Oh do share. Please tell me how I "don't understand" a game I beat 3 times.
Every woman in the game being a prostitute, a prize, a damsel, or eye candy is not hard to understand and has nothing to do with any morally grey storyline.
well, I'm going out on a limb here...but you are full ****? And wrong about the game.
That line of reasoning is what allows people like Zoe Quinn to falsely accuse websites of "raiding" her
I love that Quinn is being accused of falsifying some of the harassment against her, but the ex’s blog is taken as gospel truth and couldn’t be fake.
Shed some light then to us dimwitted ones... What are we not understanding?
You are biased? Has that thought ever occurred to you?
I was actually about to link her latest video since I thought it was fairly decent
...
Curses! Another disagreement! HOW IS THIS THREAD STILL STANDING!?
I haven't seen her latest one but I don't like how she misrepresents a lot of the games she talks about. Mass Effect was one of them, she railed on about how in game manshep was just called Shepard and femshep was called femshep 
she clearly never played it but she claimed it was sexist. She doesn't even play most of the games she talks about, she takes things out of context, she criticizes games that are like 30-40 years old (when our entire culture was more sexist) she lies and contradicts herself at every turn and I think she's an annoying idiot. The representation of women in video games and the treatment of female gamers is a real issue but she uses it to get money and does more damage to people's perceptions than she does good. That being said, those people harassing her are just disgusting.
I love that Quinn is being accused of falsifying some of the harassment against her, but the ex’s blog is taken as gospel truth and couldn’t be fake.
I didn't mention her "ex's" blog, he's clearly bitter and likely embellishing
You are biased? Has that thought ever occurred to you?
You understand the Witcher in a way that apparently the rest of us don't. That's fine. I'm just asking for an explanation? Ya know.. with words and sentences and stuff. Like what's this "grey" area you mentioned earlier, that sort of thing.
Maybe that's too overwhelming?
I love that Quinn is being accused of falsifying some of the harassment against her, but the ex’s blog is taken as gospel truth and couldn’t be fake.
Yeah Quinn. She's a saint. No evidence against her at all.
well, I'm going out on a limb here...but you are full ****? And wrong about the game.
Full of **** how and wrong how? I've been giving specific examples, you haven't made any points, given any examples or done anything but whine and demonstrate your inability to put yourself in someone else's shoes.
I haven't seen her latest one but I don't like how she misrepresents a lot of the games she talks about. Mass Effect was one of them, she railed on about how in game manshep was just called Shepard and femshep was called femshep
Overall, yeah. I'm skeptical at best. The vid I linked is pretty decent, but it starts by using a Dragon Age clip outta context. And The Witcher 2, which woulda been PERFECT for this vid is nowhere to be found 
. The other 25 ish minutes seem pretty spot on this time though.
Overall, yeah. I'm skeptical at best. The vid I linked is pretty decent, but it starts by using a Dragon Age clip outta context. And The Witcher 2, which woulda been PERFECT for this vid is nowhere to be found
Seeing that clip out of context turned me off immediately and some of the stuff she said I disagree with. As long as it's portrayed in the proper light, the facts are there is violence against women, and those that do it are usually portrayed as the bad guys. Pretending it doesn't happen and avoiding the issue doesn't help matters either. If it is handled in a mature and setting appropriate way it's no different than any other horrible crime that should be championed against and discouraged.
It's all a matter of how it's handled and the context of that. Hmmmm... you know what we need? Some male strip clubs in games to help balance out all the female strippers. 
@Brass_Buckles, you mentioned back on page 245. About females in Bioware helped with having a female protag. This is the only thing I want to address, I agreed with everything else mentioned. 
The reason Dragon Age, and previous titles of Bioware back to Black Isle is the game basics follow up from Dungeons and Dragons, which allows female characters. They were utilizing a system already in place till they changed to their own instead. It does help that there are female dev's but initially due to D&D itself at the very beginning had part of that. Sorry, I don't mean to discourage or something, women do help make it better, its just the female protag in original games were based on a system that had female characters. Otherwise, I do agree with your post.
