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Could we please see more of the Lady Inquisitor?


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#6101
slimgrin

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Where did they do that?

 

It's subtle in this article but the prevailing narrative among the media is gamers are backwards white males who are misogynistic, racist etc. It's not fair to label the entire community that way, especially when they can't really prove this to be the case. More women in games and in the industry is a good thing. I feel the change needs to come from within, and gradually over time. The media trying to shame it into being progressive only breeds hostility from all sides. But it sure does get clicks for their websites.



#6102
Gileadan

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I think I can see your point. Maybe what it comes down to is a lack of creativity, or lack of desire to stray from a well worn formula. I wouldn't like to see the "male gamer" used as some kind of scapegoat - the men that I know couldn't give two craps about the gender of the protagonists; they just want to play a good game, like anybody else.

 

I do wish the small "less progressive" minority was less... vocal. 

Oh, I absolutely agree. The "less progressive" minority just needs to stop their wailing. It's not like someone is taking their toys away from them, they're just making toys for other players too now.  Also, I could stop facepalming once they shut up. That would be pretty nice too.

 

Not straying from the formula is one of the biggest problems the gaming industry has - just look at all the yearly franchises that are sometimes little more than a slightly nicer repackaging of yesteryear's goods - and I think that is a huge part of the problem here too.

 

But overall, in the spirit of this thread, they need to advertise their female protagonists more. I mean, who knew that all your characters in Titanfall could be female before you actually started configuring your characters? I sure as heck didn't.


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#6103
Puppy Love

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It's subtle in this article but the prevailing narrative among the media is gamers are backwards white males who are misogynistic, racist etc. It's not fair to label the entire community that way, especially when they can't really prove this to be the case. More women in games and in the industry is a good thing. I feel the change needs to come from within, and gradually over time. The media trying to shame it into being progressive only breeds hostility from all sides. But it sure does get clicks for their websites.

 

I dunno about that, with Gaider's quotes saying he felt that we were doing a disservice to most of the straight white males out there, and the article talking about excuses gaming companies make, I think you didn't truly read the article.  The article was talking about excuses companies make, them not really being true, and giving examples of companies that thought differently and why.  Insinuating that most straight white gamers do not think that way, and that the excuse gaming companies are making is wrong and misinformed excuses.

 

I think you're taking them saying what gaming companies claim as excuses with what the article is promoting as truth.  The article is not in support of that line of thinking and argues against it.


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#6104
RevilFox

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Another browbeating article condemning the state of the game industry.

 

*yawn*

 

If they want to play up the relevance of women, there's better ways to do it. Not labeling an entire fanbase is a good place to start. 

Now I'm curious. How would you go about it?



#6105
Guest_TrillClinton_*

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I have been involved in a twitter hashtagging discussing games called #GamerGate . The response that I have got from these journalist is that every gamer is a white, male and heterosexual person. Journalists are even going as far as insulting people it was dreadful. Given that some of the approaches to these journalists were approached in an antagonizing way I just hate the idea of saying a hobby should define someone.

So I spoke out as a black bisexual male and I told them that all people wanted was conversation. Insulting them or their hobby won't solve the problem it just makes the problem. A female friend of mine also spoke out about how they generalized the whole hobby.

They are a lot of things going on in gaming that need to be solved in the industry, a lot of problems but this isn't the way to go about it.

I even had a conversation with Sam hulick, the mass effect 3 composer. I was really star struck that he replied to me on Twitter I was omggggg marry me pls sir. Especially since he told me he is a programmer too
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#6106
Mes

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They are a lot of things going on in gaming that need to be solved in the industry, a lot of problems but this isn't the way to go about it.

 

Agreed with you there! So, how do we go about it?



#6107
Guest_TrillClinton_*

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Agreed with you there! So, how do we go about it?


The sad thing is I wish I had a good answer for that question. It is a quite complex problem since we have got so much. I think it could help if we get away of he gamer stereotype because games are do everyone.

