, but marketing can still reach more than word of mouth. Both are important.
- Gender equality in entertainment is a topic discussed now more than ever. Having been on the front line in the industry, like Bioware has been for many years, plays a not-too-insignificant part of why we're now discussing this in more detail than ever. But it also means that people tend to expect more of said vanguards. I expect products with female characters marketed proudly, equal amounts of female and male companions, LGBTQA representation/inclusivity, and more from companies like Bioware. If it seems to be missing from sneak peaks of the game, I grow worried that no progress is being made, or worse, backtracking. Helping me and others feel assured that this isn't the case would go a long way, and score valuable points as a company actively involved in the change we're seeing in entertainment.
- So far, a lot of the tidbits released about Inquisition seems to be aimed at winning back players who enjoyed Origins but disliked DAII. That's understandable; marketing often aims at keeping customers or bring them back rather than recruit new customers. The trailer already has more than 900k views, last I checked, meaning close to 10 % of those who bought DA : Origins in the first year* may have already taken part of the information available so far. With 6 months to go, the remaining 90% is sure to at least hear about the game. So what about those who played none of the previous games? I'm hoping that upcoming parts of the promotion being planned will take care to reach new potential players as well, and that includes women who enjoy games, or might enjoy them if they were intrigued enough to give it a try. As others pointed out, many of us have personal stories about friends who felt that Dragon Age was more interesting to them after hearing about the ability to play as a woman (or the romances, the LGBTQA-friendly content, the origin stories, etc).
All of this have been said before, by people more knowledgable about the topic than me, but I wanted to write about it anyway since a friend of mine has just told me that she lost all interest in the game after hearing about some of what has been mentioned in this thread and others. Most of all, I can't help but thinking that if the Lady Inquisitor had been in the trailer, 900k people would have seen an upcoming game featuring a female lead character and how amazing that would have been. The trailer was lovely and I must have watched it 10+ times already, but it still somehow felt a little like a lost opportunity to me.
* Unless I'm completely wrong about the initial sales.
All of this have been said before, by people more knowledgable about the topic than me, but I wanted to write about it anyway since a friend of mine has just told me that she lost all interest in the game after hearing about some of what has been mentioned in this thread and others. Most of all, I can't help but thinking that if the Lady Inquisitor had been in the trailer, 900k people would have seen an upcoming game featuring a female lead character and how amazing that had been. The trailer was lovely and I must have watched it 10+ times already, but it still somehow felt a little like a lost opportunity to me.
You know and not to mention that utilizing the same dudebro in the promotional materials makes the game look exactly like almost all other fantasy RPGs out there... to the point where people might start getting Inquisition confused with other new RPGs, such as: Pillars of Eternity, Witcher, Dark Souls, Lords of the Fallen (if I'm remembering that name correctly)... just to name a handful that have immediately popped into my head.
The Dragon Age series, to me, is an RPG in a category all of its own. It cannot be compared to some of the other stuff out there. But with these dudebro Inquisitor promotional materials, it almost seems like Bioware wants to blend in with all the rest and be indistinguishable to the average gamer browsing for a new title.
Having a female Inquisitor share some of the spotlight would immediately catch people's attention, and make them realize that yes Inquisition might actually be worth having a look at.
It can be also an argument, in the "reason" sense of the word. As in, a good reason to put female character on the cover is (to shake up) the tendency to almost always have a male there."It's almost always male" is a proposition/premise, not an argument.
You know and not to mention that utilizing the same dudebro in the promotional materials makes the game look exactly like almost all other fantasy RPGs out there... to the point where people might start getting Inquisition confused with other new RPGs, such as: Pillars of Eternity, Witcher, Dark Souls, Lords of the Fallen (if I'm remembering that name correctly)... just to name a handful that have immediately popped into my head.
The Dragon Age series, to me, is an RPG in a category all of its own. It cannot be compared to some of the other stuff out there. But with these dudebro Inquisitor promotional materials, it almost seems like Bioware wants to blend in with all the rest and be indistinguishable to the average gamer browsing for a new title.
Having a female Inquisitor share some of the spotlight would immediately catch people's attention, and make them realize that yes Inquisition might actually be worth having a look at.
Exactly. From a cynical marketing standpoint, there's already plenty to tag DA as a good fantasy RPG. Two previous highly-regarded (YMMV) games, the studio name, the prominent dragons and demons in the cover art, the heavily armoured protagonist. It's high-quality and gorgeous, but it's pretty much boilerplate "this is a AAA RPG." No real point of differentiation.