I never really play shooters, mostly because of the male protagonist only option. Women can be soldiers too.
In defense of most many shooters, historically most women haven't been allowed to serve in combat-related specialities even when they could serve as soldiers. That is true even today in most modern Western militaries.
Is the shooter set in an era (or in a modern army) where woman aren't in the infantry? I think it would be unfair to criticize the game for a lack of female characters in that case, if their inclusion compromises accuracy or creates an anachronism.
That isn't to say that there can't be female soldiers in shooters of course. There is no one reason why they couldn't or shouldn't be in shooters with a futuristic setting, or in shooters with a modern feel that have more in common with an episode of 24 than say, Zero Dark Thirty. Likewise there is no reason why you couldn't have female soldiers in some historical settings, like say for example the Soviet perspective during the Second World War or the IDF in the 1980s.
Shed some light then to us dimwitted ones... What are we not understanding?
See, slimgrin is far too convinced of its own rightness to bother giving you any good arguments. I put it on ignore due to its condescending behavior and insistence on bringing up points that have already been brought up many, many times before (and argued successfully against, even).
I'm increasingly losing my patience for slimgrin types. No matter what you say, no matter how good your arguments are, you are WRONG and the slimgrins of the world are surely RIGHT. Part of it I think is that they don't want to be wrong. Nobody likes to be wrong. Changing is hard. Changing your perspectives is harder. The other reason is that they want to be condescending to someone else, they want to feel more important.
There was a time I would have rolled my eyes at the idea that women need more representation in games, and I'm a woman. After all, games are mostly for boys and if a girl wants to play them that's fine--but she'll play it whether or not she has representation. But the older I get, the more I see that they do, because I've grown more and more aware of just how much society works to keep women and minorities down. Girls need to know they can be heroes, too, even if they aren't the violent type. And here's the thing, it is not just men doing this and it never has been. Women will happily shame and criticize other women who don't fit the submissive ideal we're supposed to be. Play games? Oh my, but you're WEIRD, that's a boys'/men's hobby! You should do things like worry about fashion and makeup...
Games should be for everyone, because everyone plays them. And if we're going to make the industry less male-dominated, it needs to start now, today. Some things, like getting more women into the development fields, are going to take time. Girls who like math and science should NOT be discouraged from pursuing math and science (like I was, and like several other women in this thread have said they were). Other things can happen now. You know, like changing how games are marketed, and including female character options in multiplayer (hi there Assassin's Creed Unity).
There will always be male-specific games. There will likely also be games geared only toward women. But in between, the majority of games should be playable by all people, particularly when they are story-driven. I don't mind that Geralt is a man. And I thought, in the original Witcher, at least the women seemed capable. I could ALMOST have gotten past the fact that they were clearly meant to be objectified what with their breasts almost hanging out of their clothing and all the flesh being shown, except that, oh yeah, you could have Geralt sleep with any of them and you were "rewarded" with a trophy card for it... because women are just objects to be won, amirite?
I repeat, go away slimgrin. No one here wants your condescending attitude or your refusal to defend your opinions (which indicates you're incapable of defending your opinions in the first place, fyi). We aren't a hivemind, but we don't have time to continue explaining things we've explained hundreds of times already. If you REALLY want answers to all the stuff you've brought up, you can probably find them scattered across the many, many pages within this thread--and then feel free to come back AFTER you have read all of them, and considered everything that everyone has had to say on the topic. I do mean considered it--really considered it. Thought about it, mulled over it, pondered it, contemplated it. Then and only then would you be welcome to return, hopefully with some intelligent comments to make, rather than throwing out more insults and condescension and basically ignoring everything everyone else says in favor of saying "OMG I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG AND I AM SO RIGHT I CAN'T EVEN THINK OF ANY COUNTERARGUMENTS TO YOU BUT I AM TOTALLY RIGHT."
Seriously, my patience with these slimgrin types is totally GONE. I've been nice long enough.