There is also that idea that everyone that plays games is mean and hateful. Then you have people that don't know anything about the genre say "the kid that did the mass shooting was into video games. Let us look at that." Media does a horrible job of knowing anything about the demographic
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#6108
AlexiaRevan

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well a good start (and I only speak for myself as a women) , would be killing the whole myth of 'women' don't play games' . Seriously , you do know even in MMO I'm still finding dudes thinking we do not exist right ? then go about either mocking us and giving us the famous joke 'go make me a simmich or sandwich' or I get patronized and tutored like I'm a noob . 

What does the Myth 'Womens don't play games' create ? It create an atmosphere , where guys run the General Chat as they please . And everything goes . And if you dare say something , Ohh beware . You have the whole lot of them screaming 'Freedom of speech' . 


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#6109
slimgrin

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Now I'm curious. How would you go about it?

 

Best way is to get into the industry and make the game or work for the company you want. Another way is to support the game devs that are currently espousing change and being innovative. We can highlight the professional women already active in the industry, women like Jane Jensen. They can serve as role models for up and coming female devs. Or you can devote time to a blog intended to give genuine feedback and ideas to game devs. Most of what they get now is brow beating and vitriol on this topic. It'd be a nice change for them to see something that isn't a condescending diatribe, but thoughtful feedback that takes the realities of game development into consideration. Or maybe a group of female gamers could start their own youtube channel to stream games and talk about their take on the industry. There's lots of things to be done.



#6110
slimgrin

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well a good start (and I only speak for myself as a women) , would be killing the whole myth of 'women' don't play games' . Seriously , you do know even in MMO I'm still finding dudes thinking we do not exist right ? then go about either mocking us and giving us the famous joke 'go make me a simmich or sandwich' or I get patronized and tutored like I'm a noob . 

What does the Myth 'Womens don't play games' create ? It create an atmosphere , where guys run the General Chat as they please . And everything goes . And if you dare say something , Ohh beware . You have the whole lot of them screaming 'Freedom of speech' . 

 

Well those men are cowards and if developers need to start screening for behavior like that and eventually banning offenders, then so be it. People don't pay $60 so they can go online and be abused. 


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#6111
Mes

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well a good start (and I only speak for myself as a women) , would be killing the whole myth of 'women' don't play games' . Seriously , you do know even in MMO I'm still finding dudes thinking we do not exist right ? then go about either mocking us and giving us the famous joke 'go make me a simmich or sandwich' or I get patronized and tutored like I'm a noob . 

What does the Myth 'Womens don't play games' create ? It create an atmosphere , where guys run the General Chat as they please . And everything goes . And if you dare say something , Ohh beware . You have the whole lot of them screaming 'Freedom of speech' . 

 

That is awful. It's the number 1 reason I don't partake in multiplayer of any kind. And then people don't see as many women in multiplayer and that helps reinforce the idea that women don't play games. It's a pathetic cycle. I didn't even realize there was such a myth until I became an active user of the internet. :P Back when we were kids, my friends (boys AND girls) and I would play video games in each other's basements on particularly hot summer days, cans of ice cold coke in hand, and we had a blast. There was none of this moronic sexist crap.

 

And to be fair I don't really experience it in real life even now, at least not in THIS regard. The only time my gender is even noticed is when I visit video game shops. This is problematic, but it's not nearly as annoying as the crap that we encounter online. 


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#6112
AlexiaRevan

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Well those men are cowards and if developers need to start screening for behavior like that and eventually banning offenders, then so be it. People don't pay $60 so they can go online and be abused. 

They did try . Hum..there was this game , Here : http://www.themarysu...tlefield-3-lan/

And well....that is how it turn out . Developers wouldn't go scanning , because then these paying custumer will leave . That and it will cost them money to invest to get peoples to watch who is doing what . It is a freaking Jungle , all they care about is how much money they are making and leave it to the Paying customer to 'know how to behave themself' . Just like Star Wars Online has a Rating and yet it is only there to protect their own ass . Some underage kid still loggin and play the game none the less . 



#6113
Brass_Buckles

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Best way is to get into the industry and make the game or work for the company you want. Another way is to support the game devs that are currently espousing change and being innovative. We can highlight the professional women already active in the industry, women like Jane Jensen. They can serve as role models for up and coming female devs. Or you can devote time to a blog intended to give genuine feedback and ideas to game devs. Most of what they get now is brow beating and vitriol on this topic. It'd be a nice change for them to see something that isn't a condescending diatribe, but thoughtful feedback that takes the realities of game development into consideration. Or maybe a group of female gamers could start their own youtube channel to stream games and talk about their take on the industry. There's lots of things to be done.