What you want to do in marketing, when you can, is highlight what makes your product original, different, better. And your potential market has a lot of competition in the male-18-to-24 demographic. But in the larger female-over-35 group, there are a lot more people, and a lot fewer AAA games which compete for our piles of money. Why not make at least some advertising that throws a bone to the fastest growing sector of game buyer?
Just puting this out there don't make her a dog ugly red headed freakizoid (nothing wrong with redheads i find redheaded woman sexy) but femshepard was ugly
Just puting this out there don't make her a dog ugly red headed freakizoid (nothing wrong with redheads i find redheaded woman sexy) but femshepard was ugly
Just putting this out there - since when was the sexual attractiveness of the protagonist a priority?
MODEDIT: Removed deleted quotes.
Regardless, things like hate PMs under the impression that they can't/won't be reported for them, and other underhanded evil--yes, acting on hatred of someone for no real reason beyond biology or sexual preference is an evil act--behaviors, prove to me that it IS important that Bioware present female protagonists in a more front-and-center, in-your-face way.
I won't say no one is asking for men to be totally replaced in the protagonist marketing sphere, because I'm sure someone is. But I'm not that person. I just want equal representation, I want women to know that they can play a female character in the game. It WILL bring more ladies into the Bioware fold, I can almost promise you. The reduction in male players will be negligible at best, as long as it is clear that EITHER sex is an option for protagonist. And the ones you lose, well... they're probably the same guys who whine that it isn't realistic for women to be warriors in a fantasy game...
Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 28 avril 2014 - 03:38 .
I won't say no one is asking for men to be totally replaced in the protagonist marketing sphere, because I'm sure someone is. But I'm not that person. I just want equal representation, I want women to know that they can play a female character in the game. It WILL bring more ladies into the Bioware fold, I can almost promise you. The reduction in male players will be negligible at best, as long as it is clear that EITHER sex is an option for protagonist. And the ones you lose, well... they're probably the same guys who whine that it isn't realistic for women to be warriors in a fantasy game...
Or the ones that freak out when Anders hits on them (after they've repeatedly chosen the heart symbol of their own volition). 
Yes at the end of the day I think the point that we are asking for equality (rather than lady Inquisitor taking everything over, period) is eluding some people. Some are so desperate to cling on to their "territory" or however it is they view their games, that they feel automatically threatened when a woman (or a man) speaks up and says, "Hang on a minute, what about some variety?"
Or the ones that freak out when Anders hits on them (after they've repeatedly chosen the heart symbol of their own volition).
Yes at the end of the day I think the point that we are asking for equality (rather than lady Inquisitor taking everything over, period) is eluding some people. Some are so desperate to cling on to their "territory" or however it is they view their games, that they feel automatically threatened when a woman (or a man) speaks up and says, "Hang on a minute, what about some variety?"
Wrong i agreed to help Anders find Karl he took it the wrong way
Wrong i agreed to help Anders find Karl he took it the wrong way
Heart. Symbol. What did you think it meant?
Heart. Symbol. What did you think it meant?
I used face mask every time i encounted Anders
I used face mask every time i encounted Anders
Huh, okay. I'll take your word for it. I don't wanna derail the thread. Well in any case I don't think much of people who get honest to god upset about someone like Anders initiating a flirt, which can be easily shot down.
Agreed i just hope they don't let the fan's pick the default female Inquisitor's of all races
Just puting this out there don't make her a dog ugly red headed freakizoid (nothing wrong with redheads i find redheaded woman sexy) but femshepard was ugly
FemShep doesn't need your puny approval.
Besides, it wouldn't matter what features they gave a female protag, someone would be willing to step up and announce she was ugly. You don't expect a hard-as-nails decorated soldier to be a Botticelli angel anyhow. But even if she were, some bloke would waltz in and announce her eyes looked funny. (Actually overheard in the Botticelli room in the Uffizi).
Also; are you under the alarming impression BroShep was any better? Because if I had a face like his, I'd sure as heck be working on my charming personality and small talk.
Also; are you under the alarming impression BroShep was any better? Because if I had a face like his, I'd sure as heck be working on my charming personality and small talk.
Thank you!
Double standards are awesome. I don't see many of the male protags we've seen getting a career in modeling any time soon.
Thank you!
Double standards are awesome. I don't see many of the male protags we've seen getting a career in modeling any time soon.
Haha it's funny because Sheploo is a model
Haha it's funny because Sheploo is a model
OOOOOOH you are right!! Hahah. Well he is FUGLY. I wouldn't hire that face.