In defense of
mostmany shooters, historically most women haven't been allowed to serve in combat-related specialities even when they could serve as soldiers. That is true even today in most modern Western militaries.
Is the shooter set in an era (or in a modern army) where woman aren't in the infantry? I think it would be unfair to criticize the game for a lack of female characters in that case, if their inclusion compromises accuracy or creates an anachronism.
That isn't to say that there can't be female soldiers in shooters of course. There is no one reason why they couldn't or shouldn't be in shooters with a futuristic setting, or in shooters with a modern feel that have more in common with an episode of 24 than say, Zero Dark Thirty. Likewise there is no reason why you couldn't have female soldiers in some historical settings, like say for example the Soviet perspective during the Second World War or the IDF in the 1980s.
While I understand what you are saying, and while I agree in that context, I still have no desire to play as a male. So accurate or not, I have no desire to play said game. I don't feel good in the body of a male avatar, is that simple. Is just not a game that would appeal to me, fair or not. Which is sad, I don't completely dislike shooters once I stop switching weapons or opening up options screens while in a panic while friends shoot me in the face.
(Oh yes, draw your knife that's exactly what I wanted you to do...) 
Seeing that clip out of context turned me off immediately and some of the stuff she said I disagree with. As long as it's portrayed in the proper light, the facts are there is violence against women, and those that do it are usually portrayed as the bad guys. Pretending it doesn't happen and avoiding the issue doesn't help matters either. If it is handled in a mature and setting appropriate way it's no different than any other horrible crime that should be championed against and discouraged.
It's all a matter of how it's handled and the context of that. Hmmmm... you know what we need? Some male strip clubs in games to help balance out all the female strippers.
Well, actually, much as I love BioWare, it's not perfect. Yes, women have been subjected unnecessarily to sexual violence in BioWare games. Remember the City Elf origin? Your sister (or cousin?) ends up a rape victim, and you (or your bride-to-be) also a would-be victim (I think you as the City Elf Female can avoid it, but I haven't played in a long time). There are other kinds of violent, horrible things that can be done, so why resort to rape specifically? The nobles could just as easily have had all the elves stripped and flogged publicly for daring to have any sort of celebration. That would still have been a horrible thing to happen, and it wouldn't require rape.
It actually IS a big problem that the first thing that jumps to writers' minds when they need something horrible to happen to a female character is rape or attempted rape. You don't often see her little brother being held hostage, or her husband being kidnapped--the reverse of course is true for men. Wife characters are even sometimes raped to motivate husband characters! While no, rape does not need to be totally avoided, it also should not be the go-to for traumatic things that happen to women, not when there is so much else that can happen even if you need something that is specific to women--i.e. abusive spouses/boyfriends/girlfriends, muggings, thefts, being left alone and pregnant, etc. etc. etc.
So while the video clip might be out of context and while, yes, Witcher should have been included, Sarkeesian is not totally off base. Just because I like Bioware doesn't mean that they are above criticism, in other words.
That said, Bioware is much better at doing things right and equally than sooo many other companies. Again, they aren't above criticism, and I think criticism is fine. What I don't agree with is being rude and hateful to the developers. You can disagree with someone or dislike them without going on the attack (something Sarkeesian's detractors would do well to learn, if they intend to be considered as people someday).
I felt a bit of catharsis when playing that origin as a female and being able to wreck vengeance upon those bastards in that storyline myself. As a male character sure, but as a female it was nice to be able to stick a knife in the bastards.
(I think you as the City Elf Female can avoid it, but I haven't played in a long time)
Yeah only shianni get raped . As female City Elf , you do get to see your futur husband to be killed in front of you .
It actually IS a big problem that the first thing that jumps to writers' minds when they need something horrible to happen to a female character is rape or attempted rape. You don't often see her little brother being held hostage, or her husband being kidnapped--the reverse of course is true for men. Wife characters are even sometimes raped to motivate husband characters! While no, rape does not need to be totally avoided, it also should not be the go-to for traumatic things that happen to women, not when there is so much else that can happen even if you need something that is specific to women--i.e. abusive spouses/boyfriends/girlfriends, muggings, thefts, being left alone and pregnant, etc. etc. etc.