 

Ah, so you use the old "if you don't like a lack of women in games, make your own games," argument, basically.

 

When most of the employees of game development companies are men, and often have been men for decades, it's hard for a woman to get into the industry.  Yes, there are a few companies like Bioware, and others under EA (people whine about EA but EA's companies are actually quite inclusive compared to others in the gaming industry) where a woman has a chance at getting a job.  Unfortunately, as Allan Schumacher and a few others have pointed out via articles and anecdotes, a woman with the same qualifications is often seen as less qualified than a man.  Full stop.

 

Now, part of this is actually socially understandable, because if you're a group of guys used to hanging pinups on the wall or something, it's probably going to be awkward to be expected to change your ways once you have a lady on board.  It's no longer a bro-fest.  I imagine women would feel the same if they had an all-women company and suddenly they needed to hire a man.  But being understandable does not make it acceptable to exclude someone based on their gender.  If you're embarrassed to let someone in who isn't the same gender, then maybe you're doing something there at the office you shouldn't have been doing at work anyway (the fact that you're embarrassed should tell you so).

 

And, while a few women have gone into development via indie companies, or done Kickstarter campaigns, it's not that easy to succeed.  For all the many Kickstarters and indie games that succeed, there are many more that don't.

 

Here's another thought for you - we've all been conditioned for years to think gaming is a boys' hobby.  That's what marketing tells us.  So, there are going to be noticeably fewer girls and young women who want to go into the gaming industry to develop something that is ostensibly not for them.  And why should they?  If they're not supposed to be interested in video games, why should they be interested in making them?  This is probably why you see more women developers in the Sims franchise than you do in the Call of Duty franchise.  There are also a higher-than-normal number of ladies working for BioWare in general, and Dragon Age franchise specifically, than for some other companies--which might have something to do with the fact that BioWare has long allowed for a female protagonist, and Dragon Age seems to be particularly popular among women who game.

 

And beyond that, too, to get more women into the industry, you also have to stop telling them that they naturally suck at math and science.  They don't.  In fact in their early years they often outperform boys in these fields, but then they are told repeatedly that this is not something girls are good at.  They are even actively discouraged, if they take an interest.  If you want them to appear in math and science related fields like game development, you need to start encouraging young women to pursue math and science, rather than discouraging them.

 

So long story short, it's not as simple as just saying "More women should be game developers." 

 

I also disagree strongly with your previous statement that change needs to come about gradually.  It's been coming about gradually--so gradually that there has been remarkably little change in the makeup of game protagonists (stubbly white men) or the marketing (stubbly white men) overall.  Tonally, some things have changed when dealing with female protagonists - they no longer loudly proclaim they are just as good as the men because for the most part they don't have to anymore.  But overall they are still presented more as eye candy than as characters by most companies (MMOs are particularly bad in this regard).  And they are hardly ever shown in the marketing even if you can be a woman protagonist.  It's like marketing is afraid that they might give someone cooties by showing a woman being the hero.

 

Before change can happen, someone needs to take risks--big risks.  They need to put it out there and be completely unashamed and unapologetic about it.  That's why the female protagonists in the DAI demos have been so important, and the trailer with Alix Wilton Reagan.


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#6114
AlexiaRevan

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Before change can happen, someone needs to take risks--big risks. They need to put it out there and be completely unashamed and unapologetic about it.

Kinda like GTA ? that how many time peoples pick at the game that is offencive here and there , it is still sell alot and peoples still want more ? 

And I agree . I always though that those who create the game were like the leader . You know , if you take that step and you are good at your job the rest will follow . I understand a game is a product , behind the whole thing it is money and marketing and counting numbers . But we as consumer , like it or not . These games like a movie , leave us with an imprint . Teach us something , give us something to look up to or down to . Either way , they are much much more then just a product . 