(Though I still love him. *sniff*)
Just puting this out there don't make her a dog ugly red headed freakizoid (nothing wrong with redheads i find redheaded woman sexy) but femshepard was ugly
Oooh, insults... you probably even insulted people who like this Shepard (like me) *slow clap*. Such mature thing to do.
Not that dudeshep was any better, mind you.
FemShep doesn't need your puny approval.
Yes! Let all who stand in her way be purged with gunfire and omni-blade!
Also, yes, more official images of female protagonists. More, always and forever.
Oooh, insults... you probably even insulted people who like this Shepard (like me) *slow clap*. Such mature thing to do.
Not that dudeshep was any better, mind you.
Hey, nice new avatar! 
Need moar of those. MOAR.
LOL Suddenly Zazzerka's bitterness makes sense....
Who doesn't know who now. Zazz is the least bitter person I know. But to the important stuff:
The industry is very foolish if it continues to ignore women (as a whole, not BioWare). I have a friend, a non-gamer, who has been telling me about how excited she is to have found this new game for her phone. It basically sounds like an Age of Empires type game. She's in some kind of guild or clan and has been chatting with several people in her "clan." She talks non-stop about this game! She has even asked to come play xbox with me a time or two (but at present I only have one controller, so...).
Be at ease. The female gamer is not being ignored. The content in games are designed specifically for the people who will actually play them, which is not the people who buy them. You are a female gamer, not a BioWare customer. While marketing has a long time to catch up with, "the times," I've never understood why people think games are somehow marketed to the people who will love them and actually play them. Not to insult anyone or anything, but games are marketed to the people who love the flashy and then compulsively buy, followed by them dumping it a quarter of the way through for the next game with flashy trailers. Yes female ads would be a step forward, but the lack of them does not mean female gamers are being ignored. Once you actually play the game, then you can make such statements. Your friend's enjoyment however, seems to show the opposite of someone who is being ignored.
I mean, this person is literally yearning to spend her money on an industry that doesn't think she's worth marketing to. *smh*
Exactly what the title says.
I know that marketing's going to hound the developers to not show the women, because they assume males are their primary market. But these forums alone contain oodles of women, and since forum posters are a minority I'd expect there are a whole lot more out there who don't post--and a few who are on the forums but don't admit to being female. Not to mention I'm sure there are guys who'd prefer to play the female Inquisitor. I don't think using her in marketing is going to hurt your sales.
I can't speak for the rest of us women, but I'd like to see a few renders of female inquisitors. So far I've only seen some concept art, which is great and better than it was with Mass Effect where we got nothing until ME3, but we've heard the male inquisitor voice, we've seen renders of male inquisitors...
I'm starting to feel like my Inquisitor is invisible as anything more than concept art--because even though I play males every now and then, my character will be a woman at least nine times out of ten.
So how about it, Bioware? Could we have a screenshot of the female Inquisitor in action? Could the next trailer show a lady Inquisitor? Pretty please?
i would actually love to see most of the trailers from this point be the female inquisitor, there hasnt been much of her and well thats is so not cool.
Accept it or not, but this is a business. A business needs to make money. To make money, the business needs to gain customers, and to expand that they need to hold the ones they already have. As such they look at ever possible outcome of the situation, and for now, they deem that overly marketing to the female gamer would be detrimental, or at least it seems that way. If you want to blame anyone for that, blame the consumer that these are geared towards, don't blame the developers who work hard so anyone, not just one select group, can enjoy their products, especially when they have almost zero connection to the people who market the game. The game industry has nothing to do with selling the product. That is the publisher. And even then, it's not fair to blame them for the mannerism of their source of income.
What would "overly" marketing toward female gamers look like? Right now they are not marketed to at all. So some marketing toward female gamers would be alienating to male gamers, is that correct? I just don't believe that the vast majority of male gamers are going to turn their noses up at a game because they saw a video where the protag was female once.
I do understand that it's not necessarily the hardcore gamers that they're trying to lure in. It's the casual "pick up everything shiny and new that lets me kill stuff lol nvm this is too plot-heavy for me to care" sort. But there are also casual female gamers who are always on the lookout for games just like this one, but who could be turned away because it looks like just another generic male-centric fantasy game. I just spent the past weekend helping out at my friend's video game merch booth. At least 50% of the customers who came by were female. Often the female customers were the ones who kept coming back, who kept bringing their friends and their boyfriends and pointing out all the things they knew they would love. Female customers are out there, they are interested, and they do have money.
I know these are higher-up decisions, not necessarily something that the dev team has any control over at all. But at the end of the day, the brand that a company chooses to create does reflect on that company.
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