100% with you . Some claim 'Well it has to do with Realism' . Really? yet if we ask for something realistic like a Normal female walk we get 'Hey it is a fantasy game y'know! Space Babe walk like that' .
I felt a bit of catharsis when playing that origin as a female and being able to wreck vengeance upon those bastards in that storyline myself. As a male character sure, but as a female it was nice to be able to stick a knife in the bastards.
Well, yeah, but again... was rape, specifically, necessary? Or was it just there to make the game seem more grim/dark? Could other grim, grisly things have also been done in place of rape? Why specifically rape?
Because rape, while it is a serious, real issue that should not be ignored, is still a go-to "Bad Thing" that is used as a motivator/catalyst/obstacle for female characters. Rape can also happen to men, but you hardly ever see it used in the same way against a male character. Instead, he will be robbed, or beaten, or left for dead. Not everyone who wants to harm a woman (indeed, not even all men) will instantly resort to raping her, but you wouldn't know that from what you see in books, video games, and movies. There are probably even people who'd happily beat the snot out of a person and take all his/her money and valuables but would still find the concept of raping that person morally abhorrent. That doesn't mean that beating someone and stealing all their money is somehow not a horrible thing to do, also, though.
edited to add:
Rape involves specifically sexual violence. Rape isn't intercourse; intercourse is consensual. So here's another question for you: Is rape the go-to because someone might find it sexy, or might find it more motivating because how dare someone else have sex with someone the player wants to have sex with (or is supposed to)? I repeat, why are we given rape, specifically, as a motivator/obstacle/bad thing to happen to women? Even in terms of taking away someone's consent, there are other things that can happen--the City Elf origin could even involve a non-consensual marriage if you roleplayed it that way.
By the way the questions aren't entirely rhetorical. If anyone has a good defense as to why rape, specifically, makes for a better motivator/obstacle/form of harm than literally ANY OTHER horrible thing that can happen, please do share.
I've been thinking about this tonight, and I'm wondering if I should change the title of the thread, or, given the expanded purpose of this thread over time, simply make a new thread about women in Dragon Age?
I don't think this thread, or at least, this topic, needs to leave Feedback and Suggestions. We're not just engaging in fan chitchat, for the most part, so it's not something I think should or could go over to the Story, Campaign, and Characters subforum. We've engaged in a lot of criticism and what-we-like-and-don't-like type discussions.
I don't know... what do other people think?
Hum that is a good idea . Considering we branche to others topics often . I say yes please .
In defense of
mostmany shooters, historically most women haven't been allowed to serve in combat-related specialities even when they could serve as soldiers. That is true even today in most modern Western militaries.
Is the shooter set in an era (or in a modern army) where woman aren't in the infantry? I think it would be unfair to criticize the game for a lack of female characters in that case, if their inclusion compromises accuracy or creates an anachronism.
That isn't to say that there can't be female soldiers in shooters of course. There is no one reason why they couldn't or shouldn't be in shooters with a futuristic setting, or in shooters with a modern feel that have more in common with an episode of 24 than say, Zero Dark Thirty. Likewise there is no reason why you couldn't have female soldiers in some historical settings, like say for example the Soviet perspective during the Second World War or the IDF in the 1980s.
Aren't most shooters set in the modern era (or future)? I assumed they were... I actually don't know.
Anyway I see your point for sure, but this kind of argument always makes me feel... meh. It's like... let's take historic events which denied women active participation and now try to use them to deny the women of this decade the option to play a video game as a female soldier.
Plus there were plenty of female soldiers throughout history, it's just that their stories are typically drowned out by the heroics of their male counterparts. And besides, I'm not sure inserting a few more women into a shooter-type game (or allowing the player to choose a female protagonist) is going to ruin any sense of immersion or "realism" to the general player. What it CAN do, however, is entice an entire new group of people to try the game out.