 

 

 

Here's another thought for you - we've all been conditioned for years to think gaming is a boys' hobby. That's what marketing tells us. So, there are going to be noticeably fewer girls and young women who want to go into the gaming industry to develop something that is ostensibly not for them. And why should they? If they're not supposed to be interested in video games, why should they be interested in making them? This is probably why you see more women developers in the Sims franchise than you do in the Call of Duty franchise. There are also a higher-than-normal number of ladies working for BioWare in general, and Dragon Age franchise specifically, than for some other companies--which might have something to do with the fact that BioWare has long allowed for a female protagonist, and Dragon Age seems to be particularly popular among women who game.



And beyond that, too, to get more women into the industry, you also have to stop telling them that they naturally suck at math and science. They don't. In fact in their early years they often outperform boys in these fields, but then they are told repeatedly that this is not something girls are good at. They are even actively discouraged, if they take an interest. If you want them to appear in math and science related fields like game development, you need to start encouraging young women to pursue math and science, rather than discouraging them.

So in short...change the society view of how womens are raised , what they like and such . 


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#6115
Stelae

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Another browbeating article condemning the state of the game industry.

 

*yawn*

 

If they want to play up the relevance of women, there's better ways to do it. Not labeling an entire fanbase is a good place to start. 

 

Actually, they didn't label "the entire fanbase."  They concentrated on developers, and the faulty thinking employed by them, and when they talked about fans, they exhorted fans to speak up, lest the views of the noisy, regressive minority be taken as representative of the views of the fanbase as a whole.

 

Here's the quote (emphasis mine):

 

"It falls on the player base to speak up and tell developers (and publishers too) what they would like to see," Gaider said. "I'm not only talking about female players and minorities making themselves visible and making their opinions heard (although that is important), but also to male players speaking up in support of them. Unless they really want the discontented few to speak up on their behalf, it's absolutely vital in reassuring the industry that any negative reaction to inclusivity efforts is far outweighed by the positive."

 

It's pretty clear Gaider thinks highly enough of the majority of gamers to encourage them to express their opinions. 


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#6116
Puppy Love

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So in short...change the society view of how womens are raised , what they like and such . 

 

Um...  something in that doesn't sit well with me.  Probably that it sounds a lot like telling women to behave on the opposite spectrum which isn't any better.

 

How about we change how men and women are raised with emphasis in self discovery and challenges to find things they excel at and enjoy without trying to force gender stereotypes on them...

 

You know, not artificial limit either gender and not try and force people into different box that's just as restricting.



#6117
oceanicsurvivor

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It's subtle in this article but the prevailing narrative among the media is gamers are backwards white males who are misogynistic, racist etc. It's not fair to label the entire community that way, especially when they can't really prove this to be the case. More women in games and in the industry is a good thing. I feel the change needs to come from within, and gradually over time. The media trying to shame it into being progressive only breeds hostility from all sides. But it sure does get clicks for their websites.

 

 

While it does not seem that this is what the article intended, I actually wouldn't feel that bad if it did.

 

This past week gamers threatened Anita Sarkisian out of her home, put a bomb threat out on the plane carrying the Sony Online president. There is a very loud and very toxic culture surrounding video games that needs to go away. Is it everyone? Absolutely not. But there are a lot of conversations that need to be happenign to figure out how to change this.


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#6118
Stelae

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I feel the change needs to come from within, and gradually over time. The media trying to shame it into being progressive only breeds hostility from all sides. But it sure does get clicks for their websites.

 

Gradually and over time???

 

The current crop of gaming articles is a reaction to Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian being driven from their homes by sexually explicit death threats, issued by mouth-breathing neckbeards, because they dared to be women in gaming.  I don't care whether you agree or disagree with Anita and Zoe, and I don't even care if they are good or bad people; they are getting doxxed, threatened and assaulted simply for daring to develop and critique games.  No one deserves that.  Anyone who issues such threats deserves to be heaped with shame and excoriated by any decent person.

 

The people doing these awful things claim they are doing them on behalf of gamers.  And if you think "don't issue rape and death threats to women you disagree with or don't like" is "progressive", you are part of the problem.
 


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#6119
slimgrin

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Ah, so you use the old "if you don't like a lack of women in games, make your own games," argument, basically.

 

When most of the employees of game development companies are men, and often have been men for decades, it's hard for a woman to get into the industry.  Yes, there are a few companies like Bioware, and others under EA (people whine about EA but EA's companies are actually quite inclusive compared to others in the gaming industry) where a woman has a chance at getting a job.  Unfortunately, as Allan Schumacher and a few others have pointed out via articles and anecdotes, a woman with the same qualifications is often seen as less qualified than a man.  Full stop.

 

Now, part of this is actually socially understandable, because if you're a group of guys used to hanging pinups on the wall or something, it's probably going to be awkward to be expected to change your ways once you have a lady on board.  It's no longer a bro-fest.  I imagine women would feel the same if they had an all-women company and suddenly they needed to hire a man.  But being understandable does not make it acceptable to exclude someone based on their gender.  If you're embarrassed to let someone in who isn't the same gender, then maybe you're doing something there at the office you shouldn't have been doing at work anyway (the fact that you're embarrassed should tell you so).

 

And, while a few women have gone into development via indie companies, or done Kickstarter campaigns, it's not that easy to succeed.  For all the many Kickstarters and indie games that succeed, there are many more that don't.

 

Here's another thought for you - we've all been conditioned for years to think gaming is a boys' hobby.  That's what marketing tells us.  So, there are going to be noticeably fewer girls and young women who want to go into the gaming industry to develop something that is ostensibly not for them.  And why should they?  If they're not supposed to be interested in video games, why should they be interested in making them?  This is probably why you see more women developers in the Sims franchise than you do in the Call of Duty franchise.  There are also a higher-than-normal number of ladies working for BioWare in general, and Dragon Age franchise specifically, than for some other companies--which might have something to do with the fact that BioWare has long allowed for a female protagonist, and Dragon Age seems to be particularly popular among women who game.

 

And beyond that, too, to get more women into the industry, you also have to stop telling them that they naturally suck at math and science.  They don't.  In fact in their early years they often outperform boys in these fields, but then they are told repeatedly that this is not something girls are good at.  They are even actively discouraged, if they take an interest.  If you want them to appear in math and science related fields like game development, you need to start encouraging young women to pursue math and science, rather than discouraging them.

 

So long story short, it's not as simple as just saying "More women should be game developers." 

 

I also disagree strongly with your previous statement that change needs to come about gradually.  It's been coming about gradually--so gradually that there has been remarkably little change in the makeup of game protagonists (stubbly white men) or the marketing (stubbly white men) overall.  Tonally, some things have changed when dealing with female protagonists - they no longer loudly proclaim they are just as good as the men because for the most part they don't have to anymore.  But overall they are still presented more as eye candy than as characters by most companies (MMOs are particularly bad in this regard).  And they are hardly ever shown in the marketing even if you can be a woman protagonist.  It's like marketing is afraid that they might give someone cooties by showing a woman being the hero.

 

Before change can happen, someone needs to take risks--big risks.  They need to put it out there and be completely unashamed and unapologetic about it.  That's why the female protagonists in the DAI demos have been so important, and the trailer with Alix Wilton Reagan.

 

Give me a break. You do understand TW2 made unapologetic empowered females and all you guys did was ****** about it? And then TR came about, and all everyone did is complain about rape, when the FEMALE writer had thought this through?  



#6120
AlexiaRevan

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Um...  something in that doesn't sit well with me.  Probably that it sounds a lot like telling women to behave on the opposite spectrum which isn't any better.

 

How about we change how men and women are raised with emphasis in self discovery and challenges to find things they excel at and enjoy without trying to force gender stereotypes on them...

 

You know, not artificial limit either gender and not try and force people into different box that's just as restricting.

No no , I didn't mean it in a negative way .That is what I mean when I said change the way they are raised . It is limited , forced and screwed . The way some peoples are raised , it put a cage on them . That some are able to break from , while others cannot . And it's just like you are denying them death , because being caged and suffocated is worse then dying . 

And I'm with you on the self discovery . Male or females , both need to raised and nutured into finding who they are and what they want . So they can choose what to be , and who to be . This whole stereotype of Girls must be this way and boys must that way . It's killing more then doing any good . And it is like a disease and slipping in everything around us . It is becoming a box that is shrinking and shrinking in size......



#6121
SardaukarElite

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Give me a break. You do understand TW2 made unapologetic empowered females and all you guys did was ****** about it? And then TR came about, and all everyone did is complain about rape, when the FEMALE writer had thought this through?  