Well, yeah, but again... was rape, specifically, necessary? Or was it just there to make the game seem more grim/dark? Could other grim, grisly things have also been done in place of rape? Why specifically rape?
Because rape, while it is a serious, real issue that should not be ignored, is still a go-to "Bad Thing" that is used as a motivator/catalyst/obstacle for female characters. Rape can also happen to men, but you hardly ever see it used in the same way against a male character. Instead, he will be robbed, or beaten, or left for dead. Not everyone who wants to harm a woman (indeed, not even all men) will instantly resort to raping her, but you wouldn't know that from what you see in books, video games, and movies. There are probably even people who'd happily beat the snot out of a person and take all his/her money and valuables but would still find the concept of raping that person morally abhorrent. That doesn't mean that beating someone and stealing all their money is somehow not a horrible thing to do, also, though.
Been robbed before and been threatened with rape and murder while slammed against the wall.
Both were horrifying, but even though I lost three hundred dollars from the robbery, the mere threat of rape and murder and the dehumanizing inherent in that threat was more horrifying and traumatizing than the robbery was. Rape is used so often because it gets such a strong emotional gut reaction out of people, which things like robbery does not.
Is robbery not bad? Of course it is, but it does not get the strong reaction out of people that rape does. When I hear someone got robbed it does not invoke the same reaction in me as hearing someone got raped. One will ****** me off, the other will make me want to kill somebody.
Why specifically rape? Because it is the worst of the worst. Only thing worse would be the same happening to a child, and Bioware even had that being implied in dragon age 2.
It is precisely because rape is so recognizably horrendous that it is such a go to. It never loses it's kick and power, it's that bad.
All the other things occur in games and media as motivators, but they are largely ignored or barely recognized because they lack that same blow to the gut that rape does. If one hundred non rape scenarios occur, the one rape scenario will stand out like a beacon amongst them because the rest are just not as powerful.
I've been thinking about this tonight, and I'm wondering if I should change the title of the thread, or, given the expanded purpose of this thread over time, simply make a new thread about women in Dragon Age?
I don't think this thread, or at least, this topic, needs to leave Feedback and Suggestions. We're not just engaging in fan chitchat, for the most part, so it's not something I think should or could go over to the Story, Campaign, and Characters subforum. We've engaged in a lot of criticism and what-we-like-and-don't-like type discussions.
I don't know... what do other people think?
Hmmmm I don't know. If we create a new thread for women and DA, what would become of this one? I'd hate for it to be "demoted" to the off-topic section.
I don't know... what do other people think?
I agree
Been robbed before and been threatened with rape and murder while slammed against the wall.
Both were horrifying, but even though I lost three hundred dollars from the robbery, the mere threat of rape and murder and the dehumanizing inherent in that threat was more horrifying and traumatizing than the robbery was. Rape is used so often because it gets such a strong emotional gut reaction out of people, which things like robbery does not.
Is robbery not bad? Of course it is, but it does not get the strong reaction out of people that rape does. When I hear someone got robbed it does not invoke the same reaction in me as hearing someone got raped. One will ****** me off, the other will make me want to kill somebody.
Why specifically rape? Because it is the worst of the worst. Only thing worse would be the same happening to a child, and Bioware even had that being implied in dragon age 2.
It is precisely because rape is so recognizably horrendous that it is such a go to. It never loses it's kick and power, it's that bad.
All the other things occur in games and media as motivators, but they are largely ignored or barely recognized because they lack that same blow to the gut that rape does. If one hundred non rape scenarios occur, the one rape scenario will stand out like a beacon amongst them because the rest are just not as powerful.
Okay first of all I am so sorry that happened to you. 
Are you alright?
I think my problem with rape used as a threat/motivator in video games is that it's pretty much always directed toward women. As mentioned previously, men get raped too, but video games never utilize that as a threat toward men themselves. It's always their "woman" who is on the receiving end. It makes me extremely uncomfortable - it makes me feel like whoever is writing these scripts views women as these rape-able dolls while men are respected enough to just get mugged or beaten.
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