 

Wait, TW2 as in The Witcher 2? I just want to make sure before I start laughing.



#6122
Brass_Buckles

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Give me a break. You do understand TW2 made unapologetic empowered females and all you guys did was ****** about it? And then TR came about, and all everyone did is complain about rape, when the FEMALE writer had thought this through?  

 

Right, because being relegated to an object that rewards players with a trophy nude card for having had sex with them is really empowering for women!

 

The best I can say about women in the Witcher series is, from the brief time I played it, the women I encountered seemed capable.  They were also very clearly there as eye candy for men, and the "conquest for a trophy" aspect, the idea that they're only there for sexual pleasure for a man, is really, really skeevy.

 

If you are here to tell women how we should be promoting women in gaming then I respectfully request you leave.  You won't like this thread.

 

We've already seen women who DARED criticize gaming's treatment of women kept out of their own homes via death and rape threats.  I mean I can't imagine why a woman might not like women being objectified for a man's pleasure what with certain subsets of people being okay with threatening to rape and murder other women!  (Oh and if you can't tell?  THat is sarcasm.)

 

So yes.  Please LEAVE.  You are not welcome here.


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#6123
Paul E Dangerously

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Gradually and over time???

 

The current crop of gaming articles is a reaction to Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian being driven from their homes by sexually explicit death threats, issued by mouth-breathing neckbeards, because they dared to be women in gaming.  I don't care whether you agree or disagree with Anita and Zoe, and I don't even care if they are good or bad people; they are getting doxxed, threatened and assaulted simply for daring to develop and critique games.  No one deserves that.  Anyone who issues such threats deserves to be heaped with shame and excoriated by any decent person.

 

The people doing these awful things claim they are doing them on behalf of gamers.  And if you think "don't issue rape and death threats to women you disagree with or don't like" is "progressive", you are part of the problem.
 

 

I suppose that's the issue - if you ignore all the legitimate criticism in the process. Things like corruption, intellectual dishonesty, and so on? Both of those situations are giant cans of worms, and are nowhere nearly as simple as some people make them to be.

 

That's always been my problem with a lot of things in general. Yes, some people do horrible things and that shouldn't be encouraged - but some will also use the whackjobs as a shield to deflect any legitimate complaints people may have against Person X or Product Y. Hell, Bioware even did this with DA2.


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#6124
oceanicsurvivor

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Give me a break. You do understand TW2 made unapologetic empowered females and all you guys did was ****** about it? And then TR came about, and all everyone did is complain about rape, when the FEMALE writer had thought this through?  

 

Women don't have to uniformally agree on what is and isn't empowering. But there is most definitely an arguement to be made for how entirely NOT progressive and flat out gross the witcher series is in its treatment of women. I enjoy the game but there is really no denying that there is a lot of messed up and problematic stuff in its treatment...really of anyone who isn't a straight dude.

 

As for Tomb Raider, I don't think you have all your facts right for instance, the female writer you are crediting worked collaboratively within the narrative outline presented to her, and the devs say that it wasn't ever supposed to be that sort of scene (debatable, but...). However, I don't really understand what comparison you are trying to make here. The witcher treated women badly, people complained. Tomb Raider, which had at least one woman working on it, also potentially treated their protagonist poorly, and people complained. While the situations are not interchangeable, as the details of the complaints and implementation of the offensive material is different, in the end, people spoke out when something was poorly handled on both occurrences. If your problem is that the inclusion of at least one women on a dev team (a narrative she was not wholly responsible for) still included problematic elements, then yeah, of course it did. Having a woman, or even a handful of women doesn't mean that nothing misogynistic will enter into the final product. Women can certainly perpetuate problematic and hurtful ideas. Having one woman around does not magically sterilize the issue.

 

 

Of course, no one who disagrees is welcome. A common SJW theme. keep it up. :)

 

Believe it or not this thread is far from a hive mind. You don't get 200 pages that way. We have had healthy and mature debates, even over things like the treatment of women in the Witcher 2.

 

And personally I prefer the term Social Justice Mage. -_-


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#6125
Steelcan

Steelcan
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All I will say about TW2 is that Triss > any female companion BioWare has written